Heavy gauge speaker wire versus ACD technology

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited February 2011
    jcandy wrote: »
    Is Polk, or anyone, still using the SDA crossover design?

    Obviously, not as sharp as you think you are.
    I can give you one reason why you wouldn't want to: lobing. You get horrific lobing with the SDA effect, which leads to an unnatural sound. To my ears, in comparison to a really accurate speaker, the SDAs sound somewhat like they're playing in a well-damped hallway. That is largely due, IMO, to a major dip in the crossover region. IOW, I can hear the problem in the crossover.

    Must be your gear that is the problem as there is no lobing with properly driven SDA's.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited February 2011
    inspiredsports wrote: »
    My point is that Club Polk is most truly blessed to now have TWO true Genius speaker designers on board !! :rolleyes:
    jcandy wrote: »
    No really, please explain your point in more detail. I'm all ears.

    Well, obviously you and Matt Polk are the only two in the world worth a damn.

    And especially you, with brilliant statements like your post #38 which demonstrates how your particular "hey, I'm a Ph.D." brain views the audio world . . .
    jcandy wrote: »
    SPL measures the only thing that your ears do: pressure.

    And you just keep coming back for more.

    I am convinced you are the real Rain Man; a genius at measuring matchsticks, and then covering your ears shorly thereafer and screaming when you hear the truth.

    You've had a good run. It's truly time for you to return to the asylum.
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
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  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited February 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    Obviously, not as sharp as you think you are.
    Is Polk or anyone using the SDA crossover?
    F1nut wrote: »
    Must be your gear that is the problem as there is no lobing with properly driven SDA's.
    Of course there is. Why don't you tell me (1) why lobes are created, and (2) how the SDA manages to avoid them. You can google to answer the first but not the second.
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  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited February 2011
    inspiredsports wrote: »
    And especially you, with brilliant statements ...
    Please, quit stalling and explain your original point in more detail.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited February 2011
    inspiredsports wrote: »
    And especially you, with brilliant statements like your post #38 ""
    Originally Posted by jcandy
    SPL measures the only thing that your ears do: pressure.

    I've been waiting for that one. Nothing says hypocrite quite like it.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited February 2011
    You can google to answer the first but not the second.

    I don't need to Google to know what lobing is, you do plenty of it.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited February 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    I've been waiting for that one. Nothing says hypocrite quite like it.
    How is that? What else do your ears measure except pressure? Please explain.
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  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited February 2011
    F1nut wrote: »
    I don't need to Google to know what lobing is, you do plenty of it.
    If you knew what lobing was you wouldn't have made that silly comment about SDA not producing lobes, now would you? So, knowing that all speakers produce lobes (even single-way because of diffraction), please, please tell me how the SDA avoids them.
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,243
    edited February 2011
    I might need to get a part time job...
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,243
    edited February 2011
    Dang I was hoping those were the magic words to close a thread... LOL
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited February 2011
    If I blindfold Rain Man and randomly drop a matchstick on the floor 2 meters from Rain Man's ears, can Rain Man pick it up?
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
    TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
    PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
    Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited February 2011
    I don't have serious conversations with hypocrites, never mind trolls and a pretty bad one at that.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,420
    edited February 2011
    inspiredsports wrote: »
    If I blindfold Rain Man and randomly drop a matchstick on the floor 2 meters from Rain Man's ears, can Rain Man pick it up?


    I think yes... I will let the Geico man explain my reasons.

    :tongue:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2La-BTuVOf0


    Sorry guys... I cannot get the embed to work.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited February 2011
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    I think yes... I will let the Geico man explain my reasons.

    :tongue:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2La-BTuVOf0


    Sorry guys... I cannot get the embed to work.

    I think he should have asked, "Does a bear **** on a mountain?" unless those were the worlds tiniest trees.
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
    TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
    PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
    Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
    GIK panels
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited February 2011
    jcandy wrote: »
    and (2) how the SDA manages to avoid them. You can google to answer the first but not the second.
    I 'll take a guess:biggrin:I assume you mean horizontal lobing between the stereo and dimensional driver?While some lobing is unavoidable the fact that the dimensional driver is only reproducing the difference signal and at what I understand several DB lower in level.Therefore the interference pattern between the dimenssional and stereo driver may not be as severe?
    I should add that driver spacing is important aswell,isn't the dimensional and stereo drivers set very close together in the SDA 2 ?
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  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited February 2011
    I find the lot of you most remarkable, in a bad way.
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  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited February 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    I 'll take a guess:biggrin:I assume you mean horizontal lobing between the stereo and dimensional driver?
    Yes. But its not purely horizontal -- the vertical lobes that would be left-right symmetric in the case that the driver orientation is symmetric (like in the monitor 10) will change their orientation.
    FTGV wrote: »
    While some lobing is unavoidable the fact that the dimensional driver is only reproducing the difference signal and at what I understand several DB lower in level.
    The level of the dimensional woofer depends on (a) the amount of stereo separation, (b) the frequency. The 2nd order LP in the stereo woofer actually has a lower crossover point than the dimensional woofer (the dimensional woofer uses a 2.5mH inductor, the stereo woofer a 1.25mH unit). But, I think its safe to say that the dimensional woofer can play as loud as the stereo woofer for material with good stereo separation, in particular at higher frequency. Presumably the higher crossover point of the dimensional woofer was a concession from the use of a dimensional tweeter on earlier SDA designs.

    Finally, at very low frequency (50Hz) the monster-inductor (16mH) kills the SDA effect to save the dimensional woofer from playing nothing (because at low frequency, L-R=0). So, I think the SDA lobing is pretty complicated.
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  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,501
    edited February 2011
    jcandy wrote: »
    I find the lot of you most remarkable, in a bad way.

    You always seem to have a boom mic in front of a speaker. Do you ever listen to both speakers at one time? Are you sure you don't have your mono button depressed? Do multiple rows of the same instrument (considered as line arrays) in a band or orchestra cause you to lose sleep at night?
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
    TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
    PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
    Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
    GIK panels
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited February 2011
    May be SDA speakers work outside of the realm of the conventional box speakers.

    May be SDA speakers don't utilize the conventional XO, speaker baffle size, driver arrangement and spacing. I think Polk built several enclosure for each speaker and then decide the baffle size and box size. The conventional box and XO design may not apply to SDA speakers.

    But I am not really sure since SDA is out of my interest. It's out of my interest not coz SDA speakers doesn't sound good. It's just that I haven't found a good SDA1.2TL near me yet. :biggrin:

    It's well documented that SDA effects are based on the program materials and what track you are playing with.

    Therefore, the conventional speaker measurement of SPL may not says everything about the SDA and how it's sounding in real life. And simple SPL plots may not have enough data to interpret SDA lobing correctly.

    It's an interesting subject but only Polk Engineer would know how to correctly measure and interpret SDA speakers.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited February 2011
    jcandy wrote: »
    Yes. But its not purely horizontal -- the vertical lobes that would be left-right symmetric in the case that the driver orientation is symmetric (like in the monitor 10) will change their orientation.
    Sorry you'll have to translate or speak slowly as I'm blonde and it's after my beddy bye time.:smile:

    The 2nd order LP in the stereo woofer actually has a lower crossover point than the dimensional woofer (the dimensional woofer uses a 2.5mH inductor, the stereo woofer a 1.25mH unit).
    It appears to be the other way around ,2.5 mh on the stereo woofer with the 1.25 mh on the dimenional.Since they are different drivers and the values of the inductors direct multiples It's possible the dimenional drivers impedance is half that of the stereo drivers?
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  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited February 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    I should add that driver spacing is important aswell,isn't the dimensional and stereo drivers set very close together in the SDA 2 ?
    Yes and yes. Of course, "close" in the design sense means closer than (roughly) a wavelength at the crossover frequency. Farther than that and its pretty well accepted that the speaker will be poor. To create a lobe, all you need are two drivers playing the same frequency, and the greater the ratio of wavelength to driver spacing, the safer you are. But in the case of the SDA2B we have the added effect (unlike say an MTM) of very different signals radiating from each driver but with overlapping frequencies.
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited February 2011
    Does it suck to be lonely Jcandy?
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited February 2011
    jcandy wrote: »
    Yes and yes. Of course, "close" in the design sense means closer than (roughly) a wavelength at the crossover frequency. Farther than that and its pretty well accepted that the speaker will be poor. To create a lobe, all you need are two drivers playing the same frequency, and the greater the ratio of wavelength to driver spacing, the safer you are.
    Yep I've read Dr. D'Appolito's SB articles.
    But in the case of the SDA2B we have the added effect (unlike say an MTM) of very different signals radiating from each driver but with overlapping frequencies.
    I certainly could be in error but my previous point being that since there should be some frequency and amplitude differences between the dimensional and stereo signal.This should create less interference thus less severe lobing than if the signals were of the same frequency and amplitude?
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  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited February 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    It appears to be the other way around ,2.5 mh on the stereo woofer with the 1.25 mh on the dimenional.
    Yes, typo. Thanks. My ability to make typos is increasing rapidly with age :mad:
    FTGV wrote: »
    Since they are different drivers and the values of the inductors direct multiples It's possible the dimenional drivers impedance is half that of the stereo drivers?
    Yes, I bet that's true. However (and this is not important) its seems unlikely that the 6511 has exactly 1/2 the Z of the 6503 in the crossover region.

    So, in any case, in a passage with strong stereo separation (uncorrelated signals), it looks to me like the stereo and dimensional woofers are effectively playing equally "loud" R and R-L signals respectively (or L and L-R).
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited February 2011
    jcandy wrote: »

    So, in any case, in a passage with strong stereo separation (uncorrelated signals), it looks to me like the stereo and dimensional woofers are effectively playing equally "loud" R and R-L signals respectively (or L and L-R).
    Maybe, that would be dependant upon the relative sensitivity differences between the S & D drivers.
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  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited February 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    Yep I've read Dr. D'Appolito's SB articles.I certainly could be in error but my previous point being that since there should be some frequency and amplitude differences between the dimensional and stereo signal.This should create less interference thus less severe lobing than if the signals were of the same frequency and amplitude?
    Its a complex speaker to analyze. Of course there is a case where what you are suggesting does happen: if the stereo separation is weak, L-R is almost zero and the dimensional driver is nearly silent. But that's the case where you've just got a monitor 7 on steroids. Well, not quite, you've got a monitor 7 with the main lobe now pointing off to one side of the speaker. But for very dramatic stereo separation, it looks to me like you've got problems, and that's where the SDA is supposed to shine.
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  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited February 2011
    FTGV wrote: »
    Maybe, that would be dependant upon the relative sensitivity differences between the S & D drivers.
    Sure.
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  • jcandy
    jcandy Posts: 501
    edited February 2011
    ben62670 wrote: »
    Does it suck to be lonely Jcandy?
    Quite the opposite. I have a beautiful wife and daughter that keep me happy and well-entertained. We would have all gone to the movies tonight but I have a cold. That's why I have some extra time normally spent on family, sports, work, etc.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited February 2011
    Please show us the measurements in regards to this lobing effect. I mean you are the measurement guy and only SPL matters according to your own statements. I've heard lobing before and there is none present in the SDA's. Well, maybe not none as this effect is present. I;ll say I don't hear any detrimental effect from sever lobing.

    You might want to get your learn on about SDA's as general audio statements don't seem to apply to SDA's. I could go through the white paper and point out where you are incorrect in your assumptions, but why waste my time you still won't believe it and have a bunch more excuses why you are right and Polk engineers are wrong.

    Are SDA's the greatest speakers in the world? Nope, but you are way off on your assumptions. As I told you back in October in another of your threads, you don't have to like the SDA's, they aren't for everyone..............but your statement about lobing is way off.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • ohskigod
    ohskigod Posts: 6,502
    edited February 2011
    apparently, we need to bring up Lou's easy peezy rule for stereo stuff.

    a) like it? keep it
    b) don't like it? broom it
    c) don't overthink these things, they are stereos for god sake!! I'm nutty for this hobby like the next guy but this thread makes me ashamed, and by this thread I mean Candy
    d) if you need your PHd knowlege to enjoy and or analyze stereo gear and your not getting paid for it? Buy and Ipod and ear buds and just be done with it, it CANT be worth the effort......it just can't be
    e) What the F&*K is lobing? sounds like some kinky stuff you do with a hot college coed's ear, but since that would actually be cool, I have a feeling that is not the context here.
    f) Don't like SDA's? Dont buy them. I assume there are not a horde of vikings breaking down your door and throwing SDA's into you livingroom.
    g) Like SDA's? eff other people's opinions. I'm spending hundreds of dollars on an LSi9 crosssover upgrade, think I dont expect some to think I am insane for that? thank god I dont need there approval. speakers, like anything else, just run what ya brung


    This thread makes Star Trek fans look downright gangster.
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