Tubes -vs- Class A SS...the shootout!!!
Comments
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Brock,
I am also a Class A guy but I don't get stuck on SE mode.
The problem is all things you said about SE is also True for some PP Class A or High Biased Class AB amps as you called it.
Give some thought about it?
I don't want to be hated coz trying to change your opinions on it.
I also think even Papa Pass can't make you come to agree with the terms. Coz for you, SE is Always Class A and nothing else. That is Universally True in the beginning but things have moved onto (other directions) since then. You just stuck in that Universal Truth!Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
James, no hate here so no worries there.
I'll share a little secret, the only push/pull amp I want own is Papa's too! I will be a Pass'er for life. Perhaps that's a little one dimensional but my next amp will be a XA30.5 unless I win the lottery and have a larger listening room in my mansion.
For me when someone uses the term pure class A, single ended is the only answer, period.
This has been fun, yet again........but I believe we've beat it to death even though it never recovered from last time....poor horsey.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I tried, really tried to follow this argument...then my eyes glazed over and I couldn't read the last page or so of posts...anybody got a summary? Mostly what I got out of it is one guy's orange tastes better than the other guys apple...Steve Carlson
Von Schweikert VR-33 speakers
Bel Canto eVo2i integrated amp
Bel Canto PL-2 universal disc player
Analysis Plus Oval Nine speaker cables and Copper Oval-In Micro interconnects
VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables
Polk Monitor 10B speakers, retired but not forgotten -
You three amigos sound like a married couple! Heiney had a good idea....have some beers and talk it over? ...Once you have a few in ya, top it off with a good cage-fighting match, see who comes out on top?!?! :biggrin: I'll even host it at my house!
Thanks Troy! I will take up on your offer when I make a trip to FL in the future.
Who knows? We can probably host WWF show from your house at the same time. :biggrin:Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
James, no hate here so no worries there.
Whew....that was close.
:biggrin:
I'll share a little secret, the only push/pull amp I want own is Papa's too! I will be a Pass'er for life. Perhaps that's a little one dimensional but my next amp will be a XA30.5 unless I win the lottery and have a larger listening room in my mansion.
Good Luck Brock! I am hoping you'll win a lottery soon! Don't forget to change from SE to PP when that happens.
For me when someone uses the term pure class A, single ended is the only answer, period.
This has been fun, yet again........but I believe we've beat it to death even though it never recovered from last time....poor horsey.
H9
Yep, I know the dead horse is a dead horse and poses no danger. I like to beat a few more rounds next time. What says you?I tried, really tried to follow this argument...then my eyes glazed over and I couldn't read the last page or so of posts...anybody got a summary? Mostly what I got out of it is one guy's orange tastes better than the other guys apple...
From what posts you got lost? H9 or I might be able to help with it but chances are you'll get lost a bit longer than you already had.
Simply put, it's not about oranges or apples tastes better per say. It's about what you like and what sounds good to you.
The very short meaning of my post should imply "Oranges or Applies, one is not necessarily better or worse than the others, you have to try both and pick what you like."Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Wow I stepped away for a few hours and you gents typed up storm.I have some catching up to do.
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Wow I stepped away for a few hours and you gents typed up storm.I have some catching up to do.
Fred, you not missing anything. We still have the dead horse tied down and still dead. :biggrin: Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Well if it so much as flinches have your keypad at the ready.We still have the dead horse tied down and still dead. :biggrin::biggrin: -
Well if it so much as flinches have your keypad at the ready.:biggrin:
Standing by! I am celebrating "Osama's bite the bullet day" today.
Ironically, it coincides with "let's beat the dead horse day"!:biggrin: Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
No idea what happened......I like shootouts and that is all! Analog Source: Rega P3-24 Exact 2 w/GT delrin platter & Neo TT-PSU Digital Source: Lumin T2 w/Roon (NUC) DAC: Denafrips Pontus II Phono Preamp: Rega Aria MK3 Preamp: Rogue RP-7 Amp: Pass X150.8 Speakers: Joseph Audio Perspective 2, Audio Physic Tempo Plus Cables: Morrow M4 ICs & Audio Art SC-5 ePlus, Shunyata PCs Misc: Shunyata Hydra Delta D6, VTI rack, GIK acoustic panels
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Holy Moly fellas, I apologize about creating a debate as heated as this. I just asked what I thought was a simple question. The plain, hard fact is, that Mark was right. I really do not care. The end result as to what hits my ears is the only thing I care about. It was just a case of simple curiosity, is all.
As for the other thread? I thought I had posted one but I haven't seen it yet when I hit "new posts". I'll be sure to check it out.
Anyway, let's move on. If y'all would like to debate this further or add some more insight, please go to the other thread. That said, I have some good news. The amplifier came in tonight. It's sitting 3 feet away from me. I'm gonna cruise the forum for a stint and then move on to plugging her in when the wife is done watching TV.
Thanks for your answers, it looks like I have much to learn about Class A and the different designs. In the meantime, the end result as to what hits my ears will be the only thing that matters!~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
class A, single ended... and now appearing in my living room (as of Sunday night)...
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Soon Mr Hardy I will see that glow close my eyes and enjoy the tunes...nice pic
Can we start a class D vs D thread or an ICE vs ICE thread and we'll throw in some B or something:biggrin::biggrin:JK2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a -
Yeah, Tripath versus ICEpower!Steve Carlson
Von Schweikert VR-33 speakers
Bel Canto eVo2i integrated amp
Bel Canto PL-2 universal disc player
Analysis Plus Oval Nine speaker cables and Copper Oval-In Micro interconnects
VH Audio Flavor 4 power cables
Polk Monitor 10B speakers, retired but not forgotten -
Mark (mhardy)
Beautiful Tube Glow Picture. Thought I'd share some glowing pic too. Both the amp and preamp runs so hot the whole chassis glows in the dark. Nothing sort of like Tubes but it's more like the watches phosphorus glows.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Congrat's, mrh. Enjoy the music.
OK, here's a warming up period observation of the amp. There are quite a bit of differences and please keep in mind that I have only had her plugged in and running for about an hour or so.
I have a date with the pillow here shortly, so this will be brief and most likely segmented but here's my early observations nonetheless....
The piano seems to be more than a tad bit more precise. In texture and realism. Basically, more enjoyable. One word to describe this amp would be quiet. The sound stage is widened ever so slightly. Some sounds still sound busy/noisy but in my experience, this is attributed to the warm-up period so take that with a grain of salt. The organs are fantastic. The texture and feeling is definitely there for the taking.
It's a completely different amp compared to the Anthems. Some of the frequencies sound the same, some more apparent. On that note, some seem to be hidden or more relaxed. There is more of a slide off the top end and it seems a bit more clinical. The mid range and vocals are still fluid. Overall, the rig is more transparent. Roll off of reverb more clinical and not as natural. Dynamics are slightly increased. Top end seems a bit relaxed.
Now to the most noticeable of all of the aforementioned. When comparing the two? [tubes -vs- SS?] I'm in a debate with myself as to whether or not there is less coloration or more. Something is different and if I had more time, I could explain it but for now......some frequencies, instruments, vocals [the music, basically] seem to be less than what I had. Some, more. Most, the same......but slightly different.
That's it for now. I will tell you this. For an amp to be warming up? She sounds good. It's different, that's for sure. Is it a bad thing? Absof'nlutey not. Just different. All of this at about 18 - 20 out of 100 on the volume knob.
More later. Have a good evening!~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
One more thing. Things seem to be more even. I'll explain tomorrow. Some of you may know what I mean.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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The warm up shouldn't be night and day. It should yield subtle differences that are apparent but it's not going to be like two completely different amplifiers.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Your statements match my observations so far. I was surprised when I woke up this morning and not much had changed. Granted, I only had time to listen to a song or two but nothing dramatically changed at all. This was not the case with the Odyssey Stratos. That sucker took a good three days to warm up and the sound/imaging was all over the place [not in a good way] until day three.
So, I get home and I have some time to listen to some music at some good levels. The first thing I noticed was the imaging was slightly off. I wondered if I had something set up wrong so I went about troubleshooting. Even though I don't remember moving the speakers, apparently one or both of them got moved somehow. After spending some time dialing them in, the amp took on a completely different imaging presentation. Now, I have to admit, I was NOT expecting this.
The Tyler's took on a presentation that is like that of the SDA's. I sat down to listen to Dire Straights XRCD of Ride Across the River. Throughout the song, everyone was were they were supposed to be with a slight change of depth [increased] and it seemed as if the entire sound stage had risen up about a half a foot when compared to the Anthem1 tube amps. That part really didn't surprise me as I have heard different components within the rig do that before. Where I was completely surprised was when the crickets came in. I kept looking at the fireplace thinking that there was something in there making noise and then it dawned on me that the sound wasn't coming from there, it was actually coming from the other side of the fireplace.
So I paid a little bit more attention at this point and went in to critical listening mode. I'll be damned, the sound stage had blossomed out beyond the speakers in almost every direction but down. There was sound eminating from directly to my left and right. Thing is, on the left, there is no wall. I would expect that from the right side where there is a wall but not on the side where there is no wall. Basically, the sounds were like that of the SDA's. From all over the place.
Looking back at last nights quick evaluation, I can see why I said some of the things I said. Once the issue with the speakers was resolved, the sound got much more enjoyable.
That said, it's still an SS amplifier and I can definitely tell that it is. Everything else I'm using in the path right now has all tubes but I can still tell that this is an SS amp. Some things are still a tad bit more clinical, some of the frequencies are still different and the warmth? While still there, the rig isn't as warm as it was with the Anthem's. The fluidity is surprisingly still there, imaging palpable and the top end has about the same sound, with just a tad less roll off but at a trade of more texture.
The best attribute of the amplifier when comparing it to the Anthems would be this; in a word, transparency. Man, the Tyler's have flat out disappeared. I was not expecting this.
Now, with all of that said, I still have to do my tweaking. I haven't swapped anything but one power cord from the old tube amp to the new SS amp. I'm just offering my observations based upon the amp being slapped in last night. I'll fiddle with that as time allows and get back to you with the results.
In conclusion for tonight. This is gonna be a close shootout because each type of amp [tubes -vs- a (questionable) Class A SS amp] both have there own attributes and deficiencies. Right now, just due to the speakers being so daggum transparent, I'm leaning toward the Musical Fidelity. Well, that and the piano playback is unreal.
All observations have been made with a variety of music played at low to slightly above normal listening levels. I'll see if I can find some time this week to crank this bad boy up to test how she does at concert levels. That's all for now and I gotta admit, this is fun!~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Alright, here goes. My explanation of even. What I'm referring too is the overall frequencies. It seems as this amplifier is more linear than any amplifier I have had in the rig to date.One more thing. Things seem to be more even. I'll explain tomorrow. Some of you may know what I mean.
The best way to describe it would be that there is no accentuation of some frequencies, while there are no reductions with others. Does that make sense? Across the board, it seems as if the playback is equal. It's as if I'm hearing for the first time what the recording engineer actually wanted on well recorded music.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
The 'transparency' thing is a hallmark of Class A bias IME - heck even the vintage solid state Yamaha amps that featured selectable Class A operating points (e.g., the CA-800; 15 wpc in Class A) display noticeably more neutral and transparent presentation in Class A compared to their Class AB operating points. Jeepers, the Yamahas are push-pull...
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Why is this not an important point for everyone? Damnit, had I known that from the get-go my entire audio path would be different. I have been chasing that since the beginning of my audio journey.
*bangs head against wall HARD*
Is there any other major little tidbit of information I need to know? ARRRGH!!!~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
The first 25 watts on my BBQ is Class A and for 95% of my listening, at reference level, that's all I use. It's cool to see you stepping up your game Tom.....fun huh?CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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Horror of horrors,:eek:despite that my CA800 manages to sound pretty good also.mhardy6647 wrote: »Jeepers, the Yamahas are push-pull... -
But But....What Tom is experiencing is a good Class AB Integrated.
I supposed it will only gets better with Push-Pull Class A.
And it'll get super better with Single Ended Class A? :eek::eek::eek:Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Oh, man it's a blast.......It's cool to see you stepping up your game Tom.....fun huh?
I've been on this board for what? 4 or 5 years now and I'm sure everyone has seen my signature. Well, that's what I'm looking for. You can't gain that with speakers that aren't transparent. I guess it's my fault for not asking the right questions but daggum, I feel somebody should have pointed this out to me.
I will say this, I'm definitely interested in what a pure class A has to offer. It was mentioned before the heated discussion that there are a limited amount of true/pure Class A amps out there. Well, spill the beans, gentlemen. What are they?
This bald headed audio nut just learned a VERY valuable lesson tonight. Those that want great sound? Pay attention.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
I doubt I'm working it more than the 15 watts or so. It seems to me so far in my evaluations/observations that the sound degrades to a point when I turn it up past a certain level, so I have been keeping it at "the" optimum point for accurate reproduction of music with this amp, thus far.But But....What Tom is experiencing is a good Class AB Integrated.
Thing is, I did not experience this with the Stratos. At all. It was good at lower levels but that's as far as I'll be willing to go. It was good, definitely not transparent.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Better late than never and while pure Class A is nice, once you've at least gone with a quality AB, it shouldn't make your jaw drop since you know the overall signature. At that point you should already be a changed man then you should start thinking about your loudspeakers again. You can still make wrong choices and have bad synergy amongst components. Cmon Tom, you know this hobby is unforgiving, at all levels. We never really "win" but it's a helluva ride.
I know what he means Megasat, thx.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
Glad you are having fun! I think the Tylers do a great job of letting whatever is upstream come out. The stage can be huge, it can be accurate, it can pass on the details if they are upstream etc..
Enjoy!Analog Source: Rega P3-24 Exact 2 w/GT delrin platter & Neo TT-PSU Digital Source: Lumin T2 w/Roon (NUC) DAC: Denafrips Pontus II Phono Preamp: Rega Aria MK3 Preamp: Rogue RP-7 Amp: Pass X150.8 Speakers: Joseph Audio Perspective 2, Audio Physic Tempo Plus Cables: Morrow M4 ICs & Audio Art SC-5 ePlus, Shunyata PCs Misc: Shunyata Hydra Delta D6, VTI rack, GIK acoustic panels -
Mark, I know you may cringe at the thought of this but I have heard the difference that the upgraded crossovers, diffraction-be-gone pads, resonance dampening and other tweaks have done to another Tyler speaker I'm already familiar with. I will be doing that to both of the Tyler's, as well as going external with the crossovers to further reduce unwanted artifacts.
At least that's the plan. You know me, the plan can change in a heartbeat but that's where I'm headed now at least. I'm thinkin' hardcore of losing the two Tyler subs to finance such an upgrade, even though they do great things for a 2.2 HT rig. Thing is, HT is not my priority. 2 channel is.
I will say this, the most transparent speakers I have heard to date are the speakers Troy had down in Charleston. Quads, I believe. They didn't rock my world but I can say that when they were actually working, they completely disappeared with only minor [at the time] gripes concerning imaging and the palpability thereof.
What would you suggest?~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
