Recapping Monitor 5 & 7A's
Comments
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he,he,, Yak-- where can I get one?
JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut) -
The Daytons (5%) were the least expensive of the capacitors I tested. They did quite well (third out of nine). I am still collecting capacitors and am refining the test setup (I want to do multiple impedance sweeps with different shunt resistors). But in this preliminary test Jantzen, Erse, Dayton were 1,2,3. The worst were the Gen 1 Sonicaps (measuring 8.025uF versus the rated 8.2), at more than 4x the cost of the Daytons. Obviously, some of this variation is statistical, so in stage 2 of the test I will compare ensembles of the same capacitor to measure unit variation.
You do all these measurements with all these caps, yet you wont even listen to how they sound? So Soniccaps faired worst in your test measurements, yet they sound the better than the Daytons and others you listed. This is according to other forum members who have taken the time and pain to perform these tests and better the community for it.
If caps are caps, then why dont we just go back and put our stock electrolytics and be happy with that?
Tennman - trust us - Soniccaps are the way to go. If you plan on keeping your speakers for a long while and want to do the job just once - go with Soniccaps and Mills Resistors.Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.
The other 2% will work for WalMart. -
Clarity Caps and you can thank me later
H9
H9 Man - I havnt read much on Clarity Caps being used in PA Crossovers - I mainly heard that the Soniccaps are the best bang for the buck and are better than the Daytons and others. Do you think (or know) if they sound better than the Soniccaps? Just curious on your thoughts. I dont plan on replacing my SCs with CCs anytime soon.Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.
The other 2% will work for WalMart. -
Does anyone get the feeling that a legitimate forum member is disguising themself as JCandy (perhaps an alter-ego) and is trying to see who he (or she) can rile up?
Think about it - can anyone spend so much time quoting something out of spec and come to the conclusion that if it measures out of "their" specifications, then it must sound bad without hearing the audible results?
I have equipment (assuming that a DCM counts) but I am not about to measure every cap and resistor and then throw it out if it does not meet 1% spec (hint hint JCandy).
Maybe JCandy doesnt have any test equipment? Maybe JCandy does not have audio equipment? If JCandy says that he has Bose, then you have to wonder what equipment that they are using.
Perhaps JCandy has too much time on his/her hands, or that they really need to see the light. Take your pick.Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.
The other 2% will work for WalMart. -
JCandy - if a cap is just a cap if they all have the same specifications, does it mean that test equipment (such as a DCM), then are all test equipment the same?Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.
The other 2% will work for WalMart. -
Then you better do that, because in terms of rated capacitance, the Daytons clobbered the more expensive Sonicaps.And in a crossover, a capacitor affects the sound via -- brace yourself -- its capacitance! So, when capacitor A delivers closer to its rated capacitance across the spectrum than capacitor B, that means the crossover is doing its job more correctly with A than with B. Basically, you need to stop making stuff up and preaching it to people like its the truth.
Your lack of knowledge concerning the subject matter is harmful to the good of the forum, so please STFU.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Says the guy who brings nothing to the table.Your lack of knowledge concerning the subject matter is harmful to the good of the forum, so please STFU. -
I am assuming a post this inane is the result if not actually having read what was written. Thanks for that.PolkMaster1 wrote: »JCandy - if a cap is just a cap if they all have the same specifications, does it mean that test equipment (such as a DCM), then are all test equipment the same? -
My experience thus far point to this explanation:Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it. I asked the question in an effort to find something that would explain the difference that so many people report they hear between the capacitors. I guess the time factor is not it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-_nTyQmju8 -
Read any Orwell lately?Specs and measurements don't mean a damn thing in predicting how something will sound. -
Says the guy who brings nothing to the table.
Your problem here, sport is that you haven't done your research, proving once again that you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about otherwise you would never make such a ridiculous comment.
You don't seem to get what Club Polk is about and that is unfortunate, but it is all of your own doing. I suggest you find another place with like minded folks, you might fit in better.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
GET OVER YOURSELF.Your problem here, sport is that you haven't done your research, proving once again that you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about otherwise you would never make such a ridiculous comment
What research beyond swapping a cap and shouting "me like" have you done? -
GET OVER YOURSELF.
What research beyond swapping a cap and shouting "me like" have you done?
OK so here goes my research.
I have original SDA-2's with 2 Tweeters and 3 Drivers in each cab and SDA2b's with one Tweeter and 2 Drivers per cab. I have swapped all Tweeters for the RDO-194 and all drivers are in great shape.
I have swapped the caps in the original SDA's for: Dayton's Polypropylene 5%, Jantzen's Z Superiors, and Sonicaps Gen 1's. I have never changed the Inductors in any of the swaps on either speaker.
I have let each new swap burn in a recommended amount. About 100hrs each of moderate level music not pink noise or a sweep. All burned in on the same CD. Pink Floyd's A Momentary Lapse of Reason.
My results:
I tried the Dayton's first as they were the cheapest and if they sounded as good as I had hoped I probably would have stopped right there. Well they did not. They sounded Brittle and Harsh even after 150hrs. Yes they went through several stages of burn in as many caps do. But these never mellowed. In fact I found the sound quite fatiguing and disconnected the Dimensional Tweeter thinking it was the root cause. This did not help at all. So I reconnected it and went on too the next caps.
Second time around I tried Jantzen Superior Z's. Much smoother, and much warmer than the Dayton's but still peaked out kind of harshly especially at higher volumes. I also felt some of the midrange had disappeared. Also the SDA Effect seemed loose. The points you would normally here musicians became wider, but not in a good way(Unfocused). As the dimensional tweeter was still involved I once again disconnected it and tried that. Well it helped with some fatigue but not the harshness up top. NEXT!!!!
Third times the Charm so far. Next up were Sonicap Gen I's. I should have gone this way first and saved some money (Although at the time I thought them expensive). Having read so many posts on the matter I doubted they could live up to the hype. I was wrong, they are great. The Midrange came back as well as focus. The high's are Clean. Not Brittle, Harsh and gritty as the Daytons or Tinny and Peaky as the Jantzen's. The soundstage seemed to open up some and overall there is no fatigue involved with listening with or without the dimensional tweeter.
On my SDA2b's I have tried Sonicap Gen I's and Clarity Cap ESA Range.
First: As with the Original SDA2's the switch from stock cap to Sonicap was amazing. I am sure if Polk had used these caps originally they could have sold there speakers for twice the price. Lucky for us they didn't. The one thing I did notice from Original to the B's was the lower frequency response. The Originals always had more punch to me but after the swap they were very close in this respect. I am still suprised by the level of bass output of the 2b's. Overall a more refined sound than the originals. But I decided to try something new. In with Clarity.
I will say the change from Sonicap to Clarity ESA's was not as big as I had hoped. But the difference is apparent. Even my wife noticed the difference in sound. That is saying something. I will say that the sounstage is crisp with a low end warmth that is butter smooth. The Highs are clean with nice bloom and never become harsh or fatiguing. The one thing I will say about the Clarity Caps is they don't need as much power to be clear. They come up to sound easily with at least 20% less volume needed. That does not mean they loose it at high volumes. But it is nice to be able to listen to music quietly but fully.
Now jcandy, how about your thought on how they sound. I may not know the terminology but I do know what my ears hear. And to me that is worth more than any of your laboratory type tests. Sorry, all the testing in the world does not make you right. And I apologize for being as you put it an "Internet Warrior". But you failed to answer the most important question and refuse to do so. And until you do all of your post are illegitimate and trollish to me and almost everyone else here. I don't even think you tested these caps in real world use other than on a test bench.
Hook them up to some speakers and let your ears do the testing. You are being quite narrow minded on this and unless you do a true evaluation you won't really know the truth. We do and that is why we suggest certain types of caps or wire or amplifiers to people.
If we go by the numbers, your thinking would have us get a no name system from Walmart for our audio needs. Cause if the tolerances are correct and the ratings are on spec than they are just as good as Bryston, Pass labs, B&K or Adcom. Sorry this just isn't true.
The truth is you don't listen to music with a oscillator, you listen to music with your ears.
If you want to see a true review look for posts by DarqueKnight. He understands the difference between Lab and Real World Results. -
OK so here goes my research.
<snip>
I appreciate the detailed summary of your experiences, but the methodology is unsound. People hear all sorts of improvements in expensive cables, capacitors, and so on, when they listen under the circumstances you describe. The problem is, in every case, when the cables and capacitors are hidden from view, differences tend to vanish. The explanation for this well-known problem is so-called expectation bias. The remarkable thing about expectation bias is that it even shows up in MRI brain imaging (of the medial orbitofrontal cortex). For example, when tasters are given two identical wines (but are not told they are identical), with one labeled $45 and the other labeled $5, the tasters tend to prefer the more expensive wine, and you can even measure, with MRI, heightened activity in the cortex (the pleasure center). So, the wine does taste better, even though its the same wine. That's what's happening with capacitors, given the results of measurements which show how stable, precise and similar they tend to be electronically.
I have reported to you only the very first stages of my capacitor tests. The work will be broadened to include not only more capacitors, but blind as well as "deceptive" tests (where I tell a listener he is listening to a $100 boutique cap rather than a $3 Dayton). There is a reason why I chose 8.2 uF -- it is the cap used in the HP section of my test speaker.
With regard to actual listening, I do all manner of component swapping and listening -- in particular, in the final stages of voicing a speaker (padding the tweeter to tweak the in-room response for example). I combine these listening trials with measurement, so I have a decent ability to predict sound from a measurement, and a measurement from listening. I agonized over a particular tweak, for example: I built internal damping units (OC703 wrapped in cloth) to be used in a center channel (see below). These smoothed out the mid-range response slightly, but reduced the bass response by raising the port tuning. Extensive listening combined with measurement was required to sort this out.
So telling me to "use your ears, stupid" is a just opening a big can of fail. -
You do understand that I paid more for Sonicaps than the Clarity Caps? The Clarity Caps were best.
I understand the theory of Blind testing, but how do you account for my wife hearing a difference? She knew I was doing something to the speakers but not what I did or if it cost anything.
I have trouble understanding people like you. You are so analytical with no emotion. If I were designing a new speaker system I can see some of the measurements you have coming into play.
The crossovers we are speaking about are of a well known design. We are simply replacing stock parts for better quality parts. Considering Polk built speakers for a price point leads us to believe that we can do better. And with the trial and errors of many hear we have done better in many cases. We weren't born yesterday, we know more than you think. So to say we are opening up a big can of fail is ludicrous when it comes to Polk Speakers. We are telling people honest opinions that are backed up by many others on this forum.
If you don't believe us wait until you are done trying your caps that you have not heard yet.
By the way are you using a Polk speaker for this cap contest? Or some generic speakers? That also makes a huge difference. Unless you think all speakers are the same. -
I could use my Paradigms, which are better than your Polks. Or my Zaph BAMTMs, which use the one of the lowest-distortion tweeters in the worldBy the way are you using a Polk speaker for this cap contest? Or some generic speakers? That also makes a huge difference.
http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=114
Actually, I have piles of tweeters in the workshop, including a pair of the new Dayton RS28Fs:
http://www.daytonaudio.com/lspeakers/reference_rs28f-4.html
Yes, all speakers are the same.Unless you think all speakers are the same. -
I could use my Paradigms, which are better than your Polks.
In your opinion.........you state everything as fact when you write it. Most of this, if not all, is your opinion. Just like most things audio.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
How do you account for the fact that despite stories like this, no differences are heard once the testing is truly blind? Here is a blurb from Wolf's recent capacitor test at the Iowa 2010 DIY meeting:I understand the theory of Blind testing, but how do you account for my wife hearing a difference? She knew I was doing something to the speakers but not what I did or if it cost anything.Test 1
The first test involved switching of alike cap makes/models in both the midrange and tweeter circuits with another set from another make/model. These were placed in the last series cap position for both the mid and tweeter, from a 3rd order electrical highpass. (IE- one cap in the midrange, one cap in the tweeter, both in the same electrical position; switched at the same time.) Switches were heard between A and B initially, and not heard when going to X. This was to see if the difference was easier to detect over more than one driver, and to allow the harmonics of the adjacent driver to also be affected simultaneously over the course of the test.
I received a few subjective written comments on the ballots that B was 'clearer/more dynamic', while A was 'edgier'.
Tracks used were 1,2,3 in the link above^. The order of tracks was the 3 tracks for A, then 3 tracks for B, then 3 tracks for X; Answer was B.
Of the 26 ballots, I had one ommission, 8 answered correctly, and 17 answered incorrectly. This apparently was not as easy as the groups' reflected opinion stated. Still to be noted is that the crowd as a majority thought they heard a difference.
The results show that people cannot even do better than random, and the fact is that the Daytons are as good (or better) than much more expensive caps in this application. -
My Paradigms are better because they cost more. I think they expel more capacitance.In your opinion.........you state everything as fact when you write it. Most of this, if not all, is your opinion. Just like most things audio. -
How do you account for the fact that despite stories like this, no differences are heard once the testing is truly blind? Here is a blurb from Wolf's recent capacitor test at the Iowa 2010 DIY meeting:Test 1
The first test involved switching of alike cap makes/models in both the midrange and tweeter circuits with another set from another make/model. These were placed in the last series cap position for both the mid and tweeter, from a 3rd order electrical highpass. (IE- one cap in the midrange, one cap in the tweeter, both in the same electrical position; switched at the same time.) Switches were heard between A and B initially, and not heard when going to X. This was to see if the difference was easier to detect over more than one driver, and to allow the harmonics of the adjacent driver to also be affected simultaneously over the course of the test.
I received a few subjective written comments on the ballots that B was 'clearer/more dynamic', while A was 'edgier'.
Tracks used were 1,2,3 in the link above^. The order of tracks was the 3 tracks for A, then 3 tracks for B, then 3 tracks for X; Answer was B.
Of the 26 ballots, I had one ommission, 8 answered correctly, and 17 answered incorrectly. This apparently was not as easy as the groups' reflected opinion stated. Still to be noted is that the crowd as a majority thought they heard a difference.
The results show that people cannot even do better than random, and the fact is that the Daytons are as good (or better) than much more expensive caps in this application.
Excerpts snipped from a larger whole, which seem to support your opinion, are totally useless and completely worthless.
FAIL again
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
My Paradigms are better because they cost more. I think they expel more capacitance.
You really are a effin a-hole. I admitted not knowing the correct terminology but you still think its fun to throw stones. G.F.Y.S.
You are a troll and no matter what you think you will always be a troll. You are an Epic Fail!!!!
Have a great life I know I will. jcandyass!!!!!!! -
But its about 25 times more convincing that a single anecdotal account of the sort you capacitor mystics offer. 25 people participated in this test carried out by a well-known DIYer at a well-known event. The results speak volumes. Just google "wolf capacitor Iowa" to real the details.Excerpts snipped from a larger whole, which seem to support your opinion, are totally useless and completely worthless. -
Let it go Joe..............jcandy is trying to push your buttons and you're letting him. His idea's are absurb if taken at face value and literally. Let him ramble on, as long as he has an audience he will continue to get off on it.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
But its about 25 times more convincing.
In your opinion, not mine. I know better.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Indeed you'd have a better life, IMHO, if you saved money spent on boutique capacitors and gave it to your wife or kids. I think you deserve the ribbing about your "expelling capacitance" nonsense, because you had the nerve to run your mouth explaining how capacitors function when its obvious you really didn't know.You really are a effin a-hole. I admitted not knowing the correct terminology but you still think its fun to throw stones. G.F.Y.S.
You are a troll and no matter what you think you will always be a troll. You are an Epic Fail!!!!
Have a great life I know I will. jcandyass!!!!!!! -
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Think what you want I understand how they work. But then again your better than me. If you need to think that go ahead. BTW, Ribbing is all in fun when the person doing the ribbing isn't an a-hole. This is a public place so I will stop typing before I say something I shouldn't.
Heiney9 is right, you just like pushing peoples buttons. Well your done pushing mine.
Get this guy thinking Paradigms are better than SDA's. You are deaf!
Troll! -
Honestly, we could have been talking details and maybe all learned something in the process, but you capacitor mystics do your best to shun all physics, engineering and measurement from discussion. Personal attacks are the substitute. Its remarkable how blind you, as a group, are to your own atrocious behaviour.Let it go Joe..............jcandy is trying to push your buttons and you're letting him. His idea's are absurb if taken at face value and literally. Let him ramble on, as long as he has an audience he will continue to get off on it. -
Honestly, we could have been talking details and maybe all learned something in the process, but you capacitor mystics do your best to shun all physics, engineering and measurement from discussion. Personal attacks are the substitute. Its remarkable how blind you, as a group, are to your own atrocious behaviour.
Troll.... -
The Daytons (5%) were the least expensive of the capacitors I tested. They did quite well (third out of nine). I am still collecting capacitors and am refining the test setup (I want to do multiple impedance sweeps with different shunt resistors). But in this preliminary test Jantzen, Erse, Dayton were 1,2,3. The worst were the Gen 1 Sonicaps (measuring 8.025uF versus the rated 8.2), at more than 4x the cost of the Daytons. Obviously, some of this variation is statistical, so in stage 2 of the test I will compare ensembles of the same capacitor to measure unit variation.
My makeshift kitchen "laboratory".
When I was doing the inductor and circuit board upgrades on my SDA CRS+'s, I took the opportunity to do further measurements on the 12 uF and 20 uF capacitors used in their crossovers.
For the 20 uF capacitors, my findings concurred with jcandy's that the Sonicap's had the most deviation from nominal value. However, there are other factors which affect a capacitor's performance in an audio circuit besides deviation from rated value. Three of these are transient response, noise performance and dissipation factor. I would expect that anyone doing a serious quantitative study of capacitor performance in stereophonic audio circuits would demonstrate due regard for these parameters. My research indicates that there is a link between these parameters and imaging and spatial properties.
With the 20 uF caps, the Sonicaps had the most deviation from nominal value (20.73 uF), yet sounded the best. The stock electrolytics measured the closest to nominal value (20.13 uF), yet sounded the worst. Sonicap's had the best transient response and noise performance, as measured with an oscilloscope, and the lowest power dissipation factor, as measured with an LCR meter. The stock electrolytics had the worst performance in these three categories.
In this study, the 12 uF and 20 uF capacitors which have been used in three pairs of CRS+'s speakers were evaluated. The 20 uF capacitors were: (1) stock electrolytics, (2) Solen PB series, (3) AudioCap PPMF series, (4) Sonicap Gen I. The 12 uF capacitors were: (1) stock mylar, (2) Clarity Cap SA series, (3) AudioCap PPMF series, (4) Sonicap Gen I.Of course, if you value something other than rated capacitance from your capacitor, then you can discount my results.
I value a capacitor doing the least amount of damage possible to the MUSIC signals passing through it. To that end, the type and quality of dielectric material and construction technique play important roles in minimizing signal losses.
It is not clear to me why anyone would think that a complete understanding of an electronic component's performance can be gained simply by measuring its rated value. Shouldn't we be primarily concerned with how a signal looks (i.e. maintains integrity) after it passes through a component?
Similar to the results with my SDA inductor replacements, I found a direct correlation was between a capacitor's transient response, noise performance, dissipation factor and its sound quality relative to other capacitors. The AudioCap PPMF's were close in measurement and in sound quality to the Sonicap Gen I's, but the Sonicap's provided better spatial rendering, image weight, overall detail and bass performance.
As I noted in my SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicap upgrade thread (here), Soniccraft's owner, Jeff Glowaki, tried to discourage me from replacing the AudioCap's with Sonicaps. He specifically said that the Sonicap replacement wouldn't be "worth the money" and he specifically recommended bypassing the AudioCaps with small value Sonicaps. However, I politely declined his more cost effective recommendations in favor of consideration for the favorable experience reports of other speaker owners who had made the switch.
I would add the caveat that higher quality capacitors with higher measured performance may not result in an audible difference or improvement in some audio equipment. This is particularly true with high quality capacitors constructed of the same dielectric material.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
