Recapping Monitor 5 & 7A's

Robint

I going to recapped a pair of monitor 5's early version with the Peerless tweeter and a pair of 7A's also with the Peerless tweeter. They both use a 12uf and a 34uf caps. I can use a 5% 33uf Axon cap which will be equivalent to the 34uf cap originally used. The question is I can get 5% Axon caps in 11uf or 13uf, which one would be the best choice?

jcandy

Robint wrote: »

I going to recapped a pair of monitor 5's early version with the Peerless tweeter and a pair of 7A's also with the Peerless tweeter. They both use a 12uf and a 34uf caps. I can use a 5% 33uf Axon cap which will be equivalent to the 34uf cap originally used. The question is I can get 5% Axon caps in 11uf or 13uf, which one would be the best choice?

An option is to use this for the 12:

http://www.parts-express.co/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?PartNumber=027-934&DID=7

and these in parallel for the 34:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?PartNumber=027-934&DID=7

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?PartNumber=027-940&DID=7

I recently performed a series of high-precision measurements on an ensemble of capacitors, and the Jantzens were closer to the rated capacitance across the spectrum than the much more expensive ClarityCap ESA (630V, 3%).

TennMan

jcandy, how did the Daytons fair in your tests? They are in the same price range.

Joe08867

I would go Jantzen over Dayton's only because the Dayton's were much more brittle on top to me. Almost had a sizzle when they shouldn't have. Jantzen is nice step up vs Dayton or stock caps. Not nearly as brittle and burn in much nicer.

jcandy

TennMan wrote: »

jcandy, how did the Daytons fair in your tests? They are in the same price range.

The Daytons (5%) were the least expensive of the capacitors I tested. They did quite well (third out of nine). I am still collecting capacitors and am refining the test setup (I want to do multiple impedance sweeps with different shunt resistors). But in this preliminary test Jantzen, Erse, Dayton were 1,2,3. The worst were the Gen 1 Sonicaps (measuring 8.025uF versus the rated 8.2), at more than 4x the cost of the Daytons. Obviously, some of this variation is statistical, so in stage 2 of the test I will compare ensembles of the same capacitor to measure unit variation.

Of course, if you value something other than rated capacitance from your capacitor, then you can discount my results.

heiney9

Clarity Caps and you can thank me later

H9

TennMan

heiney9 wrote: »

Clarity Caps and you can thank me later

H9

Do you feel the sound of them is superior to the Dayton caps in this price range? Have you used both of them before? Thanks for your input.

jcandy

heiney9 wrote: »

Clarity Caps and you can thank me later

My samples of ClarityCap ESA, SA and PX were all farther from spec. than the less-expensive Dayton 5% cap.

F1nut

Here we go again. If one wants 1% tolerance Sonicap's, all one has to to do is ask when the order is placed. What candy doesn't seem to get is that it's the sound, stupid!

Ya'll would do well to ignore any advice the troll offers.

Robint, you can use use a 5% 33uf in place of the 34uF or you can use two 17uF's in parallel. As for the 12uF the same would apply. The suggestion of Clarity is solid and I'll add Sonicap as another solid choice. Both are far superior in sound to Axon or Dayton, which is what really matters.

Joe08867

JCANDY it isn't tolerance it is sound........ How do each of the caps you tested sound? You probably don't know because your a troll and you worry about tolerance over sound quality. To say Clarity has a looser tolerance than Dayton does not mean they sound worse. I would bet money that the Clarity's sound better by far. Seriously go troll somewhere else.

jcandy

F1nut wrote: »

Here we go again. If one wants 1% tolerance Sonicap's, all one has to to do is ask when the order is placed.

Then you better do that, because in terms of rated capacitance, the Daytons clobbered the more expensive Sonicaps.

F1nut wrote: »

What candy doesn't seem to get is that it's the sound, stupid

And in a crossover, a capacitor affects the sound via -- brace yourself -- its capacitance! So, when capacitor A delivers closer to its rated capacitance across the spectrum than capacitor B, that means the crossover is doing its job more correctly with A than with B. Basically, you need to stop making stuff up and preaching it to people like its the truth.

jcandy

Joe08867 wrote: »

JCANDY it isn't tolerance it is sound

Baloney. If a capacitor delivers its rated capacitance "exactly", then its doing its job perfectly. The only "sound" associated with a capacitor is its "error" -- its deviation from its rated capacitance (somewhere in the frequency band). The Sonicap had the highest error.

Joe08867 wrote: »

You probably don't know because your a troll and you worry about tolerance over sound quality. To say Clarity has a looser tolerance than Dayton does not mean they sound worse. I would bet money that the Clarity's sound better by far.

What makes them sound better? The shiny label? The cost? Because its sure not the capacitance.

jcandy

Here's a question for the capacitor mystics: if I manufactured a perfect capacitor with Z=1/(iwC) (C is the rated capacitance), would it sound better or worse than a Sonicap?

heiney9

jcandy wrote: »

Baloney. If a capacitor delivers its rated capacitance "exactly", then its doing its job perfectly. The only "sound" associated with a capacitor is its "error" -- its deviation from its rated capacitance (somewhere in the frequency band). The Sonicap had the highest error.

Utter B.S., the load is so large you better get an end loader to haul it away.

H9

jcandy

heiney9 wrote: »

Utter B.S., the load is so large you better get an end loader to haul it away.

If I manufactured a perfect capacitor with Z=1/(iwC) (C is the rated capacitance), would it sound better or worse than a Sonicap?

heiney9

jcandy wrote: »

Here's a question for the capacitor mystics: if I manufactured a perfect capacitor with Z=1/(iwC) (C is the rated capacitance), would it sound better or worse than a Sonicap?

Depends on the material, construction and how it was assembled. A 12AX7 tube, is a 12AX7 tube, is a 12AX7 tube, but they all sound different even though they can measure the same.

Specs and measurements don't mean a damn thing in predicting how something will sound.

YOU can't seem to understand that. Pretty pathetic, actually.

H9

Joe08867

It isn't the capacitance it is how they expel the capacitance. Sonicaps did a better job of smoothing the highs over Daytons, and Jantzens IMHO.

You can make any cap hit the efficiency mark, that isn't the point. It is whether or not they sound good doing it. And again you missed the point and didn't answer the million dollar question "How do each of the caps you tested sound?" And again you did not answer cause you think you know more than the rest of us. You are wrong, plain and simple. I have tried several caps in the same speakers and certain companies sound better than others.

And JCandy, if you think that efficiency is the only criteria than you are a fool lost in the wood. Why would different manufacturers make different levels of caps with the same said error percentage? Looks? No they do it because not all caps for a rated uf are the same. Even at the same efficiency they are different in how they flow energy and that is what makes them better or worse.

Seriously listen to the caps you are testing with about 100hrs of burn in and tell me the Daytons sound like Jantzen which sound like Sonicap which sound like Clarity Caps. If that doesn't work get your hearing checked cause you are certainly going deaf.

jcandy

Joe08867 wrote: »

It isn't the capacitance it is how they expel the capacitance

This is complete nonsense, and I think you know it. Capacitors do not expel capacitance. When connected to a DC voltage source, a capacitor will charge up. When disconnected, it will discharge. When connected to an AC source, the capacitor is completely described in terms of its complex impedance Z=1/(iwC). Physically, it is both charging and discharging in a time-harmonic way in the AC case.

In the AC case, the behaviour of an ideal capacitor is described completely in terms of its capacitance, C. In a crossover, any nonideal effect, or error in C, will color the sound. On the other hand, if you believe that Sonicap puts magic gnomes inside their capacitors to make the sound "sweeter" by expelling the capacitance, then that's your business.

heiney9

So why not just mass produce one electrolytic cap for each value and be done with it. We should all use $.09c capacitors as long as they meet spec according to you. :rolleyes:

That's absurd, absolutely absurd.

H9

Joe08867

jcandyass wrote: »

This is complete nonsense, and I think you know it. Capacitors do not expel capacitance. When connected to a DC voltage source, a capacitor will charge up. When disconnected, it will discharge. When connected to an AC source, the capacitor is completely described in terms of its complex impedance Z=1/(iwC). Physically, it is both charging and discharging in a time-harmonic way in the AC case.

In the AC case, the behaviour of an ideal capacitor is described completely in terms of its capacitance, C. In a crossover, any nonideal effect, or error in C, will color the sound. On the other hand, if you believe that Sonicap puts magic gnomes inside their capacitors to make the sound "sweeter" by expelling the capacitance, then that's your business.

jcandyass, just because I may have used incorrect terminology that doesn't mean my ears have been deceiving me. I like the gnome comment. It must have reminded you of home Troll. You are such a horses ****. I meant to say flows through them not expels. If that is your argument you again missed the point. It is the sound they make. You can call it color, or call it error but gain you still didn't answer the question.

HOW DID THE CAPS YOU TESTED SOUND????????? It isn't a hard question unless you haven't done anything you said you did or you are just plain ignorant to the fact that your ears don't agree with your test equipment.

Answer the question if your so smart. Or is it just a case of acting like a know it all. You sure your name isn't candyliquor?

jcandy

heiney9 wrote: »

So why not just mass produce one electrolytic cap for each value and be done with it. We should all use $.09c capacitors as long as they meet spec according to you. :rolleyes:

That's absurd, absolutely absurd.

Its not absurd at all. If you can make an NPE that delivers its rated capacitance, you're done. Its as simple as that. Sorry to burst your bubble.

The problem is that NPE capacitors, like all real capacitors, do not have a constant capacitance. Alas, the deviation is measurable and this is what I am doing. For a metalized poly. capacitor, the capacitance tends to be extremely ideal, and the overwhelming error is due not to series or leakage resistance, but to deviation from specification. This is the reason why capacitors are labelled with (a) nominal capacitance and (b) tolerance -- these are the number one and two variables controlling how it sounds.

However, if you need to believe that its the color of the unicorn in the capacitor is more important than the actual capacitance, more power to you. It makes me think very seriously about rebranding capacitors and selling them for a small fortune.

heiney9

So material, construction, manufacturing have nothing to do with a good capacitor as long as it meets spec according to your test they all sound exactly the same?

More absurdity

I want whatever you're smoking :rolleyes:

heiney9

jcandy wrote: »

It makes me think very seriously about rebranding capacitors and selling them for a small fortune.

Except anyone who actually listen's rather than measure's would call you out in a New York minute and demand their money back.

H9

jcandy

Joe08867 wrote: »

jcandyass,

I see you've switched to internet warrior mode. That's even more lame than your ridiculous remark about expelling capacitance.

FTGV

jcandy wrote: »

But in this preliminary test Jantzen, Erse, Dayton were 1,2,3. The worst were the Gen 1 Sonicaps (measuring 8.025uF versus the rated 8.2), at more than 4x the cost of the Daytons.

I'll let others debate the relative SQ differences between various brands ,but IMO the difference between 8.025uf and 8.2 uf would be audibility insignificant.In fact the variances between the tweeters might very well have greater response disparity than would result from that small of a difference in capacitance.Aswell without accurate frequency response measurements we could not say for certain the larger value isn't actually a better fit for a particular tweet/xover combo.

jcandy

heiney9 wrote: »

So material, construction, manufacturing have nothing to do with a good capacitor as long as it meets spec according to your test they all sound exactly the same?

Obviously. Two capacitors with identical Z=1/(iwC) will sound the same, it doesn't matter if they're made with goat **** from Nepal. In real life, capacitors are not ideal (Z depends on Rs and RL, the series and leakage resistance) and the severity of the nonideal behaviour of course depends on the construction.

jcandy

FTGV wrote: »

I'll let others debate the relative SQ differences between various brands ,but IMO the difference between 8.025uf and 8.2 uf would be audibility insignificant

Right. That is probably at the extreme limit of audibility. I imagine, however, that difference between 8.6uF (8.2+5%) and 7.8uF (8.2-5%) would be audible.

FTGV wrote: »

In fact the variances between the tweeters might very well have greater response disparity than would result from that small of a difference in capacitance

Certainly.

FTGV wrote: »

Aswell without accurate frequency response measurements we could not say for certain the larger value isn't actually a better fit for a particular tweet/xover combo.

Sure. The designer may have optimized a crossover for 8.1 uF, and then bumped that to 8.2 to avoid having to parallel two separate caps. So, in this case an 8.2 uF cap that actually measures at 8.1 would be perfect.

Honestly, I was shocked at how ruler-flat the capacitance (especially in the critical 1-3kHz region) was for EVERY capacitor I tested.

TennMan

I don't know much about electronics but... wouldn't the charge and discharge time of a capacitor have an effect on how it would effect the sound when compared to another capacitor that measures exactly the same in capacitance? Does a capacitance measurement take the charge and discharge time into consideration?

jcandy

TennMan wrote: »

I don't know much about electronics but... wouldn't the charge and discharge time of a capacitor have an effect on how it would effect the sound when compared to another capacitor that measures exactly the same in capacitance

The time it takes a capacitor to discharge is proportional to its capacitance, so two capacitors with the same capacitance have exactly the same discharge time. If you double the capacitance, you double the discharge time.

TennMan wrote: »

Does a capacitance measurement take the charge and discharge time into consideration?

When you measure the capacitance, you are effectively measuring this time. So, in the case of the Sonicap I measured, the lower capacitance means that the discharge time would be a little shorter than the Dayton.

The other issue is that capacitors are not ideal, and also exhibit series and leakage resistance. But, for modern audio capacitors, these effects are extremely small.

FTGV

jcandy wrote: »

, it doesn't matter if they're made with goat **** from Nepal.

That or a three peckered Yak might be a good marketing angle for rebadged Solens.

TennMan

Thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it. I asked the question in an effort to find something that would explain the difference that so many people report they hear between the capacitors. I guess the time factor is not it.