Heavy gauge speaker wire versus ACD technology
Comments
-
Yes you definately want them operating as a point sourcesBecause near-field summation in crucial is a desktop design, I want to squeeze the drivers as close together as possible and cross over below 2kHz.
I think it would be benificial at those levels.I wonder if +6dB is not unreasonable given Fletcher-Munson. -
Electrical, but I have yet to do measurements to see if the actual acoustic slopes are 24db or steeper.In case I wasn't clear it's an active crossover,and the mid actively crosses to a woofer at 300hz.LR4 acoustic? -
J,
While I have respect for everyone here including you, I have to say I agrees with some points that DK had brought out to light.
And I think DK and many folks here are pissed coz this thread smells like you mocking us. I don't deny I felt the same too but whatever your intent was, I don't take it to heart.
So, I think it's in our best interest to move on from here and start a new thread about DIY stuff?
Whatever I said before doesn't mean anything out of respect for you but rather curiosity of what you are trying to prove here as a polkie.
And Please, if may I be so bold to say.
"This is Club Polk! We Never Ever talk about SDA! You just go and enjoy if you got one. If not, we'll help you find one (it's no joke, there is SDA sighting thread here and polkies look out for one another.)"
As long as you agrees to it, we can pop a cold one. :biggrin:
What says you?
Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
While the term SPL is being used(by some) it is actually the frequency response that is being refered to and the subject of the discussion.Yes. In fact, I wrote quite a long post in this thread
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1533768&postcount=93
to clarify the "SPL isn't everything" concern. Numerous related points are addressed as well.
Okay. First, I have enjoyed this thread, but we seem to be all over the map, especially on what is being measured, and whatever conclusion we should get from those measurements.
Maybe I am just dense in regard to the quotes above, but I asked in post 118Other than the fact wire gauge can have an affect on the electrical signal, I still am not sure what is actually being proven or not proven here.
and the reply in post 129 wasThat there is no change in the pressure field (sound) at the position of the microphone.
SPL. Frequency response. Whatever. All I know is I upgraded my speaker cables (not $10,000, only $2,200), and there was an improvement in the sound quality. Was it worth $2,200? For me, yes.
Keep up the research, but try not to outhink yourself with foregone conclusions, or you will just miss the real answer, and somebody else will become famous by discovering the answer to the cable paradox.
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
-
Cool and your ears should always be the final arbiter as to what sounds good.All I know is I upgraded my speaker cables (not $10,000, only $2,200), and there was an improvement in the sound quality. Was it worth $2,200? For me, yes. -
Gladly. Do you want to start a new thread? How about a semi-budget DIY desktop monitor with the Zaph ZA14 woofer and tweeter TBD?So, I think it's in our best interest to move on from here and start a new thread about DIY stuff? -
Gladly. Do you want to start a new thread? How about a semi-budget DIY desktop monitor with the Zaph ZA14 woofer and tweeter TBD?
Cool! I think you or Fred are rightly to start one. :cool:
I am usually an observer. :biggrin:Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
I think the original post by j was designed to show that a beer can changes the speakers frequency response more than speaker wires do.
He uses data to come to this conclusion.
It doesn't really matter what room or what speakers are used in his test. He just needs to keep all the parameters the same (except for the wire and beer can) for each test.
Elegant. -
All I know is I upgraded my speaker cables (not $10,000, only $2,200), and there was an improvement in the sound quality. Was it worth $2,200? For me, yes.
...and thats all that matters now isn't it ? Measurements can tell part of a story, but not all. I would guess though that a PHD isn't required to hear such differences. Even though one's own ears are not a registered tool for accurate measurements, it still remains the final tool that guides our decisions in audio.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
http://www.eetimes.com/design/audio-design/4015821/Loudspeakers-Effects-of-amplifiers-and-cables--Part-5SPL. Frequency response. Whatever. All I know is I upgraded my speaker cables (not $10,000, only $2,200), and there was an improvement in the sound quality. Was it worth $2,200? For me, yes.
Keep up the research, but try not to outhink yourself with foregone conclusions, or you will just miss the real answer, and somebody else will become famous by discovering the answer to the cable paradox."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Good paper. It shows there are multiple ways to measure this issue, and probably still more to be realized.
"It would appear to be the case that certain cable benefits can only be claimed for certain amplifier/loudspeaker combinations, and that any perceived audible improvement heard on any one combination may not necessarily be able to be expected when the cable is used on any other combination"
Also, this part sounds exactly like what MIT cables are designed to address.
"...the practice of separating the frequency range into narrower bandwidths also seems to reduce the demands made of the amplifiers and cables..."Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
I tried putting a frosty mug of beer on my left speaker, but i couldn't concentrate on the changes--so I just drank the beer.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
-
I think the original post by j was designed to show that a beer can changes the speakers frequency response more than speaker wires do.
He uses data to come to this conclusion.
It doesn't really matter what room or what speakers are used in his test. He just needs to keep all the parameters the same (except for the wire and beer can) for each test.
Elegant.I tried putting a frosty mug of beer on my left speaker, but i couldn't concentrate on the changes--so I just drank the beer.
You guys should get your fact straight: it was a Pepsi One, no beer involved :biggrin:Gears shared to both living room & bedroom:
Integra DHC-80.3 / Oppo BDP-105 / DirecTV HR24 DVR /APC S15blk PC-UPS
Living room:
LSiM707's / LSiM706c / LSiM702 F/X's / dual JL Audio Fathom F113's / Parasound Halo A51 / Panasonic 65" TC-P65VT50
Bedroom:
Usher Dancer Mini 2 Diamond DMD's / Logitech SB Touch / W4S STP-SE / W4S DAC-2 / W4S ST-1000 / Samsung 52" LN52B750
Other rooms:
Audioengine AP4's / GLOW Audio Sub One / audio-gd NFB-3 DAC / Audioengine N22
audio-gd NFB-10.2 / Denon AH-D7000 -
You guys should get your fact straight: it was a Pepsi One, no beer involved :biggrin:
Wishful thing on my part. -
Without data, you can believe in pretty much anything.He uses data to come to this conclusion. -
He uses data to come to this conclusion.Without data, you can believe in pretty much anything.
When I see these types of comments this is what I think is being said:
Without using the data I generated or I want you to use, you can't come to the conclusions I want you to and if your don't draw the same conclusion as I do using my data your are wrong. -
Without data, you can believe in pretty much anything.Originally Posted by F1nut
Your memory is as bad as your science.Originally Posted by jcandy
You're right.
....Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Thanks Mike.
The results in that paper were similar to those obtained in my power cable and speaker cable noise performance measurements.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
-
Oh, and please remind me which part of "my science" is confusing you. If you're not specific, I can't respond (which is your intention, I guess)..... -
I don't know this is the right place to ask as I'm new and was this looking for the 2B's so followed your post from the other thread. I posted their with no answer to see if theya re still available. But now I'm reading this one and getting a brain cramp.
-
They're probably not available. I have promised them to someone. However, the promisee hasn't discussed it with his wife yetmossbacked wrote: »I don't know this is the right place to ask as I'm new and was this looking for the 2B's so followed your post from the other thread. I posted their with no answer to see if theya re still available. But now I'm reading this one and getting a brain cramp. If something changes I'll contact you. Thanks for your interest. -
When I see these types of comments this is what I think is being said:
Without using the data I generated or I want you to use, you can't come to the conclusions I want you to and if your don't draw the same conclusion as I do using my data your are wrong.
Discussing data in fine and should be done. I wish more members would do this.
If the graphs of the speaker audio are the same (+ or - 0.Xdb) for all three speaker wires then a conclusion would be that the sound/audio would be the same.
What else would you conclude?
Yes, question the test methods.
Yes, question the accuracy of the equipment.
Yes, question that the microphone represents the sound your ears hear.
Yes, question if the test is repeatable.
Yes, ask if the parameters are correct or can be changed.
Yes,......
All of these questions can be verified or proved wrong with more tests.
It's hard work. And it means getting up and out of the philosophical chair and doing some work.
Ask j to repeat the test, ask to determine the accuracy of the equipment.....
That's the basis of the scientific method. -
That EE Times article is very interesting, and supports alot of what I have "heard" when comparing multi-strand and solid core copper. Many of the multi-strands' sound hashy to me, with a muddled midrange, and grainy treble.
Hmmmm....Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
They're probably not available. I have promised them to someone. However, the promisee hasn't discussed it with his wife yet If something changes I'll contact you. Thanks for your interest.
I probably rushed in my excitement because I just saw you are in CA and I know from helping my friend move they're no lightweight so freight could be a killer. Oh well. -
Yeah, I was going to ask about that too. I think shipping is probably a deal-breaker. Good luck with finding another pair.mossbacked wrote: »I probably rushed in my excitement because I just saw you are in CA and I know from helping my friend move they're no lightweight so freight could be a killer. Oh well. -
Bikezappa to hopefully further explain my position about what I read into your comments I will use an example of a test that I conducted about a year ago. I was looking to purchase for a new AVR for my HT system and I read some stuff on the Internet even asked about it on this forum. Finally got a chance to visit a BB Magnolia store and performed this test:Discussing data in fine and should be done. I wish more members would do this.
Listened to a Onkyo NR1007 = Data Point +1
Listened to Pioneer SC-27 = Data Point +2
Results: Data Point +2 > Data Point +1
Proof of my results I latter purchased a Pioneer SC-27.
So the questions I would raise based on types of comments I quoted are: 1)Was the data I collected wrong? 2)Was the conclusion that I came to wrong? 3)Was the proof of my results inadequate? 4)Is the basis of my method of my scientific invalided? And if so why?If the graphs of the speaker audio are the same (+ or - 0.Xdb) for all three speaker wires then a conclusion would be that the sound/audio would be the same.
What else would you conclude?
I believe one reasonable conclusion would be that a scientific instrument does not currently exist to measure the difference in the sound/audio but some humans have ears that are capable of hearing the difference in the sound/audio. -
First of all, I think nobody disputes the fact that cables do in fact make a difference when they are in the "inadequate" territory of a length versus gauge chart. This was shown clearly in the ACD test. Moreover, the difference is magnified or reduced according to the other circuit elements (amp and speakers). In the ACD test, you see the coloration introduced by the long run of Dayton cable increase as the loudspeaker impedance decreases. So, looking at an impedance versus frequency chart, Z(f), should tell you right away what part of the frequency spectrum is most susceptible to problems. In a carefully-designed loudspeaker (meaning, not a white-van speaker), the impedance won't drop below about 3 to 4 Ohms. Even for a speaker which has a minimum impedance of 3 Ohms (not uncommon with DIY and paralleling low-impedance drivers) then for a 6m (20ft) run, 16AWG is the minimum acceptable gauge. If you have a badly-designed speaker that drops to 1 Ohm somewhere, then the only acceptable wire for this test would be 10 AWG. That's some massive cable ($56 for a 50 foot spool at parts express). In this application 16 AWG would be a disaster. However, if you have a quality loudspeaker that never drops below, say, 6 Ohms, 16AWG is just fine.
Also regarding the study, I find (1) the SPL graphs are impossible to read, (2) difference plots are not shown and differences are not clearly discussed, (3) features of the impedance load are not given.
While the data may be fine (I assume it is) the write-up is rather poor, making it difficult for me to get a real take-home message. For example, if the impedance load dropped to 1 or 2 Ohms somewhere, I would not be surprised at all to see differences even in 12 AWG cables. So, at some level, the article is simply not relevant the the greater question, which has to do with differences when gauge requirements are well-met. -
So the questions I would raise based on types of comments I quoted are: 1)Was the data I collected wrong? 2)Was the conclusion that I came to wrong? 3)Was the proof of my results inadequate? 4)Is the basis of my method of my scientific invalided? And if so why?
I believe one reasonable conclusion would be that a scientific instrument does not currently exist to measure the difference in the sound/audio but some humans have ears that are capable of hearing the difference in the sound/audio.
Listening tests are subjective and depend on many things: mood, source material, set up for example. Data for example would be measured power output and distortion to a known load. Other data would be features of the equipment: Number of channels and input and output jacks. You can get much data from the manufacturer. However, sometimes they lie.
If you liked the equipment and it serves your purpose then you are right. I'm not sure what you want in the equipment to make that judgement.
Scientific data always has units that can be measured like watts, inches, weight, color.....
I think you may have used subjective impressions to make your decision, not sure.
I am not trying to tell you how to make any decisions. Gave that up long ago.
I believe that there are microphones that can measure sound levels and frequency more accurately that our ears. Maybe jcandy can tell you how much more accurately.
