Join The PWC

Ceruleance · July 2003

burdette,
In general I agree with you about the flexibility of three speakers as opposed to two, but at this point, since airplay already owns the 150's, I think the most logical step is for him to step up to better amps, rather than drop the cash for a sub.

Dr. Spec · July 2003

Henry, since you don't have an auto on circuit to worry about, you could indeed back the h/k down even further.

The general rule on LFE pre-outs: Too high and it will distort, too low and it will have a compromised S/N ratio.

If one sub clacks and the other doesn't, that is not the h/k's fault though. It only has one LFE output. Somewhere down the line, you are splitting the LFE signal and are somehow sending more power to the left sub than the right. This could be in the Samson S1000, or in the SVS01 Bass Interface Box.

I assume this bottoming is with the SS filter set to 20 Hz?
Doc

RuSsMaN · July 2003

...or a problem with resistance / capacitance / interference on his cables?

Just throwing that out....

VR3 · July 2003

hmmm.........

RTi70 -- 500-600 bucks
CSi40 - 300 bucks
RTi38 - 300 bucks
MAX** Amount === 1200

RTi150 - 1,500.......

NOW........How did that work out?

Ceruleance · July 2003

you can get the 150's for much less than 1500

burdette · July 2003

Originally posted by Ceruleance
since airplay already owns the 150's

Read that... forgot it before I replied. Of course you're right, that makes it a very different situation.

Maybe a trade plus cash?

Yes, I heard H's left sub clacking... and that is the right word... I don't think it sounded like distress as much as a sound effect. Of course it wasn't a sound effect.. it is a problem of some sort... but the sound itself didn't cause me to think "oh ****!"

VR3 · July 2003

Originally posted by Ceruleance
you can get the 150's for much less than 1500

That is true but Airplay is doing the CC upgrade plan, so anything he gets will be retail...

HBombToo · July 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec

I assume this bottoming is with the SS filter set to 20 Hz?
Doc

Yes Doc, 20 Hz and I'll bet the 101 before the Sampson is shot.

Russ
I will re-measure impedance and I'll definetly report back. Originally I measured both at 3.1 Ohms. I'll look later for my humble review

Twin:D

Airplay355 · July 2003

in my room i have my mains set in what i would think is a very ideal place for a sub...and sid my mains were not 1500 so dont use MSRP for the rti150s and then internet prices for the other speakers. so get over that i have rti150's and did not go with ur proposed setup of rti70s. its my cash, my speakers, and it effects you in absolutely no way, and will never effect you so could ya stop with all the you shoulda done this? that'd be great, thanks

i have pictures but unfortunately i need to get my digital cameras USB cord back before i can send them to anyone.

i have a pretty big entertainment center, it consists of two large tall units and a smaller table like thing for a TV and components in the middle, there are also two shelves going from the two larger units to accomidate a center channel.

the dimensions are L7'xW9'xD2' theres probably about two inches of space behind the units for cables and asorted other crap. the wall this is on is 15' long.

the rti150s are about 15" away from the wall and toed in at a the listening position. im not doing the math but anyone who wants to find out the angles here ya go lol the triangle would be 14" 16" and 7 1/2" (roughly)

anyway the rti150s are a pretty deep speaker, so having the back of the speaker 15" away from the wall puts the tweeters about 2' away from the wall. also the entertinment center makes my left main a nice little box that is 24" deep and 20" across...i have the main in there but because of the depth of the rti150 the tweeters are not stuck in a corner or parallel with a wall so im pretty sure high frequencies arent effected by the placement.

this is really hard to explain and i think you guys will agree that for my room, i have pretty nice placement, atleast for the room im in. as soon as i get my cable back ill send you guys the pics of everything.

I have yet to watch LOTR with the rti150s so i am really excited to see how they will sound, and i ant wait to see how they sound with my new receiver. the rti100's seemed to ignore most of the information from the ring drop, atleast hooked up to my **** aiwa so i dont think thats really fair for them.

BTW i ordered the Marantz receiver today...i cant wait

not too hi jack a thread or anything but since i seem to be in the spotlight, does anyone know how to get a UPS tracking number from accessories4less?

VR3 · July 2003

*email*

Airplay -- My number *rant* there wasnt to you. It was my saying this - for the same price......you could have made a way better complete system and instead of amps bought a subwoofer and your receiver. See what I am getting at?

In return of buying the entire system you could have returned your CS245i and upgraded it also. Then sold the yammers on EBay along with the Aiwa as a package deal.

Airplay355 · July 2003

i know what you are saying, you've said it before, you'll say it again, but it really means nothing now because i already have the speakers *I* want and even if *I* wanted to i couldnt change them without losing money on my part. i appreciate the suggestions but since i have already made a choice? they arent suggestions, they are harrassing and a bit annoying. maybe if you had talked to me about it when i was just building my system i could have been persuaded to go the route you would prefer but like i said i already made my choice and i am quie happy with it, i prefer the rti150's to the rti70 even if in theory or actuality they are better, they're my ears dont try to understand them. i sure as hell couldnt get into the PWC with the rti70s lol

so anyway thanks for the suggestions, but no thanks lol u can bother me all you want when i decide to get amps, and im sure the answer will be adcom but who cares that will be an interesting convo lol so lets all just be friends

as for the yammers and the aiwa, i bet they will get about $50 on ebay, i mean c'mon a 3-way speakers that only goes to 90 hz even with an 8 inch woofer??? is bose even that bad? lol i think id have to pay someone to buy them lol and the aiwa is like a sony (not sony es) receiver that they put in those HTs in a box, except probably alittle worse and with alot less surround modes lol.

but since this is a PWC thread lets forget bout everythin else for now...so who thinks i can make it into the PWC with the marantz and the rti150's? my room is 15x12x8. anyone? anyone?

*edit* the cs245i is over a year old so sadly i couldnt have upgraded it

sry missed that part before. i think atleast one thing we can agree on is the csi40 is one nice freakin speaker

*edit* master ryan, more to say have you? lol just to clarify things the rti150's will be my sub for now, getting an SVS would be for later on when i have a bigger room to fill and would need it...an svs in my room now would, to say the least, break things. plus i think i like the idea of amps for the rti150s but i want to try to complete the speaker part of my HT first, like buy a csi40 and fxi30s.

BeginnersLuck · July 2003

Well, I finished re-arranging my room this evening and made some major improvements to the sub placement. I can not hit 113 db during the ring drop at reference -10 and my sub is 10 feet away... I feel much better now, the added benefits of room gain save the day again. At first I thought I was going to have to build a different sub after the first round of measurements. Placement is everything I guess. I took me about 3 hours to arrange the room but it was worth it!

Signed:
-Gary (Official PWC Member)

HBombToo · July 2003

Last night I backed the h/k down to -10 on lfe and listen to the ring drop about 20 times all the while cranking up the gain on the subsonic filter. Never did I hear the clacking again and the glasses in my china closet were ratting like you would not believe. The walls and windows were also thumping like the house was being picked up by a tornado then the wife came into the room and gave me the, "Sherry Glare"... not a good thing:( so play time was OVER!

Looks to me the h/k was swamping the 101. Now back to the drawing board and recalibrating the whole thing.

HBomb

Dr. Spec · July 2003

Airplay:

I think you are doing just fine with your system. You made the decision to buy the 150s, and its a fine speaker, and you should certainly use them in a manner which best exploits their capabilities.

Do I think you can make the PWC with the Marantz? I think the speakers are possibly capable of it, but I think the Marantz amp might have too little power. At 100 watts, you are probably a good 5-6 dB down from the maximum bass output the 150's are capable of. You are certainly welcome to try, but don't bust the speaks or the new AVR trying to get into the PWC - hell it's all in fun.

BL:

I knew the Tempest had a bit more gas in the tank with the right placement. You are comfortably above the PWC cutoff at -10 RL, nice. Pretty impressive scene on the right sub. My PC+ could do about 112-113 on that scene. The PB2+ is coasting at 115. I'd say the PB2+ has a solid 118-119 in the tank (that's 125 actual) on the ring drop.

Henry:

Edit: Your above post beat me to the punch, but here's what I had written anyway:

You might be sending the left a bit more power than the right. Maybe you can run a low level sine wave through the system (burn a CD, DVD player, h/k, SVS01, Samson, 20-39CS+), and measure the voltage/current at each speaker lead. It should be identical on a sine wave and easy to read also. I think the only place you alter gain on each channel is the SVS01, so use that box to balance both channels.

Regardless, you are playing the system loud enough to bottom one woofer, and I'm sure the other one isn't too far behind in terms of excursion. The Samson can deliver enough power to smoke a dB-12 if you are not careful; I think it can deliver about 700 peak watts before the clipping lights start to flash; remember, it is a touring styule amp and is designed to run with the clipping light flashing occasionally. I hate to say it, but with your size room (7,000 ft3) and listening tastes, it is possible that you are simply exceeding what a pair of Plus subs can safely deliver.

Doc

HBombToo · July 2003

Doc, there is not a doubt in my mind that you are correct about the room and initially me playing the subs too loud. I have been ever so carefull with the new subs. This is the reason I purchased the VU meter so I knew exactly what was going on.

In light of my finding last night I would like to share where my head is... I did open the SV101 and examined the circuit board and found the Op Amps are the Burr Brown type so I have no worry regarding quality. I can't recall the model number at this time because it was a few months ago but I did record it in my notes at home. That said, I intend on researching the input saturation of the BB op amp so that I have an even better feal for what is going on. The reason I'm taking it to this next level is because when the clacking occurred the VU peak and average were equal telling me that the network was at or near a dc state. Since there is only 1 gain control for both paths of the 101 that says to me that potentially resistor values are slighlty different due to their tolerances and cause 1 of the paths to clip before the other. Secondly I am thinking that on a DD track the h/k's lfe is excessively hot for the input of the 101 which is the root cause of the problem. I would need a DD recorded cd to do this test because my Cal Labs will not recognize anything outside of Redbook or DVD audio streams. I ran your cd with an external mp3 player and the analog output of it coupled to the input of the h/k analog which eliminates the DD processor in the h/k. In effect no gain for LFE.

That said, I do have a large room which is the reason I have found this issue. This issue is not a problem with the SVS product at all but has been rooted out due to the levels that I have been playing to overcome the size of the room. It is interesting where all this has led and a lot more learning to come.

Thanks for your help and keep it comeing.
Henry

Dr. Spec · July 2003

I didn't realize you only had one gain control for both sides - my bad. I was thinking of the phase, which can alter each side separately.

I have a home made but professionally mastered DD disc at home which has a 40 Hz sine wave for each of the five surround channels, and also the LFE channel. I think each channel runs around 5-6 seconds.

It has two sets of tones. Set #1 has the LFE channel mastered 10 dB lower than the other 5 channels, and it should all measure the same at the SPL meter or with a volt meter on the speaker cable, since your h/k should boost the LFE channel 10 dB automatically.

Set #2 has all six channels mastered at the same level. Upon playback, the LFE channel should play 10 dB higher than the other five channels.

My 3803 nails this test +/- 0.5 dB on playback. I can either send you a copy, or you can download it and burn your own. Which do you prefer? I'll dig up the link over at HTF if you prefer to download.

Doc

Grimster74 · July 2003

Damum, not sure if I can wait another 4 weeks before I get to join the club. Won't be soon enough. I've listened to everyone talking about this ring drop and I can't wait to hear it for myself. All I get know with the ring drop is a thud. Can't wait till that PB2-Plus gets here.

HBombToo · July 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec

My 3803 nails this test +/- 0.5 dB on playback. I can either send you a copy, or you can download it and burn your own. Which do you prefer? I'll dig up the link over at HTF if you prefer to download.

Doc

Let me try the link first. My coworker has a recording studio so we'll give that a wack first. My Cal Labs will not play cd-r or any variant but he does have a dvd player that I can borrow.

Thanks
HBomb

Dr. Spec · July 2003

This thread is actually old, but Vince bumped it recently and I took full advantage.

FWIW, My posts are over on page 2 of the thread. I had some issues about BM with my Avia disc and the 3803 and Vince's test tones really laid it all to rest. Bottom line, there is a flaw in the Avia disc at one point and it has been confirmed by a bunch of people, now including me. Nice to know the BM circuit in my 3803 is working perfectly. I called and emailed Avia on this issue and they were silent; to me that means guilty as charged.

The downloads are near the bottom of page 1 of this thread. I encourage ALL bass heads to burn a copy of these professionally mastered downloads. They are EXCELLENT to determine if your BM circuit is working properly, espcially if you set all your speaks to small and run a sub.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64024&perpage=30&display=&pagenumber=1

Doc

Dr. Spec · July 2003

Grim:

While the ring drop does indeed start out as a thud (albeit a pretty darn powerful thud), the subsequent room decay is what separates the men from the boys. If you don't feel a large whooosh of air about 1/4 second after the ring hits the ground, your sub ain't cuttin' it. The PB2+ will waffle your pants for sure.

Doc

Ron-P · July 2003

In order to become a member your sub must pass the following test: It must generate a clean (no bottoming or audible distress) 110 dB peak on the LOTR Ring Drop at a distance of 10 feet or greater, as measured with the RS SPL meter set to C-Weighted Fast.

This should not be a problem for my 177L Tempest, but, I'll have to find out for sure.

Which ring drop scene, there are several in the movie? The one in which Bilbo drops the ring in his house? Also, are we talking dd or dts, EE or theaterical?

Peace Out~:D

Dr. Spec · July 2003

Originally posted by Ron-P
This should not be a problem for my 177L Tempest, but, I'll have to find out for sure. Which ring drop scene, there are several in the movie? The one in which Bilbo drops the ring in his house? Also, are we talking dd or dts, EE or theaterical? Peace Out~:D

First ring drop when Sauron gets his hand chopped off in battle and the ring and finger hits the ground.

The version is up to you; not all members are DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete capable. Yes, the DD theatrical version is hottest, but there are no master volume setting restrictions, just whether or not the sub can do it. I'm sure your Temepst can deliver the goods in the small Driftwood Theater.

And just so everyone knows for sure, the PWC is just tongue-in-cheek fun; nothing to get your **** in a wringer over. Just a fun bag thread.

Doc

Ceruleance · July 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec

And just so everyone knows for sure, the PWC is just tongue-in-cheek fun; nothing to get your **** in a wringer over. Just a fun bag thread.

Doc

Doc you are ruining the exclusivity and mystique of the club!:D

Ron-P · July 2003

Damn and here I was just going to ring my ****.

I've played that scene may times and the bass is outstanding, but what follows, the implosion of Sauron, is gut vibration to the extreme.

Peace Out~:D

Airplay355 · July 2003

all this tiem i thought the implosion was what i was supposed to be listening to? when the ring hits the ground there is heavy bass? i heard some bass there but decided since the implosion seemed to be a deeper and stronger wave of bass that was what you guys were referring to? someone explain this to me

Dr. Spec · July 2003

Originally posted by Airplay355
all this tiem i thought the implosion was what i was supposed to be listening to? when the ring hits the ground there is heavy bass? i heard some bass there but decided since the implosion seemed to be a deeper and stronger wave of bass that was what you guys were referring to? someone explain this to me

The scene where the ring hits the ground is the PWC qualifier. The reason most people only hear a dull soft thud is because it is so deep most subs pretty much ignore it. It is a spectacular passage on a good sub.

The Sauron reverse sweep implosion is actually not very deep at all - it hits about 45-50 Hz at the lowest point, but IS quite loud.

I've seen waterfall charts for this stuff over at HTF. Some guy named MingL charts them all. It's pretty cool. That's how I know how deep the passages are.

At any given volume setting, I get equal SPL peaks on the ring drop and the reverse sweep implosion.

Doc

Airplay355 · July 2003

i've only watched the movie on my rti100s with the aiwa receiver...maybe thats why i thought the implosion was deep...even that seemed to be pretty quiet...never did hear bass at the ring drop lol, i guess i wouldnt be able to quality for the PWC with the rti100s lol

Dr. Spec · July 2003

Just double checked the waterfall chart. Red is loud, and pink is VERY loud.

The ring drop is centered at 25 Hz and occurs just before the 4:00 minute mark. It looks like a small pink blob.

The reverse sweep occurs about 20 seconds later and looks like a pink comet, since it lasts longer than the ring drop. It terminates at 55 Hz, so it is not deep at all, but yes quite loud.

Here is the hotlink:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144887&highlight=waterfall

Doc

Ron-P · July 2003

Very interesting Doc. For the feel of that reverse sweep, one would think it drops much lower than 55Hz.

I'll have to check the ring drop scene tonight.

Peace Out~:D

Airplay355 · July 2003

im feeling very very stupid...stupid stupid stupid...all this time i was thinking that the implosion was the main event in the whole ring drop thing...and i thought that was some deeeeeeeeeeeeep bass...stupid stupid stupid

Join The PWC

Comments