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Airplay355 · August 2003

would it be easier to build a passive sub and use a sampson or crown amp or something to power it? it seems easier.

is it hard to build something that looks nice? i would have to build a cylinder because of space limitations

goingganzo · August 2003

the good thing about a pasave sub is you can get a good pro amp and have more and cleaner power than a plate amp. the down side is you dont get ss filter or phase control with out a add on.

Ceruleance · August 2003

back on topic, I went out and bought the EE (extended edition) version today, and finally ran the ring drop sequence. I'm definitely getting a nice hit, no bottoming, but you guys must be running your subs pretty hot because although it was loud, it didnt sound THAT loud, and yet the master volume I was probably getting peaks of 95 db on the rest of the battle sequence, possibly higher. I like it loud, but this was fatiguing and almost painful, I definitely wouldnt have listened at that level for more than the length of that scene. Its past bedtime (for the family, not myself) so I will have to put off testing till tomorrow, but I will need to break out the SPL meter and take some readings eventually, because although I can usually gauge within reason an SPL for music, I dont have much experience with single freq. like that. Will report later.

--My comments on the EE version: I appreciate the added scenes in the beginning, I would rather have them then not, but what really made this version worth its asking price is the extended orc battle scene footage at the end, I wouldnt want to watch it any other way. Oh, and not to mention the DTS. Can't wait for TTT EE

goingganzo · August 2003

you get a tolerance to bass i have had a bass in my car for over 10 years. at first you are in wow then you get usto it. i dont play my car system that loud but some cd give me a presure headache. but they are few and far between. it is the ultra low stuff that dues it. also you can dammage your body if you can play a super o fr loud i mean sub 10 hz.

Dr. Spec · August 2003

Originally posted by Ceruleance
I'm definitely getting a nice hit, no bottoming, but you guys must be running your subs pretty hot because although it was loud, it didnt sound THAT loud, and yet the master volume I was probably getting peaks of 95 db on the rest of the battle sequence, possibly higher. I like it loud, but this was fatiguing and almost painful, I definitely wouldnt have listened at that level for more than the length of that scene.

I am calibrated to Avia 85 dB all around at Master Volume 00. The sub tone checks in around 89-90 dB, so yes it is running a bit hot for HT. But remember, Avia is a true DD disc so the sub tone is not discrete. So the surround tower contributes quite a bit to the sub tone with an 80 Hz crossover.

Anyway, I can hit 110 dB on the ring drop at the seat on the meter at Master Volume -15 and it is quite loud overall, but still listenable. At Master Volume -10, I hit 115 at the seat on the meter and the surround channels are painfully loud at that point.

Just trying to give you a reference point to work off. Remember, the goal is to hit 110 at the seat on the meter without bottoming. You can always turn off the RABOS and up the sub level so the surround channels are not painfully loud. It doesn't have to sound balanced and be properly calibrated for the test. We're just testing to see how much real world output the sub can deliver at 25 Hz without choking.

Doc

Ron-P · August 2003

Finally got around to the Ring drop. Ran the DD version off the EE DVD. At -3 reference, the 177L hit 116 db @ 10' away. I had all other channels turned off, running the .1 only.

Peace Out~:D

burdette · August 2003

Air,

You don't have to choose between a passive or powered sub, whether you build a tube or box. I built a sonosub and am using a PE plate amp for the power. But the amp is outboard, not built in to anything except its own box. If I want a new amp, all I have to do is plug the sub-out into it and it into the sub.

Certainly you can build a wooden box and cut a hole for a specific plate amp, but you don't have to mount the amp on that box, or you can mount the amp in its own box and attach that box to the enclosure... lots of possibilities. The point being... buying an inexpensive plate amp now does not, in any way, preclude you from upgrading the amp later, and you won't have to do a thing to the sub itself at that time.

Just so it has been said... you aren't going to be 'nailing a box together' even if you don't care much about aesthetics. You are going to have to construct a solid, beefy box with screws and glue and braces and such. The drivers under discussion here would literally blow apart a nailed box. Pretty cool to watch, I'd wager, but won't do much for sound quality. I think everyone here who has upgraded to a "real" sub has discovered which parts of their supposedly solid houses and trappings will vibrate and shake and make noise. You can crack the seam in drywall, for example.

Ceruleance · August 2003

Alright! i'm in the club. 110 dB exactly and I didnt turn it past that. Interesting to see the grille cloth of the subwoofer freak out, my arm and leg hairs tingle, and the lights flicker. Also interesting to note that RABOS didnt really have an effect, on or off, I can't remember from when I calibrated it, but perhaps I didnt have a room gain in the 23 hz range. Despite hitting the mark, I really wasnt terribly impressed by that sequence. What's the frequency when he first cuts his hand and it is flying in the air? I was getting 114.5 dB unweighted on that, but it sounds like it has some higher frequency mixed in, which I think contributes. I had to turn the center and surrounds off, I can't imagine how loud it would be if I left everything on.

Definitely that 80 hz crossover is affecting the level of your sub vs. mine, I have my mains set to large, because they have nearly the same frequency extension as my subwoofer, the exact same driver, and the same amplifier. I would want to send some of the low freq. material to the sub (especially for music) the problem is that my processor has a fixed crossover of 100 Hz. There are two ways to get by this, both non-ideal: as of last week I had the sub hooked up via the high level inputs going to the front channels. This way I get the sub to play the front material, but lose the discreet .1 channel. I could also use low level input for all 3 subs, but then I would need a 25ft interconnect to snake along the wall, I would lose discreet bass effects (which is most likely audible considering the 100 hz crossover) and the mains, which are designed to have a 150 hz crossover, would have a 100hz crossover. I think there is a bass management update for the 2.0 and im going to check into it, It will probably provide some workaround to my situation, but otherwise I'm fine with the levels I am getting for HT, I just won't have the optimal system for future PWC tests

Dr. Spec · August 2003

Ron-P and the mighty Tempest check in at an impressive 116 dB - nice!

And Ceruleance makes the cut at 110 while dimming the lights. I don't know how much of that ring drop is ".1" vs. low passed bass from the mains. Based on Ron-P's results, I would say nearly all of it is ".1", but you can certainly check the woofs in the mains (at a lower volume) if you are running on large and see if they also move on that passage. If they do, shutting off the mains could have handicapped you.

Looks like there is some 35 Hz bass when his hand flys up in the air. Your sub might be able to play that a few dB louder than the 25 Hz stuff. What sub are you running? An Infinity? I checked your sig and the showcase and don't see anything.

Doc

Airplay355 · August 2003

where would i cross my rti150s at for HT? 80 hz seems altitle high for those speakers, but...i dont really understand the setup of blending a subwoofer into your system with the xo.

sorry for being off topic but all this subwoofer talk got me thinking

Ceruleance · August 2003

airplay, I wouldnt cross your speakers at all, they have plenty of extension

Doc - Im running an Infinity Interlude IL120s, (12" 500 w BASH amp), and IL60 powered towers, (same 12" driver and 500w amp). They are both only rated to 28 hz at minus 3 dB anechoic, so that 23 hz material requires a lot of power and a little room gain to achieve (thats why the rest of the material is so loud when I hit 110 dB (i'm just piecing this together for myself)) So the lowest of the low isn't where my system shines, but as I have said before, with that hand flying scene at 35 hz, and pretty much anything above 30 hz I can hit 115 dB, unweighted. My system definitely lacks those last few aubible frequencies, and that subsonic punch, which is why I think that particular example seemed so lackluster to me. It also may be because i'm fairly sure my hearing cuts out around 22-23 hz

I will have to go look up the waterfalls on SVS, but off the top of your head, whats a good bass demo for the 30-50 hz region?

Dr. Spec · August 2003

I've heard the 120 - it's a good sub. It moves a lot of air and sounds pretty good and people were getting them cheap on UBid - like $300-$400 if I recall. I agree, it probably starts trailing off below 30 Hz and might struggle a bit with 25 Hz stuff, but it still digs deeper than most subs.

When you say unweighted, are you referring to the SPL after you add the correction factor? C-weighted is the direct reading off the meter. Unweighted is after the CF is added.

Without a doubt, the hottest bass hit I have in the 40-50 Hz region is the RPG blast in Ronin. Man does that hit hard. Also, the Sauron reverse sweep (referenced above) shockwave is very loud and drops to 55 Hz.

RuSsMaN · August 2003

I'm out.

105db @ 8ft with the old DCM Sub One. I didn't bottom it, but didn't care to push my luck either.

(single 10", bandpass enclosure, slot port, 195w amp, F3 28Hz)

Cheers,
Russ

Ron-P · August 2003

Ran a second test, came out hitting 118db at -3 with all channels driven. I'm sure I could keep going, but I quit. Once I blew out the right rear light bulb, I figured time to quell the sub and have a beer. I may attempt to clear the 120db mark, but not tonight.

Happy thumping:)

Peace Out~:D

HBombToo · August 2003

my meter swamps:D i'm truely not sure what the dB value is but its way cool... untill the Sherry GLARE!!!!!!:p

sorry but thats why i bought a VU meter. I can measure both peak and average voltages.

Ceruleance · August 2003

Doc-
yeah I took advantage of the Ubid blow outs. The sub was actually the first Interlude piece I bought, and then I ended up picking up the rest of the system (except IL10 surrounds which I just got off ebay recently) off ubid. For it's 900 retail I don't think it's that great a deal, but for what I paid for it, a hard hitting sub with a para. equalizer its well worth it. Especially considering its nice maple veneer finish with silver/gray grille looks better than any other sub in it's class.

Ronin is an awesome movie, I will be screening that tomorrow evening, maybe take some readings, but what really matters is the goosebumps you get, and you can't measure those (practically, anyways)

P.S. anyone know why harman put infinity products for sale on the Ubid market? Interesting business strategy.

Dr. Spec · August 2003

Well Russ, in keeping with the fun spirit of the PWC contest, you gave it the college try. As my grandfather used to tell me, you can't squeeze blood from a turnip.

I'm going to start calling you "Room Gain Ron". Holy smokes, 118 dB! I guess there is a bit of low passed bass the Ring Drop from the surround channels (probably the mains), since you gained 2 dB at the same Master Volume setting with all channels driven and the speaks set to small.

HBomb, surely you can't swamp the meter at 10 feet on the 120 dB scale?

Cer, yes you can't measure goose bumps or how far your pants waffle. I'm sure the IL120 will pound out some bone crushing bass on that RPG hit. The SVS site has a waterfall chart and nearly all of it is centered around 40-50 Hz. Ronin is a pretty cool movie.

Ron-P · August 2003

Actually Doc, I bumped up the volume every so slightly, pushing the limits of the amp and Tempest. At the same volume, I was hitting 116db with all channels driven. I just gave her a little more juice the second time around.

Peace Out~:D

BeginnersLuck · August 2003

Hey Ron-P,
What level is the volume set at now? And what amp are you using to power that driver?

goingganzo · August 2003

acording to win isd when i moddled my sub i can hit 120db+ at 16hz i will have to get the db meter out tomarrow.

HBombToo · August 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec

HBomb, surely you can't swamp the meter at 10 feet on the 120 dB scale?

nooooo.... I was just funnen:D

HBomb

Ron-P · August 2003

Hey Ron-P,
What level is the volume set at now? And what amp are you using to power that driver?

The volume of the subs amp? I am using a 250w plate amp.

Peace Out~:D

BeginnersLuck · August 2003

Yeah, the volume of the subs amp...I'm just curious if I could get better performance out of the 214L will a more powerful amp? I know it can play low, but can it play lower with more power?

Anyone?

Ron-P · August 2003

The volume knob is turned up to about the 1/3 mark. What amp are you using? Is your sub ported?

Peace Out~:D

BeginnersLuck · August 2003

Yeah, the 214L is vented with two 3 inch flares...I'm using the PE 250 Watt Amp and the volume knob is at 1 o'clock...the AVR sub trim is -5db...

The Tempest driver can handle alot more power than what I'm throwing at it, so I was just curious if it would make a difference?

I used to have a 540 Watt Bash Amp that I bought from accoustic-visions but it crapped out on me about 4 months ago...

-BL

Dr. Spec · August 2003

See my other post in the 25-31PC+ thread.

You really shouldn't try to force the Tempest with 500 watts unless you add another 3" flared port. You will run into some power compression and possibly some minor port noise if you shoot for another 3 dB of output without increasing port area by another 50%.

Your sub is very efficient and perfect with 250W and two 3" flared ports. It can play very loud like that and you may never miss/need another 3 dB of output. Hell, Ron can hit a clean 120+ dB in his small Driftwood; he simply doesn't need more sub. That is the case with many Tempest owners, as the two 3" flared port kit is very popular and probably does the trick in 95% of all intended applications.

Doc

Ceruleance · August 2003

Just watched some of Ronin. Wasn't really interested in seeing the whole thing, but the action was nice. That first RPG shot I found kinda untamed and not that great (maybe the room gain in my room, but Im leaning towards no..) The second RPG (from the sunroof of the car to the escort car) was dead on and sounded great, except the mixing of the material to a very loud Right Front channel effect as the car slides by I found distracting. My favorite explosion is later, though, when he tosses the fake case gregor hands him under the car, definitely some pants waffling on that one, and in the rest of them too.

Ronin is recommended if you havent seen it already, some decent action, a marginal plot, and one of the better car chases in recent history

goingganzo · August 2003

i was testing today i cant go very far past 110 db but i am in the basement. and i put the sub in the center of the wall. i have no room gane where i mesure. but above the sub 10 feet on the tairs i get 115 at the same volume lol. but 10 feet away and 15 feet i get the same mesurement. ron did you see any changes going foom the beed room theater to the gurage? also i do not have a closed room. aka my theater is about 2000cubic feet and ope to the rest of the basement with is 6000 cubic feet.

Airplay355 · August 2003

i got the marantz today, i am going to rent lotr soon and see if i can hear the ring drop this time....because i never even knew there was bass there lol

goingganzo · August 2003

i guess my design was wrong it showed at 500 wats i would not exede x max till i got below tuneing. or maybe the samson puts out more than 500 wats rms

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