Anyonw tried these wires?Golden Parallel Speaker Cables from Mapleshades

Hawkeye

robsreef wrote: »

My comment above was to Keiko and F1nut.

A second look at your OP reminds me that you have no problem spending $200 on wire for $600 speakers. Sorry for the intrusion.

robsreef, perhaps you can enlighten us on what gear your using and your hands on, PERSONAL experience with this particular brand of wires?

If you haven't had these on hand in your own kit, I'd suggest you have no business posting in this thread. Perhaps you'd have a more receptive audience elsewhere to support your view?

While I enjoy a spirited debate as much as the next guy, you seem to be stuck in the Roger Russell (hypocrite at the least)frame of mind, which is fine. But until you you can say you've tried something other than Home Depot wiring, you're unqualified to pass judgement.

Since you mention spending $200 on $600 speakers, was I out of line spending $1400 on $8500 speakers? Where do you draw the line?

Gordon

robsreef

Guys, guys calm down. Yes you have nice setups, yes mine is very modest.

My only experience with wires is is in nuclear instrumentation circuit engineering and design, robotics and automation encoder signal path wiring; both in digital and analog applications.

My experience with speaker wire is limited also. I've spent the $125 for a 50 ft roll of wire. When after hooking said wire to speakers and finding no discernable audible difference, we hooked it to an oscilloscope, and observed output of sine, square, sawtooth, etc waves, at varying frequencies and amplitudes through the 50ft length of wire compared to the same gauge wire of Radio Shack wire, and were able to measure no difference in amplitude or signal quality, vs input wave, between the two wires. Drops in Vp-p, were also identical. I'm not just a guy quoting an article, I've done some tests myself.

I've already apologized in the above post, and you are correct, I have no experience with this particular brand of wires. If you don't want answers to questions, then do not ask them. This is the Internet, after all. I will abstain from participating in your overpriced wire discussions, as I try to avoid frustrating situations. Thanks for the warm welcome to Polk Audio's forums.

TouchOfEvil

If your a nah say fine so be it. I however am a believer and wish you would move along. I have no interest in your opinion about wires because you do not have any experience with various wire types.
I have tried several as well as a good bit of different amps pres etc and so on. If i want to spend MY money on some nice wires then guess what, I can do just that.
No need to thank anyone you have made it clear your only here to stir the pot.

robsreef

I am not here to stir any pots. If you read my post above, you'll see that I said I will not participate in your wire discussions. I did not know when I joined here, that wires were such a delicate topic. After combing the archives, I can see it is quite ridiculous. Please do not flatter yourself into thinking that I responded to this post to get a "rise" out of you. I could care less what you think.

The only reason I came to this forum was to ask about some Polk speakers that I had purchased, and their compatibility with some that I currently own.

After reading through a multitude of old posts on this forum, I can see that in general, a small group of you guys are just toxic in attitude, and belittle anyone that has a view that differs from your own; ie making fun of physical build, budgets, and incomes. I think some of you relish a post in which someone asks about certain subjects, so you can bash people whom quote scientific evidence, with your anecdotal "I can tell the difference between coathangers and brand XXXXX wire."

A handful of you guys ruin this forum. That's probably the easiest way to say it.

F1nut

The tale of two new forum members.

You, who have made a less than favorable impression, mostly based on the fact that you decided to chime in where you had no business because of a serious lack of experience on the subject matter and another guy who after 3 posts says, "Thanks for all the feedback! This is a great site!"

The same folks you claim ruin this forum are some of the same folks that posted in the other thread. So, why the different outcomes? Pretty simple, it's all on you. Therefore, I suggest you think about your passive-aggressive attitude, adjust it and try again because trying to lay the blame on other people is just digging a deeper hole for you.

Hawkeye

robsreef, you may or may not know it, but many folks who have been into audio for many years and have tried a multitude of components and wiring have a solid foundation on which to pass judgement on pieces.

I respect and applaud your educational background. There are not many people who posses the credentials you have. You have a knowledge which is based in science and hard measurable facts. The "ART" of audio disregards the science and centers on the auditory stimulation regardless of the science.

The discussions about wires here and other forums always descends to the depths of trash. On one hand you have the folks who believe wires make a difference and on the other, no difference at all. Both are firm believers in their position and nearly nothing will change their minds.

What I propose to you is cast off the science for a moment and at least give something a bit better reviewed a chance. Listen to the music and see if the science may be clouding your judgement. That may be difficult for someone with your background (no offense intended) and give a "new" wire a honest listen. If you give a honest chance and listen closely and find no change, then your position can be more readily accepted. Of course you'll get all of the " your gear is substandard, change your this or that........you get the gist of what I mean. But at least you will then have the satisfaction and certainty that at least you tried.

You seem to be an intelligent person. Have a bit more of an open mind and not dwell on the science and numbers. You may find that your numbers don't add up.

Gordon

robsreef

Hawkeye,
Thanks for your post. It has been over 20 years since I made did my own observations into speaker wiring using lab equipment; I may be due a listen. I wonder if there is a high end shop in my area that would be willing to A/B 12 ga wire against specialty IC's. I doubt I would find much difference, if any, but you never know. Information is best gained via observation, not speculation.

Probably however, considering my budget (and the budget of Polk's average customers) I would find that the money spent on expensive IC's, would be better spent stepping up in class of speakers, or amplifier; often the difference between good and much better is <$100.

Thanks for welcoming a new member,
Robert

renowilliams

I am currently trying new to me speaker wires and interconnects. To be honest I was personally very sceptical that I would notice any difference. This is the reason that I purchased used. I will have to put some hours in to really see how I feel about them (I know poor me, I'll have to listen to a lot of music) but I can say that I immediatley noticed subtile differences sonically.

BlueFox

robsreef wrote: »

I may be due a listen. I wonder if there is a high end shop in my area that would be willing to A/B 12 ga wire against specialty IC's.

I suspect that will be a waste of time. It helps to be intimately familiar with your listening environment, your gear, and the music. Once you are familiar with how something sounds then any difference will be obvious. Trying all that in a strange environment, with unknown gear, is a recipe for failure.

So far for me, the differences between speaker wire A and B, and interconnect A and B, has been obvious every time. The same applies to power cords. The real question is whether the difference is worth the hundreds/thousands of dollars for the cost. At this point I am not suffering from buyers remorse on any purchase.

Hawkeye

Robert, perhaps I was a bit harsh in my initial posts to you. Twenty years ago, the computer did not exist for the common man. In the same vein, wire was wire then also. There has been some advances in windings and configuration. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

What I will convey to you is that there can be a difference if one listens closely and has an open mind. I've measured wires for resistance and they all came out the same. Granted, not at your level of measurement since I have neither the skill nor equipment to conduct such tests. But what I can say is there is/are some auditory differences which have had both positive and negative influences on my listening enjoyment.

I agree to a point that money can be better spent in other areas besides wires. Many folks will spend what they can afford on gear and disregard one of the main factors which is the room (a discussion for another day). But for the folks who have taken the due care, wires can be the "fine tuning" to an otherwise fine sounding system.

My advice is tone it down a bit and get a feel for how this site deals with new members. This can be a very informative and friendly site once you understand the dynamics. One can freely have an opposing view if it is presented in a manner which is not confrontational.

I'm not sure if it has been said yet, but welcome to CP. And I mean that with sincerity.

Gordon

ROHfan

robsreef wrote: »

I think some of you relish a post in which someone asks about certain subjects, so you can bash people whom quote scientific evidence, with your anecdotal "I can tell the difference between coathangers and brand XXXXX wire."

A handful of you guys ruin this forum. That's probably the easiest way to say it.

+1. And oftentimes it's those with higher post counts who are the worst offenders. The elitist, judgmental members who are just as steadfast in their own stubborn opinions while absolutely refusing to see another point of view, especially when confronted with such abstract and crazy ideas as science, testing and proof. By the way, welcome!

Hawkeye

ROHfan wrote: »

+1. And oftentimes it's those with higher post counts who are the worst offenders. The elitist, judgmental members who are just as steadfast in their own stubborn opinions while absolutely refusing to see another point of view, especially when confronted with such abstract and crazy ideas as science, testing and proof. By the way, welcome!

ROH, post count has nothing to do with it. A high post count means nothing until one researches the contributions one has made.

As I mentioned above, audio is not about science, testing and proof. It is in what one hears. It is more an art than science.

Folks with high counts are more than willing to listen to opinions if they are backed by real, hands on, in the house experiences. It is the folks who rely strictly on science and numbers who have no real time experience who unnerve the folks who have at the least tried.

Who would you respect more, the person who said I tried and found no difference or the person who said the numbers say there is no difference so I won't try?

Gordon

ROHfan

Hawkeye wrote: »

Who would you respect more, the person who said I tried and found no difference or the person who said the numbers say there is no difference so I won't try?

Gordon

Gordon, I meant no offense to you personally, and I'm all about what you said above. For example, I'm a member on a cryptozoology website because I happen to believe that a large, bipedal North American primate may actually exist. There's no hard scientific evidence but something tells me there's a possibility it's true mostly based on first-hand accounts of a few folks I actually know. It's kind of fun to think so at the very least and I have a good time interacting with others on the forum. So I have no problem overlooking science and going with my gut.

The problem I have with the high end cable debacle is two fold: For one, the over-bloated claims on manufacturer's websites and some forum members here flies in the face of what I know to be true and factual, that is, what I have been taught by those in my field of work and what knowledge I use when testing attenuation, db loss and back reflection of fiber optic cable, and insulation megger resistance (shield integrity) and DC loop resistance testing of CIS, telephony and power cabling, as well as Cat5 and Cat6 certification. I'm versed in SONNET, DWDM, PLC programming, and tons of stuff that bores the crap out of me every day at work. I kind of know what I'm talking about in regards to our beloved plastic coated copper (and silver and nickel) and am not just looking to start crap.

Secondly, I have a VERY hard time taking someone's suggestion here to actually test this high priced cable because I will not shell out the cash for it, unless I hit the lotto sometime soon and then I will ask for suggestions. I would sooner spend that money on a laptop that one of my kids needs, or to get the damn AC fixed in my '99 Pontiac Sunfire in time for the hot weather.

Sorry for the long rant but I feel I may have acted a little immature in defense of my stance previously and wanted to just clear the air. I've actually enjoyed my time here. So far... :biggrin:


Bill

robsreef

Hawkeye wrote: »

I agree to a point that money can be better spent in other areas besides wires. Many folks will spend what they can afford on gear and disregard one of the main factors which is the room (a discussion for another day). But for the folks who have taken the due care, wires can be the "fine tuning" to an otherwise fine sounding system.

Gordon

The "room" is an issue I am currently dealing with. I had a smallish living room before, enclosed on three and a half sides, carpeted, nearly square, etc. It was easy to get decent sound.

Now, I have a "great" (no pun intended) room, with poor acoustics. It encompasses the dining area, kitchen, and living room. The kitchen has a half-enclosed bar area, with 9 foot ceilings, while the rest of the area has 14 foot vaulted ceilings. Did I mention it's all hardwood floors? It's an echo mess.

So far, I've went from 5.1 to 7.1 surround. I've changed my surround bookshelves to Monitor 50's. I changed my subwoofer from a ported 8" (old) PSW120 to a sealed 15" I purchased from Parts Express. I finally found my MCACC microphone to use the calibration EQ function on my AVR. That made a significant difference.

It's a work in progress, but I am seeing big progress.

I came to this forum, because it is hosted by the company that built my speakers, and the title of the forum was Getting Started, Basic Hookup; by context I thought it was a beginner, not an aficionado forum. For what I mistook as a beginner forum, 12 ga plain-jane IC's would have been great.

Best Buy does sell a large portion of Polk's speakers, and we all know how great Best Buy is, after all.

ROHfan

Keiko wrote: »

What are you implying here? What scientific data are you referring to? What gear have you tested? How were these tests performed and carried out? Show us you're proof. I'm all ears.

Sorry, that's not the bait I prefer. :cool:

BlueFox

robsreef wrote: »

I came to this forum, because it is hosted by the company that built my speakers, and the title of the forum was Getting Started, Basic Hookup; by context I thought it was a beginner, not an aficionado forum. For what I mistook as a beginner forum, 12 ga plain-jane IC's would have been great.

You are correct. 12 gauge wire is fine. I used hardware store twisted copper 12 gauge for years, and was able to hear a difference over the 16 gauge it replaced.

Anyway, while looking for information is great, opinion stated as fact tends to irritate people who know that it is not true.

For example.

"Cable burn-in"....wow, it's amazing what some companies will say. I used to own a saltwater aquarium shop. You'd be amazed at some of the claims manufacturers claim in that genre.

Most wire and interconnect claims are pretty bogus. Monster was one of the pioneers in this market, and others have used them as a starting point for their BS.

Hawkeye

OK Bill, you believe in Bigfoot. I also believe there are aliens flying around our tiny speck of dirt we call earth in the universe. I'm not being flip. I'm quite serious.

I took no offense in your comments. A well thought out defense or offense on wires is enjoyable to me, as long as it does not get personal. To call someone an a$$ or whatever is not an acceptable answer/response to me.

Your assertion that wire makers over blow the attributes of a particular wire is spot on. Most of them seem to be carnival barkers. It takes an educated person (audiowise) to separate the wheat from the chaff.

At present, I'm listening to a pair of speaker wires which I have no idea of the cost or who they were made by. They were loaned to me by a member of this forum to try for awhile. I do know I've noticed some obvious differences between my regular cables and the loaners. They are not day and night differences, just subtle clues. I probably would have a hard time doing a blind AB but I think I could tell after an extended session.

As I mentioned before to robsreef, you work with wire every day. I don't. Perhaps we sometimes can't see the forest from the trees. Science and numbers are only a tool to get a result. Everyone of us has a different outer ear called the Pinna which is close to a fingerprint. They are all a bit different. None is right or wrong. So how we can or can't hear something is a personal choice.

If you choose to try a wire and find a positive, negative or neutral result, at the least you can say you tried. You certainly wouldn't get a negative response from me. I'll go negative on a view if there is no personal, on hand attempt and the author tells me I'm hearing things:biggrin:.

Gordon

ROHfan

Keiko wrote: »

I'm not baiting you. In response to your post, those are fair questions. If you're going to spout off like that, you should be prepared to back it up. Right?

So what is all this science, testing and proof you speak of? I'd really like to know.

I'm sure you've seen the myriad of published testing done on speaker wire so don't ask me to post what you've already read and probably don't wish to believe. That is your prerogative and your problem.

Hawkeye

Robert, hang around a bit! It can be a tough crowd around here, but it is the Internet!! Put on your armour and contribute where you can, be prepared to take hits and roll with it.

There are honestly some very fine people on this site which I've had the pleasure of meeting in person. Some won't sugar coat it and some will. It is one of the best site's I visit.

I'm not a Polk employee so I have nothing to gain or lose!:biggrin:

Gordon

ROHfan

Hawkeye wrote: »

As I mentioned before to robsreef, you work with wire every day. I don't. Perhaps we sometimes can't see the forest from the trees. Science and numbers are only a tool to get a result. Everyone of us has a different outer ear called the Pinna which is close to a fingerprint. They are all a bit different. None is right or wrong. So how we can or can't hear something is a personal choice.

Gordon

I must respectfully disagree. Your anatomy point is right on but your logic is flawed. Sound can definitely be perceived differently by two different people, just like colors can be seen differently because of the unique makeup of the rods and cones in the eyes. The characteristics of one's own hearing does not change simply because a wire of like awg is swapped. Going from a 24 awg, kinked, stretched and corroded wire to a brand new, 12 awg pair will absolutely show sonic difference because of the simple fact that the new wire has less resistance. That is where I, and many others, believe the perceived difference ends.

I stated earlier on in this thread that I did some A/B testing on MITs a few years ago and heard no discernable difference. That coupled with my knowledge of wire composition add up to a pretty solid conclusion, IMO. Is there a cable out there that I can hear a difference with? Maybe. I can keep an open mind.

ROHfan

Keiko wrote: »

iListed :rolleyes:

You'll be missed.

robsreef

What is "iListed"?

Toolfan66

robsreef wrote: »

What is "iListed"?

It means being put on the ignore list.... Just for the record AGAIN!! a modest system more then likely will not show you what cables can do for a system. in my opinon one with a modest system should save their money and stick with affordable cables and wire..

robsreef

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

It means being put on the ignore list.... Just for the record AGAIN!! a modest system more then likely will not show you what cables can do for a system. in my opinon one with a modest system should save their money and stick with affordable cables and wire..

I agree; I'm probably far from being able to appreciate any subtle improvements that high-end wires might exhibit.

BlueFox

robsreef wrote: »

I agree; I'm probably far from being able to appreciate any subtle improvements that high-end wires might exhibit.

Who knows. Some people love music simply because it is music. To them all gear, cables, etc. sound the same. Others love music, but also love how it sounds. For them, the improvements from gear and/or cables can be subtle, or they can be obvious.

When I decided to upgrade all my two channel gear I went with Kimber Kable Hero XLR interconnects. To me, they were high-end since they cost more than I ever spent on any IC, even if they were at the bottom of the price scale at Audio Advisor. They certainly worked, and sounded good, but, and although I have no proof I swear this is the truth, I used to wonder why the soundstage rarely extended speaker to speaker. It was clear and well defined, but restricted in area between the two speakers. Since I was no longer using SDAs I didn't expect it to go beyond the speakers, but only once in a while would a CD have a soundstage speaker to speaker.

Later, after reading this site for some time, it seemed as if all I ever heard was MIT this and MIT that. Blah, blah, blah, MIT. So, I finally broke down and bought MIT Shotgun S1.3 XLRs, and replaced all the Kimber Kables. My first impression was "BFD", this isn't any better, especially considering what they cost. Anyway, later that night, after about 5-6 hours non-stop playing, I am listening to the system when all of a sudden the soundstage literally expanded right in front of me. I could not believe it. It was now speaker to speaker, and was so obvious I just started laughing like a maniac with amazement.

In this case, the Kimber Kables were restricting the soundstage, and the MITs let it open up. What caused that? I have no idea. Can I get the same result from other cables? Maybe, but I am happy at this time, so I am not very interested in experimenting.

The point of this post is this. If you keep an open mind, do your homework, learn to separate useful information from useless information, and spend a few dollars, you will be amazed at how much better a "stereo" can sound.

TouchOfEvil

BlueFox wrote: »

Who knows. Some people love music simply because it is music. To them all gear, cables, etc. sound the same. Others love music, but also love how it sounds. For them, the improvements from gear and/or cables can be subtle, or they can be obvious.

When I decided to upgrade all my two channel gear I went with Kimber Kable Hero XLR interconnects. To me, they were high-end since they cost more than I ever spent on any IC, even if they were at the bottom of the price scale at Audio Advisor. They certainly worked, and sounded good, but, and although I have no proof I swear this is the truth, I used to wonder why the soundstage rarely extended speaker to speaker. It was clear and well defined, but restricted in area between the two speakers. Since I was no longer using SDAs I didn't expect it to go beyond the speakers, but only once in a while would a CD have a soundstage speaker to speaker.

Later, after reading this site for some time, it seemed as if all I ever heard was MIT this and MIT that. Blah, blah, blah, MIT. So, I finally broke down and bought MIT Shotgun S1.3 XLRs, and replaced all the Kimber Kables. My first impression was "BFD", this isn't any better, especially considering what they cost. Anyway, later that night, after about 5-6 hours non-stop playing, I am listening to the system when all of a sudden the soundstage literally expanded right in front of me. I could not believe it. It was now speaker to speaker, and was so obvious I just started laughing like a maniac with amazement.

In this case, the Kimber Kables were restricting the soundstage, and the MITs let it open up. What caused that? I have no idea. Can I get the same result from other cables? Maybe, but I am happy at this time, so I am not very interested in experimenting.

The point of this post is this. If you keep an open mind, do your homework, learn to separate useful information from useless information, and spend a few dollars, you will be amazed at how much better a "stereo" can sound.

Good post!!!

headrott

Reported.

TouchOfEvil

headrott wrote: »

Reported.

reported who/for what?

headrott

Reported someone doing advertisements.:mad: It's all good now.

Greg

TouchOfEvil

headrott wrote: »

Reported someone doing advertisements.:mad: It's all good now.

Greg

Ahh, gotcha.