Further Thoughts On ABX Testing Of Stereophonic Audio Systems
Comments
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ABX testing is a misleading crutch for those who do not know how to listen. Switching between samples gives you the the major difference between the two, not a summation of each. If you cannot be truthful enough to yourself due to some overwhelming bias or you cannot admit your $30K device sounds worse than something much cheaper or different then you are not up to the game anyway.
Well said!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
your weird. why are you so worried about the philosophy of club polk? perhaps you think you can actually tell folks now what to post or say...your weird. You seem to have a warped sense of importance that manifests in weirdness. Dont post here anymore. Dont state your views. Dont state your methods. Go look I said that using ABX testing for audio is moronic. That is exactly what Ray said, you do realize he and I close friends??? That we hav a shared viewpoint of audio?? Your weird. Maybe you got hit in the head as a child or ate Ajax cleaner or drank Mr. Clean....I dont know what happened to you.
Your weird.
Keep quoting me though.
RT1 -
poor little boys all in a row, testing testing away we go. The test the test we must take the test, we must........blah blah blah.
then we must run and tell and show tell and show and tell and show.
RT1 -
Explains why food loses its taste when I eat during critical listening sessions...
Bruce! What's going on, brother???
You never call, you never write...
As for the rest of it.....who cares. If you want to use ABX testing to 'prove' that your gear is as good/better than someone elses gear...hey, knock yourself out. Me, I'd rather listen to music...on the hifi. In order of importance. The minute I feel the need to submit my gear for testing in order to validate my enjoyment of it...I'm tossing the whole kit and kaboodle in the trash and find something I can enjoy.
BTW, I hear that General Tire has a rockin' system for Muzak.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
Explains why food loses its taste when I eat during critical listening sessions...
Great Cesars Ghost....the island girls finally let you go....you need a shave.
RT1 -
You know as BDT says just spitballin here but there has been alot of terrific gear at all levels and price points heard by what 150-200 different members attending the Polkfests....never heard a one of them whining about wanting to abx any of the gear...seen jaws drop, seen **** eating grins, seen speakers humped and a bunch of Polk Audio fans enjoying the music.
Lets see Matt Polk, Wes Phillips and the other reviewers at the HQ Invite, anybody want to abx...uh...NO, we can hear the music just fine, thank you very much.
RT1 -
Ya know Ted, you bring up an interesting point. Yeah, we may swap pieces of gear, speakers and cables in and out here and there, but none of that ABX crap goes on. That is not what it is about.
There's another annual audio event that I have attended where some of the new guys bring up ABX. The older guys quickly set them straight.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Again, we listen to music....on the hifi.
Plus, there is the whole crowd out there that, for whatever reason, clings on to any argument that will seem to validate that thier gear is as good as someone elses. Again, whodafuk cares? I'd give my left nugget for F1's MF KW gear. I love it. Do I feel some deep seated need to find a way to 'prove' that mine is as good? No, I don't.
IT's my money, it's my gear....I listen to what I like. You listen to what you like. We can talk about it and debate it.....but the dick measuring contest is pointless as well as flawed.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
hell,, I'm just happy to be here and still have a few tubes left to roll and some vinyl to spin.JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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I'm sure all those A/B/X tests are important to the "Gearaholics" who need to assure themselves that my gear is better than your gear! As for me I just like to listen to my music on my gear...the gear that I chose because it sounded great to me. You have to wonder if those A/B/X guys actually just listen to music without ever questioning what's making the music????"2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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I agree with DK about training yourself to listen for the subtleties of music and the stereophonic effect. Many times I had my wife and children sit in the sweet spot, sure they hear the music and it sounds good, but they're not experiencing the depth, height and width of the soundstage.
I can equate this to an optical illusion, where you stare a a picture of random patterns and a second 3 dimensional picture appears. You must train yourself to see these pictures in a picture.
Test yourself, click on the link below, see if in the top picture you see the star fighter, and in the bottom picture you see the steam engine coming out of the tunnel.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=optical+illustions&view=detail&id=63A6CF607A992166AA78FBDE1126311CB870F1EA&first=151&FORM=IDFRIR&qpvt=
Jimmy -
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The wankers over at AVS are kicking this one around:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1297732
See page 9.
For so called 'objectivists' they seem to have a closed minds for alternatives to the sacrosanct ABX altar.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
Erik Tracy wrote:The wankers over at AVS are kicking this one around:
I love these two.....diomania wrote:That is the case with most consumer audio equipments especially preamps. They are designed with standard spec in mind so that they are compatible with other consumer audio equipments for maximum sales potential.
Really? Exactly what spec is that?mcnarus wrote:But almost everything is close enough. And the exceptions are mis-designed high-end crap. Major manufacturers do not make these kinds of mistakes.
If that wasn't so sad, it'd be hilarious.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I love these two.....
Really? Exactly what spec is that?
If that wasn't so sad, it'd be hilarious.
The only reason to visit AVS:
* What firmware versions to update in your BDP player
* If a new BD release has DNR
* What color temp to set your LG LCD
* When is the next season of Dexter coming out
* Set up codes for your DVR
Audio? Pfffttt.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
. . . . the discrimination is in the unadulterated experience for the average user. I personally want equipment that will make a positive, clearly noticeable, impact for the average Joe. I just don't believe in treating the enjoyment of audio like training for a marathon . . . .
I'm confused.
I know you wrote this, but I'm not convinced you really meant it deep down. You seem to spend a lot of time (like many of us here at CP) listening to music and participating in the forum.
To me, that seems to elevate you above "average Joe" status, and perhaps place you more in the marathon runner category than that of the casual jogger.VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
DarqueKnight wrote: »The AES accepts just about anything audio-related at their conventions and, unlike IEEE conferences, the AES does not accept any responsibility for the content of AES conference (convention) papers.
The following disclaimer is appended to every AES convention paper in my possession from the late 1990's and earlier:
"This preprint has been reproduced from the author's advance manuscript, without editing, corrections or consideration by the Review Board. The AES takes no responsibility for the contents."
The AES convention papers I have read dating from the early 2000's and onward all display the following disclaimer:
"The papers at this Convention have been selected on the basis of a submitted abstract and extended precis that have been peer reviewed by at least two qualified anonymous reviewers. This convention paper has been reproduced from the author's advance manuscript, without editing, corrections, or consideration by the Review Board."
Those two statements by the AES I find particularly disappointing; in truth a major red flag for me. If AES is going to go this route, maybe they need two levels to label papers they reproduce. An initial 2 person peer review, and a FULL BOARD REVIEW.Review Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
Founder/Publisher Affordable$$Audio 2006-13.
Former Staff Member TONEAudio
2 Ch. System
Amplifiers: Parasound Halo P6 pre, Vista Audio i34, Peachtree amp500, Adcom GFP-565 GFA-535ii, 545ii, 555ii
Digital: SimAudio HAD230 DAC, iMac 20in/Amarra,
Speakers: Paradigm Performa F75, Magnepan .7, Totem Model 1's, ACI Emerald XL, Celestion Si Stands. Totem Dreamcatcher sub
Analog: Technics SL-J2 w/Pickering 3000D, SimAudio LP5.3 phono pre
Cable/Wires: Cardas, AudioArt, Shunyata Venom 3 -
Plus, there is the whole crowd out there that, for whatever reason, clings on to any argument that will seem to validate that their gear is as good as someone elses. Again, whodafuk cares?
In my other hobby, photography, there are legions of people devoted to proving that Nikon and Canon professional quality lenses are overpriced snake oil and that lower priced alternatives from Tokina, Tamron, Sigma are just as good. These legions talk ad nauseum and ad infinitum about Nikon and Canon design flaws and how to lab test equipment.
It is a national holiday for them when Nikon or Canon has a recall or some design flaw is found. See?..Nikon and Canon make you pay all that money and they have design flaws just like the much lower priced lenses.
However, if you ask these legions a question about their artistic passion in photography or to discuss their favorite image in their personal portfolio, they are ready to pack up and leave.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Those two statements by the AES I find particularly disappointing; in truth a major red flag for me. If AES is going to go this route, maybe they need two levels to label papers they reproduce. An initial 2 person peer review, and a FULL BOARD REVIEW.
AES conference (convention) papers have a limited review of the paper's abstract and summary.
AES Journal papers are fully peer-reviewed.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Your efforts are appreciated by me but how can you make the guys to understand who can't hear a difference or refuse to do anything other than arguing?
For most of us, we simply do it and listen to the music. No need to prove anything to anyone. Audio is more like a personal quest to see God.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Your efforts are appreciated by me but how can you make the guys to understand who can't hear a difference or refuse to do anything other than arguing?
I don't do this for the people who can't hear a difference or just like to argue. I do this for the people who, like me, can hear a difference and want to know the reason why.For most of us, we simply do it and listen to the music. No need to prove anything to anyone. Audio is more like a personal quest to see God.
I know what I hear, so no need to prove that to myself or anyone else. However, I think there is value in understanding why some equipment sounds better than other equipment and in there is value in how to accurately evaluate audio gear. An understanding of accurate listening practices facilitates better equipment choices and a better listening experience.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
All I have ever asked is show me a statistical meaningful result. Why do you think I offered to send out 4 terminated cables. Two with 400 plus hours and two with zero hours? I didn't stipulate the testing, I didn't stipulate the listener, nor the listener training. I only stipulated that you couldn't know which cable was which. Everything else was singularly up to YOUR preference. I can't possibly give anyone a better scenario.
I told you here that I was interested in auditioning a low noise design cable. How was this backpeddling? I was willing to take your challenge, but with better equipment. Did you see the quote from the AES Journal paper where the authors noted that the subjects had better discrimination with better equipment? You can't seem to grasp the fact that as you go up in cable quality, the noise content goes down and the ability to hear more sonic detail goes up.
However, there is some value in reviewing modest products. So please send your Belden cables to me. I will evaluate each pair on my two channel system using the evaluation methodology described in my Journal of Sensory Studies paper.
I will also take noise spectrum measurements of each cable similar to what I did here: Cable Cooker Noise Spectrum Measurements and here 1.2TL Inductor Burn In Measurements.
It will be interesting to see how my subjective listening evaluation will compare to my noise spectrum measurements.
As some cables have a tendency to revert with lack of use, please submit two pairs that were recently burned in for 400 hours and specify the date the burn in process ended. Also, if the original burned in pair have been dormant for some time, I would like to evaluate those to see if any difference in performance occurred due to the dormancy.
Therefore, I am asking for six pairs of cables:
1. Two pair recently burned in with 400 hours of use.
2. Two pair not burned in.
3. Two pair burned in for 400 hours, but have lain unused for some time.
If you don't mind, I would like to process one of the recently burned in pairs on the Cable Cooker and compare it to the pair with only 400 hours. Shortly after I complet my evaluation, I would like you to compare both of the recently burned in 400 hour pairs (one burned in on the Cable Cooker and one recently burned in by you for 400 hours) and post your evaluation here.
I have PM'ed my shipping address to you.
This should resolve your issues.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
inspiredsports wrote: »I'm confused.
I know you wrote this, but I'm not convinced you really meant it deep down. You seem to spend a lot of time (like many of us here at CP) listening to music and participating in the forum.
To me, that seems to elevate you above "average Joe" status, and perhaps place you more in the marathon runner category than that of the casual jogger.
Fair enough...
If you are a new comer here and you just want a setup that is in all reasonableness: good bang for the buck, leaves you knowing you made wise investements of both time and $$, something that when you get home for the day you can smile at and enjoy. Well I personally hope that I can provide perspective on that.
Now if you are that intermediate user looking to chase the rabbit further down the hole, well this is where I most likely have a divergent path than most here. I will absolutely attribute that to doing pro-audio. Whether that be 20K watt of amplification at medium sized venue or putting in Crown D and PS series amplification in audio and video edit suites. Crown to this day I believe would still be making a line up for studio/home use if it weren't for the Harmon Group taking them over. There's a reason a DC 300A Series II/PS 400 still sells for $350 that is 20 years old. I participate here because I have several setups using Polk out there and view them as I do Crown or even Emotiva. They offer something above the average big box store that you can count as a reliable investment over the years. -
DarqueKnight wrote: »I told you here that I was interested in auditioning a low noise design cable. How was this backpeddling? I was willing to take your challenge, but with better equipment. Did you see the quote from the AES Journal paper where the authors noted that the subjects had better discrimination with better equipment? You can't seem to grasp the fact that as you go up in cable quality, the noise content goes down and the ability to hear more sonic detail goes up.
However, there is some value in reviewing modest products. So please send your Belden cables to me. I will evaluate each pair on my two channel system using the evaluation methodology described in my Journal of Sensory Studies paper.
I will also take noise spectrum measurements of each cable similar to what I did here: Cable Cooker Noise Spectrum Measurements and here 1.2TL Inductor Burn In Measurements.
It will be interesting to see how my subjective listening evaluation will compare to my noise spectrum measurements.
As some cables have a tendency to revert with lack of use, please submit two pairs that were recently burned in for 400 hours and specify the date the burn in process ended. Also, if the original burned in pair have been dormant for some time, I would like to evaluate those to see if any difference in performance occurred due to the dormancy.
Therefore, I am asking for six pairs of cables:
1. Two pair recently burned in with 400 hours of use.
2. Two pair not burned in.
3. Two pair burned in for 400 hours, but have lain unused for some time.
If you don't mind, I would like to process one of the recently burned in pairs on the Cable Cooker and compare it to the pair with only 400 hours. Shortly after I complet my evaluation, I would like you to compare both of the recently burned in 400 hour pairs (one burned in on the Cable Cooker and one recently burned in by you for 400 hours) and post your evaluation here.
I have PM'ed my shipping address to you.
This should resolve your issues.
I take it that you need to know which cable is which so you can process one of the recently burned in pairs.
It doesn't address my original challenge. Let me know if I am reading your post incorrectly. -
Dude, give it a rest. It's Christmas. Go get a life and come back trolling tomorrow.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Dude, give it a rest. It's Christmas. Go get a life and come back trolling tomorrow.
Merry Christmas to you too... -
I take it that you need to know which cable is which so you can process one of the recently burned in pairs.
It doesn't address my original challenge. Let me know if I am reading your post incorrectly.
Damn dude...why do you have to make everything so difficult? I plainly and specifically asked for six sets of cables. Nowhere did I specifically ask, or even imply, that I wanted you to let me know which cable is which. That would defeat the purpose of the test.
This is what I asked:As some cables have a tendency to revert with lack of use, please submit two pairs that were recently burned in for 400 hours and specify the date the burn in process ended. Also, if the original burned in pair have been dormant for some time, I would like to evaluate those to see if any difference in performance occurred due to the dormancy.
Therefore, I am asking for six pairs of cables:
1. Two pair recently burned in with 400 hours of use.
2. Two pair not burned in.
3. Two pair burned in for 400 hours, but have lain unused for some time.
If you don't mind, I would like to process one of the recently burned in pairs on the Cable Cooker and compare it to the pair with only 400 hours. Shortly after I complet my evaluation, I would like you to compare both of the recently burned in 400 hour pairs (one burned in on the Cable Cooker and one recently burned in by you for 400 hours) and post your evaluation here.
To reiterate, my initial disinterest in reviewing the Belden cables was not backpeddling as you put it, it was just due to my lack of interest in reviewing entry level audio gear. However, since some of our members do have current interest in such products and since you keep bringing it up, I think your test would be of general interest to our membership.
In this thread, I compared the noise and listening performance characteristics of inexpensive Monster XP to higher performance alternatives (figures 12-22). I look forward to finding out how the Belden stacks up.
I expect that my listening and quantitative analysis will identify the 400 hour cables, so no identification is asked of you.
Are we clear now?
Am I not giving you everything you asked for and more?Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
Raife, you are looking deep into his bag.....and there is nothing in it.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
Raife, you are looking deep into his bag.....and there is nothing in it.
BDT
. . . other than an agenda.
Merry Christmas to all!VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
NAD SS rigs w/mods
GIK panels -
We now return to our regularly scheduled programming:"Further Thoughts On ABX Testing Of Stereophonic Audio Systems"Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
