Join The PWC

Dr. Spec

In case you haven't caught it in the 214 L Tempest thread, this is an offer to join the exclusive, the coveted, the elite - Pants Waffling Club.

In order to become a member your sub must pass the following test: It must generate a clean (no bottoming or audible distress) 110 dB peak on the LOTR Ring Drop at a distance of 10 feet or greater, as measured with the RS SPL meter set to C-Weighted Fast.

No C-Weighted correction factors will be allowed, WYSIWYG on the meter. However, for the sake of discussion, the CF for this particular passage is about 5 dB, so the actual SPL would be about 115 if your meter reads 110.

Entry into the PWC is strictly voluntary, and I as the Charter Member take no responsibility for busted subs (although it would be entertaining reading, especially if it were Sid's M&K).

Signed,

Dr. Spec - PWC Charter Member

Airplay355

ne paticular frequency we gotta be at? im not sure how to measure all that stuff so sorry if the frequency is implied and i missed it...i may just have to get a RS meter to join the club

ken brydson

Can I be an honorary member if I blow up my little POS Technics sub trying??:D

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by Airplay355
ne paticular frequency we gotta be at? im not sure how to measure all that stuff so sorry if the frequency is implied and i missed it...i may just have to get a RS meter to join the club

No, it's the Ring Drop scene in LOTR - frequency is implied. FWIW, it's centered around 22-23 Hz.

Can I be an honorary member if I blow up my little POS Technics sub trying??

Nope, but we can laugh reading about it.

Doc

BeginnersLuck

With the RS meter I hit 111db with no signs of strain at reference -3. The passage after when he explodes hit 116db on RS meter, then I quickly turned it down because that's just too damn loud...heh. But I must admit, I am only sitting 8 feet away from the sub, but it is not in a corner.

Hopefully I can still qualify...I think there is still juice left under the hood to run it at reference and still hit 110db at over 10 feet away, but with my small room sub placement is limited, i could make it work but It's gonna take some furnature re-arranging...so hopefully it's good enough.

So, does this mean I'm in?

Later,
-BL

VR3

Originally posted by Dr. Spec
Entry into the PWC is strictly voluntary, and I as the Charter Member take no responsibility for busted subs (although it would be entertaining reading, especially if it were Sid's M&K).

Eff you....

Dr. Spec

Originally posted by BeginnersLuck
With the RS meter I hit 111db with no signs of strain at reference -3. The passage after when he explodes hit 116db on RS meter, then I quickly turned it down because that's just too damn loud...heh. But I must admit, I am only sitting 8 feet away from the sub, but it is not in a corner.

Hopefully I can still qualify...I think there is still juice left under the hood to run it at reference and still hit 110db at over 10 feet away, but with my small room sub placement is limited, i could make it work but It's gonna take some furnature re-arranging...so hopefully it's good enough.

So, does this mean I'm in?

Later,
-BL

Since your post started the PWC discussion again, 111 at 8 feet is close enough. You are officially in the PWC.

Sid, just busing your balls - feel the love and crank the volume.

Doc

VR3

Doc will do....

As soon as I get a SPL meter (Gotta borrow dad's). Although the thing about the M&K forward woof is that it rolls off around 30-25hz......so I'll try it tonight and see how well it picks up and see if it is worth it......

Ceruleance

Im not at home with my HT rig, but before I even try, I think there should be some stipulation about accuracy if you are going to be in the PWC. The parametric equalizers on my subs are defeating the room gain so I don't have max output, but I bet my frequency response curve is the desert road to most people's roller coasters. I'll take some readings with RABOS on and off and report back this weekend.

VR3

I just played it - the forward woofer just ignored it........oooo well, the room was bouncin though.....

Airplay355

i think ill have to wait for an SVS before i can officially join the PWC...unless you guys think my rti150's can do it but i doubt it, whatcha think?

VR3

Dont they roll off at like 26hz? The bass track Doc is referring to hits 23hz or so? No.........not really. Especially not with that Aiwa.......

Ceruleance

they roll off, not drop off, it's a gradual thing. He may be ableto do it with the right placement, if someone let him borrow their amps, and he had a small room.

I have a question though, when polk quotes overall frequency
response what is their significance factor? .707 (root 2) x max.?

Doc, what's the peak SPL coming off those 800's during other scenes when you are using the master volume level that you use when you hit reference levels for bass? You don't really listen at that volume do you? just measure peaks for the scene and crank it down? When you sit down to watch a flick just for fun what does your sub hit in the peaks?

Loud & Clear

i think ill have to wait for an SVS before i can officially join the PWC...unless you guys think my rti150's can do it but i doubt it, whatcha think?

This raises an interesting point/dilemma: If I were to purchase a speaker system like the RTi150s, it would be with the understanding that they would be my mains AND sub ... period; I wouldn't then look into purchasing a separate sub to cover roughly 10Hz! That sounds like Sid's M&K setup ;>}

I'm guessing the RTi150s are an excellent system, capable of satisfying most all music/movie type listeners (providing you've got 200/250+ per side, and I bet that kicks ****), but I don't understand the concept of getting such a system and then dropping a sub right next to them. Just some thoughts, could be wrong.

VR3

Unless your pumping major power the RTi150 IMO, it is a better choice to get the RTi70 and a seperate subwoofer. It will have better mids and much better bass. IMO again.

Ceruleance

I haven't demo'ed either the 150's or the 70's extensively enough to offer my opinion, but rest assured if I ever ran my M-500t's bridged (700w / ch into 8) or biamped (500w/ch into 8) those 150's would put out some ridiculous SPL's. Did I tell you guys I got another 500? Haha i'm insane and I love it.

Airplay355

IMO why not have an svs and rti150s? and trey, i can always use my dads luxman thats sounds pretty good with the rti150s now, i think they just needed some brake in time. and im ordering the marantz tomorrow, i cant wait to see how that sounds...ill have to rent LOTR and "buy" a RS meter later only to return it when im done lol its an interesting dilema, do i spend the $700...when i get it...on an SVS pci 20-39? or do i spend it on expensive amps to give the rti150s clean strong power...i know what you mean with the rti150s being a sub but they dont really cut it as a sub for me, and im talking about having them hooked up to the luxman not the aiwa. maybe with 300 watts on each one they will but 3 6" midrange drivers is not going to give u the same sound as 1 12" sub woofer, figureing out what i will do will tak alot of deciding, and the sub will be the last speaker i buy in my HT so no worries there. i will be sure to check with you guys before i spend $700 though so you will hear alot about that lol

VR3

I say eff SVS - get the effin amp - amps.......

Ceruleance

6 6.5" drivers is approx. 200 sq. inches of surface area, one 12" has ~ 115 sq.inches.

Of course we aren't talking enclosure volume, driver excursion, tuning, porting etc. etc., but the point is 6.5's can do more than you may think.

VR3

As I said above.........forget the sub, get the amps. But I prefer a external sub over internal.....IMO of course

goingganzo

too easy i can turn off 1 of my subs and still be in the club. also i am slab on grade concrete

Dr. Spec

The parametric equalizers on my subs are defeating the room gain so I don't have max output, but I bet my frequency response curve is the desert road to most people's roller coasters.

Agreed - I have about 5-6 dB of room gain at 22 Hz; that certainly helps. I'd shut off the RABOS for sure and let room gain give you a helping hand. I never really felt room gain was a bad thing for music since it occurs so low in my system that there is virtually no effect in the >30 Hz region. And it rules for HT so I just let the room do its thing.

I just played it - the forward woofer just ignored it.

There's still hope for the future. In a small room like yours, room gain will be akin to a car subwoofer, and an SVS PCi will have no trouble hitting over 110 on that passage in your room.

I have a question though, when polk quotes overall frequency

Overall FR is -10 dB for Polk.

Of course we aren't talking enclosure volume, driver excursion, tuning, porting etc. etc., but the point is 6.5's can do more than you may think.

I agree. The 150's are a waste run on small. They need as much power as you would be sending a large dedicated subwoofer - around 250-300 watts per side. They 150's dig pretty deep and can probably move a decent amount of air. You can get a nice powerful used amp cheaper than you can get a new subwoofer. I'm with the majority here - power up those 150's with some serious amperage and cut loose.

too easy i can turn off 1 of my subs and still be in the club. also i am slab on grade concrete

Well, you were a shoe in from the start - a no brainer. The AV15 is a monstrously powerful woofer and you've got duals. Your sub would crush even mine in an SPL drag.

Doc

Dr. Spec

Doc, what's the peak SPL coming off those 800's during other scenes when you are using the master volume level that you use when you hit reference levels for bass? You don't really listen at that volume do you? just measure peaks for the scene and crank it down? When you sit down to watch a flick just for fun what does your sub hit in the peaks?

Almost missed this question. Clearly, bass moves more air and hence moves the meter needle more than anything else.

Frequencies that might seem very loud to our ears are actually not that loud from a SPL standpoint. The human ear is less sensitive to bass frequencies by far as compared to the midrange stuff. So we can tolerate loud bass better than anything else without discomfort.

With that said, my playback volume for HT is what I would characterize as "comfortably loud". I run the sub a few dB hot, but it is not grossly overcalibrated and still blends well with the surround channels, of course. Vocals probably run in the high 70's and low 80's, and most sound effects are probably in the mid 80's to low 90's. A burst of sustained gunfire (like the machine gun killing in the DTS version of Road To Perdition), might register in the mid to upper 90's, but seems very loud since it is smack in the 2000-4000 Hz range. Since the LFE channel is boosted 10 dB by the DSP, bass PEAKS register about 105-110 dB.

I have to play LOTR-EE DTS at -10 to hit 115 dB on the meter (120 actual) on the ring drop, and the surround channels are VERY loud at that volume - much too loud for my tastes. I would normally play LOTR-EE DTS at maybe -15 and it would be enjoyably loud but not uncomfortably loud.

Since the sub clearly works the hardest in the air moving department, having one that is understressed for the application results in less cone excursion which tranlates into much lower THD and IMD, better accuracy, and an effortless quality to the bass. The PB2+ is not working too hard to generate 105-110 dB bass peaks in my room, and it shows in the outstanding SQ of the bass.

Doc

BeginnersLuck

Hey Doc-

You mentioned that the LFE is boosted 10 db by your DSP. Is that a common practice amoung receivers or is it just a particular case for your receiver and DSP? I assume you are talking about the DSP in your receiver, no? I don't remember ever seeing something like that before. Please clarify...

Thanks,
-BL

HBombToo

Does blowing 2 (20-39 CS+) make me an honorary member:D

:cool:

HBomb

goingganzo

bass is a adictive thing at least to me. when i first got into music the rp thing was just starting up and i was digging it. but to just be a 1 not boomer is not good you need a flat or prety flat responce and to be able to dig deep. in my car i no brainer went sealed it is all about the music. but ht ported to the max and low to achive the awsome spical efects. if i ever get a projector i just might get 2 more av15 and have a wall of bass behing the screen. but that may caues the screen to shake and ripple.

but doc my sub is the size of a mini lol at least it looksed like that when bulding and yours is alot smaller

ken brydson

Originally posted by goingganzo
[
but doc my sub is the size of a mini lol at least it looksed like that when bulding and yours is alot smaller [/B]

Sounds like a case of "Sub Envy".

BeginnersLuck

Hey Doc-

You mentioned that the LFE is boosted 10 db by your DSP. Is that a common practice amoung receivers or is it just a particular case for your receiver and DSP? I assume you are talking about the DSP in your receiver, no? I don't remember ever seeing something like that before. Please clarify...

Thanks,
-BL

Dr. Spec

BL:

All DSPs boost the LFE channel 10 dB for any DD or DTS soundtrack.

Henry:

Of course you are automatically a member with dual 20-39 CS+, especially because you blew them!

Ken:

Gonzo's sub really IS the size of a mini-van. But saying either of us has a case of sub envy is like saying his 15" driver is bigger than my 12" driver - both are more than enough to satisfy.

burdette

I'm in the PWC. My single AV12 in the EBS alignment (144L, 250w) easily handles the ring-drop frequencies, and this sub in my particular room hits the SPL. I think I'll be all right in most rooms - the HT room is 12'x16' but is open in the rear to another room that is about 10'x12'.

Regarding buying large speakers with a built-in sub, like the 150, vs. buying a smaller speaker and a separate sub... I'd focus on convenience and flexibility. Larger mains with built-in subs are not going to give you the placement flexibility of smaller mains and the separate sub... if the ideal main placement happens to be **** sub placement, you're stuck. Also, you can't replace either the mains or the sub without replacing both... you can't upgrade just one.

HBombToo

Since we are talking about the ring drop... I do have an issue with 1 of the subs clacking during it. Burdette witnessed this first hand and I had forgot all about it.

The scenario is as follows:

After my subs blew the first time I purchased a dual VU meter,
http://www.bswonline.com/prod_item.asp?item=RUSM16

which is connected to the output of the sub sonic filter. I know that at 0 dBu I am just shy of the absolute max power of the Samson amp. I have the dual meter set to look at average and peak power from each of the output of the VU meter.

Now as we were watching and the clacking began in the left sub I looked down and noticed the Sampson was not clipping but the VU meters went equally into the red and were probably right around 9-12 dbu. For average and peak power to be equivalent under this condition I have to be clipping either in my h/k 520 or the subsonic filter itself. I ran the voltage curves but never the current curves for either unit and am beginning to think that the h/k is just a POS for LFE. I have the h/k set to -5 now but am seriously considering backing it down all the way to -10 and see what happens.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. My big question is why would 1 sub clack but not the other?

Burdette, if I missed something please chime in.

HBomb