How good are your speakers?

Klegg

DON73 wrote: »

I'm 73 and my hearing is not as good as it was 15 years back when I bought my B&W 801s and B&W 803 Matrix speakers. When I go visit a friend in the only mid/hi level shop in town I might listen to Paradigm or new B&W Nautilus speakers. While I can easily afford any speaker in the shop nothing I hear is more pleasing to my ears than what I have at home. I won't be buying anymore new speakers instead I'm buying speakers up to 35 years old just for the fun of comparing the way they sound and I can say they all sound surprisingly good although they sound different. New and expensive doesn't always mean better. Your hearing is ALL that matters. If a pair of $200 speakers sound good to you there's no real need to spend more. What others think of the speakers you have shouldn't matter a whit. You're the one who will be listening.

Listen to him we must. Wisdom he has.

ben62670

newrival wrote: »

Sunfire makes/made a receiver that is relatively just as good as using your sunfire pre/pro and amp setup. It contains essentially the same components. There are also a handful receivers that would perform even better.

I have to disagree. When new codecs/features come out then you end up throwing out the baby with the bath water. Buy a real amp and a decent pre with the features that you will use. Then when you feel the need to upgrade you still have that great amp. Spending good money on a receiver is a waste. Nobody wants to buy yesterdays technology when it comes to HT.

B&W802d

BlueFox wrote: »

However, I am wondering whether I should go crazy and upgrade to speakers in the 15K area. For example, in that range there are Thiel CS 3.7, B&W 802D, and Wilson Sophia speakers, and I'm sure others. I seriously doubt if they did not work quite well there would not be a market for them. Yet, there is.

I have been at this quite some time and can say money has nothing to do with it except for one exception. It makes it easier to buy higher end equipment. There are positives and negatives associated with this as well. I was as happy with my first couple of systems as I am with my current setup. I didn't know any difference back then. The only real difference is I have about $25,000.00 more into this system as of right now. Once I pick up my newest additions I am in the $60,000.00 plus realm with all other gear factored in.

Right now I am in the process of picking up another pair of B&W 802d (and Classe monoblocks) for surrounds so my HT will be almost complete. I was looking at the 800d and the Nautilus speakers for mains but have decided to stay with the 802d. Not sure what I will be using for the height channels yet. So to answer the op question, how good are my speakers......awesome to me but will not be appealing and crap to others. B&W speakers are a love/hate affair. Not to many middle of the road people when it comes to B&W. Either you like them or you don't imo.

mantis

Howmuch wrote: »

Let me try to put this another way.
If a sound engineer with all his high tech gadgets were to measure the sound output from a $1000 speaker and one from a $10,000 dollar speaker how much variation do you think he will get. Do you see where I'm coming from . Taking away preference and looks ,what will the numbers say.
If anyone has true data or links I would love to read them.
If a speakers only job is to output the source its given ,as accurately as possible.Then should this not be an easy test for a sound analyzer?
At what price point is the AVERAGE person going to find it hard to discern the difference from one speaker to the next.
Please understand I know more expensive speakers will technically reproduce sound better but wheres the plateau at what price point does the diminishing returns start to kick in. If a person asked your advice on how much to spend for a Pair of good speakers, at what price point would you feel comfortable starting at (and no you dont know their budget )

You can get a good pair of speakers for starting around 500 bucks in a book shelf model. In a floor standing model good speakers start around 700.00. At this level of speaker you get good sound , it's not great sound but nice and could make most happy for a very long time.
Now when you move into the 1000.00 range bookshelf and 1200.00 floor standing speaker , you enter a higher end class of sound. You get more of the sound , you hear more , speakers start to do more things right instead of being stripped down from the highest end model of this brand.
Now not everyone is willing to pay more for speakers then this class here. It's what separates the casual listener to the discerning listener. Speakers costing 1500.00 and up for bookshelf is made for someone who is looking for a accurate true to life speaker. Same goes with floor standing starting at 1700.00 and up. This can be said where the magic begins.
Once you enter the 3000.00 anything speaker price is where you start making smaller gains and refinements. This is the level of an audiophile who is willing to spend more money for the best sound he can get. Your not going for broke(some may here) but you want to sit down and feel the singer in the room, think you are apart of the movie etc.
After this level you get into ultra high end speakers costing upwards of 700k to 100k+. At this level not many of us can even dream of owning. Are these speakers better then others below them? Yeah they are at this level companies are free to use all of their resources to make the very best speaker money can buy. Just go listen to a pair of Dynaudio Master series and know exactly what reproduced music sounds like. No other speaker can perform like these at this level , others in this price class yes but no 5k speaker can outperform them. They are using the best materials , the best drivers , the best of everything that is required to reproduce sound exactly how it sound be.
So here is what I'm saying in a nutshell , all companies make sacrifices to to meet a budget so the best they can do is not present in their lower end speakers. They are a trickle down of what could or can be.
So 20 years in this hobby and you don't know any of this? I'm surprised as leave your wallet at home and just listen to the differences cost is no object speakers. Then go back to what you can afford and hear what you are missing.

mantis

ben62670 wrote: »

I have to disagree. When new codecs/features come out then you end up throwing out the baby with the bath water. Buy a real amp and a decent pre with the features that you will use. Then when you feel the need to upgrade you still have that great amp. Spending good money on a receiver is a waste. Nobody wants to buy yesterdays technology when it comes to HT.

No matter how you look at this it's unavoidable. Preamps most of the time cost more then receivers. Even higher end receivers cost less then a good preamp.

It really comes down to the demand of your speakers on which road gets traveled but I don't completely disagree with you , from a certain point of view it makes total sense.

mantis

Howmuch wrote: »

Than you all for your post, I will take the advice of those that know more than me. I will start my search at around the $3000 mark. I would have just hoped that by now they would have been better ways to compare speakers more scientifically. Even if you get to demo 25 pairs of speakers theres so many more you cant find to demo, the English and U.S speaker market brands are very different to. So for the average persons ability to discern different speakers is limited because there doesn't seem to be another way to compare them.

Can somebody tell me why its such as stupid idea to have a set of specifically designed benchmark test next to a speaker advertisement so that comparisons would be easier. i know this wouldn't be the only criteria but it would help.

We benchmark practically everything else

You can buy anything based on spec. But when it comes to sound , 2 speakers with similar spec's can sound very different. Take a Klipsch speaker and a Polk speaker with close spec's , they sound nothing alike. They send sound into the room differently but cover the same frequencies.

In order to buy a speaker , one must listen to it. No meter can tell you what sounds good or not to you. We all have tones that please us.

mantis

Howmuch wrote: »

Unfortunately the country I am presently in does not allow me the luxury to demo any worthwhile speakers. I am not making this up. I therefore have the task of buying speakers and equipment from the net. All i can do is basically read reviews and try to come to some conclusions. thats why I harped on so much about comparison test.
However i get your points , the only true way to know is to listen (which I cant do)
I'm probably not the first or last person that will have such a problem

All you have to do is find an expert (like me) to ask you the right questions and find the right gear for you is easy. Us professionals have done all the homework for you. You also have to find the "right" professional who is not just looking to take your money and sell you want they have in stock or make the most money off of.

Tour2ma

dorokusai wrote: »

It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion.

Here, here...

I have a new quote...

LitoZacky

There are a few different answers for the OP. His preference is HT and lucky him, its less nick-pick than music.

1)For HT, a good $200 floorstander a piece will provide more than good enough sound quality. The majority of the slam will come from either 1 or 2 subwoofers. You could buy an AVR with preout if you want to upgrade the amp in the future.

2) A pair of speaker's price alone will sometimes be only about 40% of the total cost. You have to think about a pre/pro, amp, cable, dac/CDP, of equivalent caliber to the speaker. It's only as good as the weakest link.

3) There is definitely the law of diminishing returns, how much and how worthy the upgrade is, is always subjective. You are not missing much after a pair of $10k speaker. For casual listening, the difference will most likely not be noticeable. Buy what your budget can afford.

I think I saw your budget at $3k, Buy a 5-channel amp under $1k. Buy 5 speakers at around $200 each, I recommend floorstander 8ohm so you won't have to spend $ on speaker stands. get a mid-fi AVR with preout to connect to your amp. The rest of the money should be spent on Subwoofer as it will give you the most significant pleasure for your HT experience. Get a subwoofer you can afford for now. Then save money for a really good subwoofer such as the SVS pb-13 ultra ($1800) or a Seaton Submersive ($2100, slightly better than SVS). Once you got the good subwoofer, sell the one you had in the beginning. Go dual sub after that point if you want more bass. If you are a bassnut and want something capable of damaging your hearing and shaking the foundation of your house at the same time, get the ED a7-900.

It is inevitable to feel the urge to upgrade what you have in this hobby. It is always a thrill to have some new toys every once in a while. Give up trying to get the "best" sound. You will never suceed even if you're the richest man in the world because "best sound" is highly subjective, what sounded "best" to you could be just "really good" to someone else.

thesurfer

If you have been in this hobby for as long as you say,, and have spent a good amount,,of money, and have heard all the advise, from all these folks, plus Mantis, who does this for a living,,, and still seem lost,,, just go out and get a pair of Bose, 301,s and tell your self there the best there ever was, in other words, you can spend a ton of money,, and still not be happy,,, may as well save some money, and not be happy,,,

steveinaz

I think bookshelf/monitors give you the most bang for your buck. My speakers were $1750/pr, but are some of the most enjoyable speakers I have ever owned. With a monitor you get alot of the technology trickled down from the higher-end models, but at far less due to smaller enclosures/less material needed. You also get incredible soundstaging/imaging, and typically less, albeit far more articulated bass. The large Energy C-9's that my monitors replaced, dug deeper, but the bass quality is no where near that of my monitors.

I did ALOT of research (2 years) before purchasing my monitors. I've seen nothing under $5k/pr that I would take in trade for my speakers.

ScottL79

i went to ebay and typed in "speakers" and sorted by highest price first.... i was shocked to see there are speakers for $250,000!!! thats as much as my house!!! WTH?? not only that, there were multiple optios at $250,000!!!

someone please explain to me how this is even real?

BlueFox

ScottL79 wrote: »

i went to ebay and typed in "speakers" and sorted by highest price first.... i was shocked to see there are speakers for $250,000!!! thats as much as my house!!! WTH?? not only that, there were multiple optios at $250,000!!!

someone please explain to me how this is even real?

You live in an inexpensive house. :rolleyes:

Buy a $10,000,000 dollar house.

tonyb

ScottL79 wrote: »

i went to ebay and typed in "speakers" and sorted by highest price first.... i was shocked to see there are speakers for $250,000!!! thats as much as my house!!! WTH?? not only that, there were multiple optios at $250,000!!!

someone please explain to me how this is even real?

If we have to explain, then maybe audio isn't your bag.

You have cars in the 500,000 dollar range
Wine that cost 20 g's a bottle

For every income bracket,theirs a product to fit your wallet. Whats not to understand ?

ScottL79

BlueFox wrote: »

You live in an inexpensive house. :rolleyes:

Buy a $10,000,000 dollar house.

haha, i watch HGTV and stuff... you are right, but i live in Texas... a $250k house here is like a $1.5 mil house in california and new york, etc..

newrival

cfrizz wrote: »

But how many people are going to be willing to pay Sunfire's kind of money? They can buy a less expensive receiver and separate amp for less.

So what? you can do a lot of cheaper things to get inferior results. Does that mean you should?

You paid for Sunfire, didn't you?

And Why pay for a receiver if you just going to buy an external amp? Sunfire's "the Receiver" can be found for 600-800 on occasion. You said, "know that a receiver will NOT drive them to their full potential," and that simply isn't true.

B&W802d

I have to agree Steve that your C7 are some nice speakers. May be a little laid back for some but after the dust clears your speakers can be listened to for hours and hours with no listener fatigue. Actually, when you and Sean were going round and round about speakers that is what gave me the upgrade bug (thanks alot,lol). Speakers are only as good as you think they are. Some will like them, some will not. I am going through that mid life crisis crap and have spent more than I care to admit. It's not just audio I have stepped my game up on. At least it's all paid for so I have no worries down the road. I live my life like that. If I can't pay for it 100% up front then I don't need it.

Howmuch

Let em clarify one mistake in my post. I should not have said 20yrs in this hobby. I meant 20 yrs of buying audio equipment on and off.I suppose I never had the time or the money to buy Proper audio equipment until now . I've never purchased speakers over the $1000.00 mark . I have more money and time now ,so I wanted to have an ides about pricing so I could feel comfortable about my purchase . $3000 was the max I wanted to pay for my speakers alone but would have preferred to pay less if I was pointed to speakers that where good for a lower price.
I unfortunately still have the problem of not being able to demo speakers in any real quantity in the country I'm in.
I however do feel more confident about my purchases because the people of this forum have taken time and patience to answer my questions and now at least I can ask about something before I buy.So please bare with me in the future when I ask foolish question their born from ignorance not stupidity (no there not the same thing.I hope)

cnh

For 3000 you should be able to get something 'nice' on the used market. But then there is amplification and pres and the SOURCE(S) and cables and power units...and...and....and. And you know even when you hear a Good or GREAT set up. Once you hear it for more than a few days you start to hear its shortcomings, or it doesn't even sound the same on Friday as it did on Wednesday...go figure. This has happens to me ALL THE time, even at PolkFest, one day things sound great the next they're OK. Then they're better again? Sometimes I think I'm losing my mind....or weather, the room, the number of people in the room and electrical variances from the city power station and NOISE are all HAUNTING ME?? I swear it's almost NEVER exactly the same!!

So in addition to SYNERGY...how about the problem of CONSISTENCY?? Am I the only one with this problem? I hear the men in the white coats coming for 'me'? Shhhh!

cnh

98Badger

cnh wrote: »

So in addition to SYNERGY...how about the problem of CONSISTENCY?? Am I the only one with this problem? I hear the men in the white coats coming for 'me'? Shhhh!

cnh

No, it's not just you. Some days my system blows me away, and other I think, "it sounds ok". I find quite a bit depends on my mood. A day later I'm back to "Wow!"

Howmuch

Is there any issues with buying second hand speakers ,any special things to be aware of. Would you recommend a person with little experience buy second hand speakers or equipment

newrival

Howmuch wrote: »

Is there any issues with buying second hand speakers ,any special things to be aware of. Would you recommend a person with little experience buy second hand speakers or equipment

Nothing wrong with it at all. And I, and I'm sure the majority of people here, will recommend that is what you do.

Have a look on audiogon and i think you'll see your 3k can go pretty far. My main stereo speakers are almost as old as I am (from 1986) and you'd think they were relatively new. Generally speaking, mid-fi and hi-fi gear is quite robust and will last a long time.

I'm not sure if you're looking for components, But there are some great ways to save cash in that respect with something Like the Creek Destiny (Stereophile Class A) integrated amp, or the NAD c375-bee integratd amp.

ysss

@howmuch: you need to take a vacation, man.... preferably to a place where you can demo as many stuffs as possible you might be able to score them for lower cost too, if you handcarry the items with you than to have em shipped.

Tour2ma

thesurfer wrote: »

...just go out and get a pair of Bose, 301,s and tell your self there the best there ever was, in other words, you can spend a ton of money,, and still not be happy,,, may as well save some money, and not be happy,,,

Nothing wrong with starting with 301's... blasphemy? No.

Everyone starts somewhere on the food chain. If you shop vintage, and local, you can almost always get out what you put in.

So unless you're trying to go crazy, don't sweat looking for the best right out of the box.... just get out of the effin' box with good and go from there.

steveinaz

Exactly Bruce, if nothing else, you could never call Bose "fatiguing."

Howmuch

Have any of you had experience with Mission speakers. I had heard a setup with them many years back and had liked them (at least they were far better than mine at the time)

virtualdean

Howmuch wrote: »

Trinidad .I have tried to call around but the selections are very limited ,plenty car stuff my not much mid or high end audio. All the shops can get anything i want but I can do that too.

Well fancy that. i was just in that same situation last year. I am in Bahrain, in the Persian Gulf. All I can get locally are Bose 901's at a much higher costs than the US but I already have them
I had narrowed my search to 3 brands/models. all of them too heavy/large to go USPS. US Postal Service

Paradigm Studio 100s...first choice. They were willing to ship them Fedex but at a very high price.

Axiom M80's....same thing, Fedex shipping..they were willing to let me test them out for 30 days after arrival.

Polk rti A9's...same sort of deal...

the killer for all of them is besides the high shipping charges were they could not tell me what the customs charges would be.. In Bahrain it is high. So all was for naught.
So, the moral is you can anything shipped via fedex/dhl. You just have to pay for shipping and customs.
You can have some of them for 30 days testing..
But, above all..find out what customs charges you will pay. They are non refundable. Usually. I don't know..Trinidad has a lot of British customs and may be reasonable. Bahrain is Arabic and though liberal by Arabian standards, can be sticky.

I lucked out as I finally got the US Military Exchange to ship me them for free and for no customs.

Good luck.

virtualdean

duplicate post..sorry

Howmuch

Yeah customs rapes me over here too but I have a Skybox so shipping is easier but speakers still end up at least $300-400 U.S more

ROHfan

Am I the only one here impressed by Howmuch's refusal to be baited in by some of the condescending remarks made in this thread? I have often wondered the same thing as his original question: At what price point does it become less about sound and more about aesthetics/looks/status? My cheesy R50's cost me under $200 and they sound better that anything any of my friends or family have or will ever have.

Sheesh.