Further Thoughts On ABX Testing Of Stereophonic Audio Systems

mrbigbluelight

You'll never see Fred Ziffel with a stopwatch out at Churchill Downs timing Arnold to see what his 1 1/4 mile time is. He could, but there wouldn't necessarily be a lot of sense in it except, perhaps, for Fred to be able to say, "Wow ! That's one fast pig !".

But Arnold would still be a pig; a fast pig but still .....

Which is NOT to imply that Belden cables are pigs. Not meaning to imply that at all.

But most sites/magazines/blogs test high-end gear, and that's understandable. It'd be rather unreasonable to expect them to roll out the expensive test gear for equipment that doesn't really merit it.

Here's a chance, though, that you don't often come across.
It would be kind of interesting to compare/contrast results for some entry-level cables.
The results of which would be ....... ?
Don't know; could venture a guess, but that's what would be cool.
MAYBE after being tempered in a Cable Cooker, the measured results might show, "Holy cow, they test out exactly the same as the best MIT's !!".

Wouldn't wager my money that way. Maybe the test results might just show a dramatic improvement by seasoning in a Cable Cooker. More reasonable expectation, but again ..... don't know.

But, in any event, DK's offer appears above board, measurable, and actually quite generous. It's not my time and effort that's being offered, so the only thing I can offer is my opinion that I think it is quite generous.

In the meantime, everybody enjoy your Holidays, and ENJOY YOUR TUNES !

hearingimpared

Ray, you are speaking to empty space and offers. I agree with Mike above!!!

BTW Rick

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

You'll never see Fred Ziffel with a stopwatch out at Churchill Downs timing Arnold to see what his 1 1/4 mile time is. He could, but there wouldn't necessarily be a lot of sense in it except, perhaps, for Fred to be able to say, "Wow ! That's one fast pig !".

But Arnold would still be a pig; a fast pig but still .....

EFFFIN WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!!!

inspiredsports

David Manley, in "The Vacuum Tube Logic Book", writes one of my favorite quotations, and in my opinion it's what Raife is exploring:

". . . In the hi-fi world there are many examples that defy measurement; bi-wiring is one, interconnect cables another, the apparent loudness of tubes yet another. One of the most important aural phenomena we design and listen for is that of imaging. No measurement-unit exists to quantify this or spatial specificity/location." (I personally feel DK is exploring the development of this missing measurement-unit)

Manley goes on to share his thoughts about ABX testing, stating:

" . . . No doubt this (ABX) system has great merit. However, we believe it is at its best in what one could honestly call mass-produced, average price-level, consumer-oriented products."

He (Manley) completes the thought with:

"We feel that true High End audio components fall into a category where adjudication by experts should be the ruling, as it is in many forms of endeavour; painting, sculpture, ballet, wine-tasting, gourmet cooking, book reviews, etc."

This seems to synch with jinko's "Average Joe" statements which are probably not in synch what most in this group are seeking, and probably exposes why jink (and others) seem(s) to be so unhappy here.

hearingimpared

inspiredsports wrote: »

David Manley, in "The Vacuum Tube Logic Book", writes one of my favorite quotations, and in my opinion it's what Raife is exploring:

". . . In the hi-fi world there are many examples that defy measurement; bi-wiring is one, interconnect cables another, the apparent loudness of tubes yet another. One of the most important aural phenomena we design and listen for is that of imaging. No measurement-unit exists to quantify this or spatial specificity/location." (I personally feel DK is exploring the development of this missing measurement-unit)

Manley goes on to share his thoughts about ABX testing, stating:

" . . . No doubt this (ABX) system has great merit. However, we believe it is at its best in what one could honestly call mass-produced, average price-level, consumer-oriented products."

He (Manley) completes the thought with:

"We feel that true High End audio components fall into a category where adjudication by experts should be the ruling, as it is in many forms of endeavour; painting, sculpture, ballet, wine-tasting, gourmet cooking, book reviews, etc."

This seems to synch with jinko's "Average Joe" statements which are probably not in synch what most in this group are seeking, and probably exposes why jink (and others) seem(s) to be so unhappy here.

Great informative post Greg as Manley really know his stuff!!! I believe he has tried the "if it measures good it's got to sound good" but then found that if it measures good it does not always equate to good sound.

madmax

There were a few things in that book I disagreed with, but it still sits atop my coffee table!

hearingimpared

madmax wrote: »

There were a few things in that book I disagreed with, but it still sits atop my coffee table!

Chuck you would disagree that the black coffee sitting on that coffee table isn't black!!! Hehehehe!!!!

inspiredsports

madmax wrote: »

There were a few things in that book I disagreed with, but it still sits atop my coffee table!

But I think that's one of the greatest things about audio. There are many different, yet elegant circuit pathways that can be designed to get from source to loudspeaker. Manley definitely found a few of them.

P.S.: Don't spill anything on that book while it sits on your coffee table. Have you seen the prices even a paperback version will bring these days ??!!

Flash21

irritability gave way to wonderment when the stereophonic illusion formed in front of her.

"How does it do that?" she asked.

You know, having been into music (and listening thereto) my entire life it never even occurred to me that people would not be able to even perceive stereo imaging without some practice. The implications of this are interesting...

madmax

Flash21 wrote: »

You know, having been into music (and listening thereto) my entire life it never even occurred to me that people would not be able to even perceive stereo imaging without some practice. The implications of this are interesting...

I used to work with a guy who could not perceive the difference between mono and the super wide soundstage presented by SDA's. He was obviously listening for some other aspect of the sound. He couldn't explain what he was listening for. I would have at least thought he would question why the sounds were not coming from the speakers.

concealer404

mcnarus wrote:

But almost everything is close enough. And the exceptions are mis-designed high-end crap. Major manufacturers do not make these kinds of mistakes.

I think i may have peed a little.

DarqueKnight

Flash21 wrote: »

You know, having been into music (and listening thereto) my entire life it never even occurred to me that people would not be able to even perceive stereo imaging without some practice. The implications of this are interesting...

I have found that some people do not know the purpose of two speakers instead of one. The best some people can come up with is that the two speakers have something to do with the fact that we have two ears. They are totally unaware of the concepts of stereo imaging and stereo sound staging.

Flash21

Hmmm, they must also be puzzled as to why anybody would want to use binoculars when a telescope works perfectly well...

DarqueKnight

They probably are.

When the first consumer stereophonic audio systems were introduced, there was some consumer backlash due to the thought that the extra speaker was totally unnecessary and was just a gimmick to get people to spend more money. "Why use two speakers when one works perfectly well?"

Some people swore they could hear no spatial improvement with a two speaker system...and they probably could not without proper training.

During initial research and development trials at Bell Laboratories, a three channel, three speaker system was found to be optimal, but test subjects had some aversion to buying "all those speakers" when they were accustomed to just one. Even when cost was not an issue to a consumer, the placement of three speakers in a home environment presented far more aesthetic challenges than a two speaker system. Bell Labs compromised on a two speaker system.

verb

So I stumbled on this thread when searching outside of CP for "Electrocompaniet" of all things!

As always, interesting thread @DarqueKnight !