Tubes -vs- Class A SS...the shootout!!!

heiney9

FTGV wrote: »

Whoa chief where did I say that?

Fred, I humbly appologize :redface::frown: it seems James stated it in post #53, not you.

I wish we could all meet for a beer and have some spirited discussion face to face. That would be fun

H9

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

It's not about shootouts or what I think is better. I cannot believe as much as you and Fred have been around this stuff that you can make a blanket statement that topologies don;t matter only how well it's built. That's ridiculous.

It's a blanket statement coz there are literally hundreds of good quality uber Class AB amps that sounds as good as any type of Class A amps.

I have to Generalize that statement coz you doubt any Class A PP amps won't sound as good as Class A SE amp such as Aleph 30.

Written words in a few paragraphs never can take the place of a good face to face discussion over a few ice cold beers so as I stated before I am sitting this one out. Way to many assumptions are added by the readers in threads like these (myself included).

When it comes to the amps, I try to put less assumptions as much as possible and try to based Factual or experience as much as possible. But it's inevitable some assumptions are to be added coz of my own opinions based on the my personal experiences.

I would appreciate an answer as to why all of NP's designs using various topologies sound different if topology has nothing to do with the way something sounds. I guess he just wasted the 30 years of his life when all he had to do was make sure things were well built then all his amps would sound the same.
H9

Very simple. All amps have different presentation. Do you really think XA30.5 and XA60.5, XA100.5, XA160.5, XA200.5 all sounds the same even if you use SPL meter to measure the SPL to be the same using all these amps?

I guess you need to look pass the point how and why amps do have different presentations even when most parts used are the same. For an instance, the bias point is different for different output power. Another one, the lower power amps requires less output transistors so better matching can be done and it sounds better coz fewer parts are used (according to KISS again).

Another one? Sure, you only need 1-10Watts for most programs materials for everyday listening in small to moderate room and every watts count? The High Biased Class AB amps have a few of these watts in Class A so it covers that area of the blanket?

The main difference between X and X.5 series is that NP increased the biasing of .5 series to 10 folds and it runs hotter. So, it should sound a bit different from the 1st series. But is that good for everyone? May be not everyone cup of tea for sure.

FTGV

heiney9 wrote: »

Fred, I humbly appologize :redface::frown: it seems James stated it in post #53, not you.

I wish we could all meet for a beer and have some spirited discussion face to face. That would be fun

H9

Cool,but from the umpteen horse kicking sessions we have had you should know better.

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

It's a blanket statement coz there are literally hundreds of good quality uber Class AB amps that sounds as good as any type of Class A amps.

I have to Generalize that statement coz you doubt any Class A PP amps won't sound as good as Class A SE amp such as Aleph 30..

So you believe SS amps can sound exactly like tube amps? There are characteristics beyond bias point that SE amps produce that a push/pull A/B can't produce. That's not at all a comment on which sounds better.

megasat16 wrote: »

Very simple. All amps have different presentation. Do you really think XA30.5 and XA60.5, XA100.5, XA160.5, XA200.5 all sounds the same even if you use SPL meter to measure the SPL to be the same using all these amps?..

What , you are the one that said topology doesn't determine the sound only how well it's built (see the last sentence in post #53). Now you are switching gears and using the word"presentation"? WTH, these amps are the same basic topology so yes to a certain degree within the limits of there output they should sound similar at the same output.

megasat16 wrote: »

Another one? Sure, you only need 1-10Watts for most programs materials for everyday listening in small to moderate room and every watts count? The High Biased Class AB amps have a few of these watts in Class A so it covers that area of the blanket?

I don't agree in every case that just because "it covers" that area it's the same as SE class A.

megasat16 wrote: »

The main difference between X and X.5 series is that NP increased the biasing of .5 series to 10 folds and it runs hotter. So, it should sound a bit different from the 1st series. But is that good for everyone? May be not everyone cup of tea for sure.

Actually there's more to it than that and I didn't ask about the X and X.5 I asked about the X vs. XA series which are different topologies and sound different even though the parts and build quality are pretty muc identical.

James, you dance around like Ali in the ring. You never directly answer my questions and then you start throwing words like presentation when I asked about topology..........it's very hard to follow your posts since you are always adding a new twist to your explainations.

H9

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

James, What about the First Watt stuff? You don't consider using Jfets or transformer coupled outputs a different topology?

You said above as long as it's well made topologies don't influence sound. Perhaps we define the word "topology" differently. I tend to define it very narrowly. If you define it very broadly then there's where our disconnect is.

H9

P.s. I edited to read James rather than Fred...........my mistake

JFets are still transistors so everything about Transistors applies to them too. Sure, there are special considerations to be taken with FETs and different characteristic to each type of transistors. Understanding them and using these characteristics to the most possible advantages means is what a good designer like NP different from a regular one.

Transformer coupling is the way to make consistent sound across the load regardless of the load amplifier. But in case of the SE and Early PP Class A design, transformer are required to remove DC from the output.

Transformer coupling is advantages coz of it provides more consistent sound but less advantages when it comes to output power. You are restricted to the ratings of the output transformer regardless of whether you have 1000W capable Class A output stage or not.

Another thing is that the transformer makes the sound of it's own and it's not desirable to everyone.

Nope, topology doesn't influence the sound in every cases. Sure, it does and in most cases but not in every cases. That's what it's about.

Especially the SE or PP Class A or Class AB. In any well designed Class AB amplifiers, the first few watts are mostly Class A so you'll hear what you need to hear. And the more you crank the volume, the less your hearing ability to discern the minute details between Class A and Class AB amps.

There are really Nice Class A Super Powerful amps but then, there are some really Nice Class AB super powerful amps. Again, you can put them up side by side and listen them at low volume, moderate volume and high volume to really come up with very small difference. In most cases, the difference is the presentation of an amp and not coz the topology.

Having said that, if you only need to use 1-10Watts everyday, you might as well stick to Class A amps but I sometimes want to crank the volume.

heiney9

FTGV wrote: »

Cool,but from the umpteen horse kicking sessions we have had you should know better.

Yeah, I should, but I'm at work trying to juggle reading the forum, responding and getting work done.

H9

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

Nope, topology doesn't influence the sound in every cases. Sure, it does and in most cases but not in every cases. That's what it's about.

Are you a politician?

megasat16 wrote:

The sound of an amp is not based on what class or topology it uses, it's based on how well it's made.

Please make up your mind.....nope it doesn't......sure it does.....:biggrin:

H9

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

In most cases, the difference is the presentation of an amp and not coz the topology..

We will have to agree to disagree

megasat16 wrote: »

Having said that, if you only need to use 1-10Watts everyday, you might as well stick to Class A amps but I sometimes want to crank the volume.

I can easily get 105+ dB and 110+ dB peaks from the Aleph at my listening position so no worries there. I have a medium sized room and sit about 6-7 feet away. I am more comfortable around 85-95 dB, even when listening to Ozzy

H9

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

So you believe SS amps can sound exactly like tube amps? There are characteristics beyond bias point that SE amps produce that a push/pull A/B can't produce. That's not at all a comment on which sounds better.

Let's not get carried away to Tube vs. SS, shall we?

What , you are the one that said topology doesn't determine the sound only how well it's built (see the last sentence in post #53). Now you are switching gears and using the word"presentation"? WTH, these amps are the same basic topology so yes to a certain degree within the limits of there output they should sound similar at the same output.

You probably misunderstood my intent coz I missed to type this line in my previous post. It should makes more sense now than ever.

"Even in the same topology, all amps have different presentation. It's not just between different topology, not all amps sound the same even within the same Class and toplogy." Want to ask Mr. Pass about it?

I don't agree in every case that just because "it covers" that area it's the same as SE class A.

Ask any amp reviewer about it. The Aleph 30 and Aleph 60 will certainly have different presentations regardless of what you think!

Actually there's more to it than that and I didn't ask about the X and X.5 I asked about the X vs. XA series which are different topologies and sound different even though the parts and build quality are pretty muc identical.

I am saying about X.5 and XA.5 series. The XA.5 series increases biasing from inital X series and should sound very similar to the XA.5 series at low levels. It'll sound different at higher levels but not necessary means it's BAD. Heck, you might not even know the difference. The dynamics comes into play more often than resolution at high voulme.

James, you dance around like Ali in the ring. You never directly answer my questions and then you start throwing words like presentation when I asked about topology..........it's very hard to follow your posts since you are always adding a new twist to your explainations.

H9

How so? :biggrin:

fishbones

You three amigos sound like a married couple! Heiney had a good idea....have some beers and talk it over? ...Once you have a few in ya, top it off with a good cage-fighting match, see who comes out on top?!?! :biggrin: I'll even host it at my house!

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

Are you a politician?

Arr...you making me feels bad. You know? There are always exceptions and you can't blanket everything under the Sun? I put a fineprint there to make sure it's covered.

Please make up your mind.....nope it doesn't......sure it does.....:biggrin:

H9

You are confused coz you

1. Wants definite answer.

and

2. Doesn't want a generalization or blanketed answer

and

3. Your experience always refer to only one amp


So, it's kinda hard to give you a real 100% definite answer thus I have to play like a politician.

But my non-politician answer, Nope, topology doesn't always make any difference (especially between Class A SE or Class A PP or High Biased Class AB). Final Answer. :biggrin:

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

Ask any amp reviewer about it. The Aleph 30 and Aleph 60 will certainly have different presentations regardless of what you think!

I never ever talked about "presentations" you brought that up out of the blue. Presentation does NOT equal topology. The 30 and the 60 aren't apples to apples because the 60's are mono blocks so they won't share the same power supply and other internals, but yes I would expect them to sound like single ended class A amplifiers. Especially at lower levels. There would be a point where the 30 would reach it's limits and I'd expect the 60's to give more of the same thing.

H9

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

But my non-politician answer, Nope, topology doesn't always make any difference (especially between Class A SE or Class A PP or High Biased Class AB). Final Answer. :biggrin:

I never said topology was the only factor.....again each of us can only go by the black and white words on the screen. Never meant to imply you can use inferior parts and/or poor design and just because it was a certain topology it would sound good or better, etc. Frankly, I thought it was a given that preimium parts and design should be common to all. Didn't think I had to spell that out, especially after all the interaction we've had.

H9

heiney9

I used NP as an example because he uses multiple types of topologies but the quality of parts and design are constant, yet all his topologies sound different.

H9

heiney9

Beat it spammer

fishbones

Never fails. When a thread is lighting up with alot of viewers and action, the slug spammers come out.

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

I never ever talked about "presentations" you brought that up out of the blue. Presentation does NOT equal topology.

H9

Presentation Does Not Equal to how an amplifier sounds?

To sums all up,

1. Same Topology doesn't mean you always got the same sounding or presentation from different amp within the same topology.

2. The presentation (the sound) of an amplifier is not 100% based on the toplogy or Class

3. Even Mr. Pass designed amps within XA series or Aleph Series can sound different which uses the same topology. The X series amps can sound very good as with XA series. It's where the presentation and overall performance of the amp comes into play when you looked pass Class A topology. It's a matter of choosing your poison.

4. All in All, Amplifiers are chosen based on the overall presentation and matching with your speakers and everything else before it. Synergy can be a pita when u are saying about Sound Quality regardless of Topology or how well the amp is made.

There are good sounding Class AB or PP Class A amp that sounds as good or better than the Aleph 30 or any Class A SE amps. It's not about Topology. It's about how the amp sounds for you. It's either you like it or you hate it.

heiney9 wrote: »

I have yet to hear any other amplifier that "sounds" like a single ended class A amplifier. And, no I haven't listened to every amplifier made. There is something special about a Pure Class A amplifier which I find especially pleasing and intoxicating. The cost, heat and hardware certainly mean they aren't for everyone. And there are numerous rigs they aren't the best choice for such as very, very power hungry speakers or perhaps a huge listening roon or someone who ultimately cares only about reaching ear bleeding spl's. It just works very, very well in my system and the synergy is incredible. I have never needed anything more than the 30wpc it provides and I have yet to really see the limits of the amplifier.........and I've tried.

H9

heiney9 wrote: »

Wow!!! I completely disagree!! Each topology sounds completely different.

H9

heiney9 wrote: »

you can make a blanket statement that topologies don;t matter only how well it's built. That's ridiculous.


I would appreciate an answer as to why all of NP's designs using various topologies sound different if topology has nothing to do with the way something sounds. I guess he just wasted the 30 years of his life when all he had to do was make sure things were well built then all his amps would sound the same.

H9

heiney9 wrote: »

Never said we all had to have the same taste, I said there are difference's in sound and they can be based on topology chosen. I didn;t mean to imply that was the SINGULAR thing.

You guys read way too much into posts sometimes.

H9

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

I used NP as an example because he uses multiple types of topologies but the quality of parts and design are constant, yet all his topologies sound different.

H9

So is everything within the same toplogy? Isn't First Watt, XA and Aleph sound different?

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

Presentation Does Not Equal to how an amplifier sounds?

Dammit James, that is NOT what I wrote or what I meant!!!!:mad: This is why I can't have a dialog with you. You quoted what I wrote.

You used the word presentation, I was using the word topology. You started using presentation in place of topology in your dialog and I was pointing out that I don't think presentation and topology can be used interchageably!

This is what I wrote!!

Originally Posted by heiney9
I never ever talked about "presentations" you brought that up out of the blue. Presentation does NOT equal topology.
H9

GEEZ!

I am done here because there is a Communication Breakdown

H9

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

So is everything within the same toplogy? Isn't First Watt, XA and Aleph sound different?

YES

That's my entire point, they all sound different because of different topologies. I am exhausted trying to discuss this with you.

H9

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

Presentation Does Not Equal to how an amplifier sounds?

To sums all up,

1. Same Topology doesn't mean you always got the same sounding or presentation from different amp within the same topology.

2. The presentation (the sound) of an amplifier is not 100% based on the toplogy or Class

3. Even Mr. Pass designed amps within XA series or Aleph Series can sound different which uses the same topology. The X series amps can sound very good as with XA series. It's where the presentation and overall performance of the amp comes into play when you looked pass Class A topology. It's a matter of choosing your poison.

4. All in All, Amplifiers are chosen based on the overall presentation and matching with your speakers and everything else before it. Synergy can be a pita when u are saying about Sound Quality regardless of Topology or how well the amp is made.

There are good sounding Class AB or PP Class A amp that sounds as good or better than the Aleph 30 or any Class A SE amps. It's not about Topology. It's about how the amp sounds for you. It's either you like it or you hate it.

1) never said differently, but they are much more alike than different.

2) never said differently

3) not really, but I suppose if you really wanted to argue that.

4) that idea was never part of the discussion until you just brought it up out of the blue. I agree, but until this moment no one was saying anything one way or another about that particular point.

As far as the rest you keep saying other amps are better than the Aleph 30, I have never said the Aleph was the be all end all amplifier. All your posts are hell bent on pointing out that there are better amps out there than the Aleph, I don't disagree. Not sure why you keep pointing that out. My only point was different topolgies can sound different and most would recognize a SE Class A vs. a high bias A/B. Not every one in every rig in every situation but most times. Not commenting on good vs. bad, just that certain topolgies have certain inherent characteristics that can't be designed out.

And yes, topology has a lot to do with how an amp sounds, not everything, but a lot espcially if all other things are pretty much equal. I'll point to NP's aresnal of amp topologies that sound different side by side.

H9

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

Dammit James, that is NOT what I wrote or what I meant!!!!:mad: This is why I can't have a dialog with you. You quoted what I wrote.

You used the word presentation, I was using the word topology. You started using presentation in place of topology in your dialog and I was pointing out that I don't think presentation and topology can be used interchageably!

This is what I wrote!!

Originally Posted by heiney9
I never ever talked about "presentations" you brought that up out of the blue. Presentation does NOT equal topology.
H9

GEEZ!

I am done here because there is a Communication Breakdown

H9

Brock, the communication is perfectly fine. It's just that you and I are playing hide and seek? I am tired of it as much as I am enjoying it.

I am sure you are too! So, let's beat this dead horse a few times more to make sure it's really dead and never coming back to haunt us again? :biggrin:

heiney9 wrote: »

YES

That's my entire point, they all sound different because of different topologies. I am exhausted trying to discuss this with you.

H9

But But....this is what you think, right? They sounds the same at lower levels but would be different at higher levels? Arr...I betcha they sounds different at lower levels too for better or worse.

You are saying that SE sound like SE? What exactly does it suppose to mean? :eek:

heiney9 wrote: »

The 30 and the 60 aren't apples to apples because the 60's are mono blocks so they won't share the same power supply and other internals, but yes I would expect them to sound like single ended class A amplifiers. Especially at lower levels. There would be a point where the 30 would reach it's limits and I'd expect the 60's to give more of the same thing.

H9

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

As far as the rest you keep saying other amps are better than the Aleph 30, I have never said the Aleph was the be all end all amplifier. All your posts are hell bent on pointing out that there are better amps out there than the Aleph, I don't disagree. Not sure why you keep pointing that out.
H9

megasat16 wrote: »

There are good sounding Class AB or PP Class A amp that sounds as good or better than the Aleph 30 or any Class A SE amps. It's not about Topology. It's about how the amp sounds for you. It's either you like it or you hate it.

Arr...this is where the communications breakdown begins. I am not taking a shot at Aleph or Pass Amps. You probably taken a bit offense there? :redface:

I am not hell bent onto anything to say what is better than what.

On the contrary, I am under impression you are saying SE is the only thing that sounds good in Class A and everything Push-Pull is Class AB or High Biased Class A can't sound as good as SE?

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

But But....this is what you think, right? They sounds the same at lower levels but would be different at higher levels? Arr...I betcha they sounds different at lower levels too for better or worse.

You are saying that SE sound like SE? What exactly does it suppose to mean? :eek:

Yes SE is SE is SE is SE........ and yes they would sound different at higher levels and I believe I stated the point at which the 30 would reach it output limit the 60's would give you more (meaning higher output) before they reached their limit.

So to sum up the 60's have double the output (relatively speaking) so at the point the 30 would reach it output limit, the 60's should play better at higher output until they reach their limit.

Now because the 60's are mono's even at lower levels one might discern a few little things that the 60's do differently, but I'd expect them to have the same basic characteristic sound.

H9

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

On the contrary, I am under impression you are saying SE is the only thing that sounds good in Class A and everything Push-Pull is Class AB or High Biased Class A can't sound as good as SE?

I don't believe I've ever said that. I said, for the last time, Single Ended Class A has a distinct sonic characteristic and A/B has a distinct sonic characteristic. I'm sure there are designs that blur these lines very well in some cases. But there are inherent sonic characteristics of all the different types of topologies that make them unique and it's about what you like and what you need for your personal sound.

I have yet to hear (me personally) an A/B amp that compares to the SE class A amp I currently own. Not stating what is better, I'm stating for the sound I prefer in my system for my ears.

Also, I haven't auditioned a lot of amps compared to the plethora of amps out there.

H9

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

Yes SE is SE is SE is SE........

Please Explain exactly what you mean?

and yes they would sound different at higher levels and I believe I stated the point at which the 30 would reach it output limit the 60's would give you more (meaning higher output) before they reached their limit.

So to sum up the 60's have double the output (relatively speaking) so at the point the 30 would reach it output limit, the 60's should play better at higher output until they reach their limit.

Now because the 60's are mono's even at lower levels one might discern a few little things that the 60's do differently, but I'd expect them to have the same basic characteristic sound.

H9

Brock, I wouldn't be surprised that you'll find it a bit odd when I say this. Even though Aleph 30 and 60 shares many things common, their low level resolution and sound will be somewhat different. It'll be noticeably different but I can't say which one is better than the other.

When you are saying Characteristics of sound, I believe you are referring to the good qualities. How about the bad quality? Can you hear something bad or less good sounding amplifier?

heiney9

megasat16 wrote: »

Brock, I wouldn't be surprised that you'll find it a bit odd when I say this. Even though Aleph 30 and 60 shares many things common, their low level resolution and sound will be somewhat different. It'll be noticeably different but I can't say which one is better than the other.

When you are saying Characteristics of sound, I believe you are referring to the good qualities. How about the bad quality? Can you hear something bad or less good sounding amplifier?

Again it's apples to oranges since the 30 is a stereo amp and the 60's are mono amps. That right there will introduce some differences. But no, since they are identical topologies I would expect the sonic characteristics to be very similar.

See James, I can;t follow you..........in one sentence you state somewhat different and then you follow it up in the next sentence talking about the exact same thing and say it's noticeably different.

Those two words have very different meanings in my mind and I can't follow all your responses because in my mind you constantly contradict yourself.

I'm sorry, not trying to be an ****...........I am confused because how can the same thing be somewhat different and noticableably different at the same time? I apologize if English is not your first language, I am not trying to make fun.....I just can't follow when you're all over the board. :redface:

H9

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

Again it's apples to oranges since the 30 is a stereo amp and the 60's are mono amps. That right there will introduce some differences. But no, since they are identical topologies I would expect the sonic characteristics to be very similar.

See James, I can;t follow you..........in one sentence you state somewhat different and then you follow it up in the next sentence talking about the exact same thing and say it's noticeably different.

Those two words have very different meanings in my mind and I can't follow all your responses because in my mind you constantly contradict yourself.

I'm sorry, not trying to be an ****...........I am confused because how can the same thing be somewhat different and noticableably different at the same time? I apologize if English is not your first language, I am not trying to make fun.....I just can't follow when you're all over the board. :redface:

H9

Can I put it like this? It's somewhat different but noticeable! You'll hear the difference between these two amps using the SPL meter to adjust the speaker output to be at the same level!

I have to put it like that coz somewhat different in sound may be noticeable or not noticeable at all. It's not coz of my poor English proficiency. :biggrim:

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

Those two words have very different meanings in my mind and I can't follow all your responses because in my mind you constantly contradict yourself.

H9

megasat16 wrote: »

Even though Aleph 30 and 60 shares many things common, their low level resolution and sound will be somewhat different. It'll be noticeably different but I can't say which one is better than the other.

Brock, I think you'll understand better if you read again. The word "somewhat different" implies to not only sound, but the low level resolution also.

And then, I give an emphasis on the word "somewhat different" by saying it'll be noticeable different (in sound).

heiney9

SE class A amps don't have as controlled bass response as a push/pull design. I've noticed the bass to be very good with the Aleph, but if you are looking for extremely tight "robotic" bass, a SE design probably won't be to your liking.

They tend to be low on power output (rated watts) so if you are using a very difficult load and want to fill a large room with high spl, it's not going to happen. For most everyday types of speakers in small to medium rooms, the Aleph, as an example has no issues. Put a large pair of Maggies in a large room on the Aleph and try to reach a higher spl, forget it.

They run very hot and consume a fair amount of energy just sitting there.

Expensive hardware if done correctly.

H9

P.s. you can buy high power single ended class A amps, but they cost a fortune, weigh a ton and put out a lot of heat and use a lot of electricity.