Unstrap those amps for your SDA's

2

Comments

  • joeparaski
    joeparaski Posts: 1,865
    edited December 2010
    Are my SAE amps common ground?

    Joe
    Amplifiers: 1-SAE Mark IV, 4-SAE 2400, 1-SAE 2500, 2-SAE 2600, 1-Buttkicker BKA 1000N w/2-tactile transducers. Sources: Sony BDP CX7000es, Sony CX300/CX400/CX450/CX455, SAE 8000 tuner, Akai 4000D R2R, Technics 1100A TT, Epson 8500UB with Carada 100". Speakers:Polk SDA SRS, 3.1TL, FXi5, FXi3, 2-SVS 20-29, Yamaha, SVS center sub. Power:2-Monster HTS3500, Furman M-8D & RR16 Plus. 2-SAE 4000 X-overs, SAE 5000a noise reduction, MSB Link DAC III, MSB Powerbase, Behringer 2496, Monarchy DIP 24/96.
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,248
    edited December 2010
    dorokusai wrote: »
    What tubes are they?

    Eimac 304tl
    Sylvania 6SL7GT
    CV4024 don't see a brand name on them..

    2 of each in each amp
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,248
    edited December 2010
    dorokusai wrote: »
    What tubes are they?

    Had to post another pic..

    EimacTubes319.jpg
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  • dcoil
    dcoil Posts: 153
    edited December 2010
    I see your tubes listed, but what brand amp/pre are you running?

    In addition to your new awesome sound, from your pic I'll bet the candles and mood lighting help the WAF:rolleyes:
    SDA SRS modded: X’ovrd, de-polyed, inductorized, interconnectorized, re-posted, dynamited, RDO’d, spiked, gasketed, ringed (Larry's), and grill cloth blinged! Done this on my own? Not a chance. Thanks to Raife and all who forged easy to follow upgrades. At least a 100% improvement in sound and my personal listening pleasure! :cheesygrin:Pass XP-10 preamp, Parasound A21 amp, Pioneer Elite DV-58AV (Ric Shultz modded), Audioquest Sky IC's, No longer need my Sunfire sub after mods...
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,248
    edited December 2010
    I am running two pre amps:

    Adcom GFA-750 and a Dodd ELP
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  • Joe08867
    Joe08867 Posts: 3,919
    edited December 2010
    joeparaski wrote: »
    Could someone make this real simple and provide a "strapped" diagram please? And what is an AI-1 cable? How does it differ from the stock cable?

    Oh, and I'm bi-amping my SRS's...so anything different with this "strapping".?

    Joe

    Cheap Diagram coming up.

    Strapped Amps look like this.
    Amp 1's Ground
    _____________] Strap to connect amps together to make common ground.
    Amp 2's Ground

    AI-1 Cabled SDA's Look Like this.
    Amp 1 to Speaker 1
    _________________    @}@ AI-1 Cable instead of SDA Cable to connect grounds
    Amp 2 to Speaker 2
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2010
    TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »
    Eimac 304tl
    Sylvania 6SL7GT
    CV4024 don't see a brand name on them..

    2 of each in each amp

    When you get ready I can make some stellar suggestions for the 6SL7 and CV4024 (same as 12AT7). Since I have gear that uses both, but I agree with Doro spend a little time with it as is.

    If those are all late production tubes (late 70's early 80's), there are MUCH better out there for not a lot of coin. Are 4024's Mullard's or Brimar's? Are the Sylvania's marked ECG anywhere?

    The great thing about 6SL7's and 12AT7's is there are some nice sounding tubes out there, but they aren't near as popular as 6SN7's and 12AX7's so you can buy the same quality tubes for about 1/2 $$$.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2010
    Two I'll tell you about right off the top

    Telefunken ECC81 (euro designaton of 12AT7; exact same tube) are superb sounding and very neutral with great 3D imaging and last forever.

    1950's Raytheon 6414 3-mica black plate with D or Horseshoe getter are also excellent they add a little warmth and have a very nice top end and very nice soundstage. They are a little lower gain than the typical 12AT7/ECC81.

    For 6SL7 I have fallen in love with the 1950's Sylvania JAN CHS 6SL7WGT (tall or short brown base) black plate w/square getter. The soundstage is unbelieveable the high are very vivid and sparkly but never a hint of harshness........makes you feel like you are right in the music. Called "Chrome Domes"

    1940's Tung Sol 6SU7GTY (black glass, brown base) these are basically 6SL7's but the triodes are very, very tightly matched from the factory and were for critical Military installations. These tend to be rare because not a lot were made. I have a reliable source, but they have become very pricey since stock is drying up. These are a very close 2nd to the Sylvania's above. Simply sublime tubes.

    ****, you know me I could write pages about the tubes I've rolled. So I'll stop for now :tongue:

    Something for you to chew on Larry and yes, they will make a huge difference; you think those amps sound good now..............:wink:

    H9

    P.s. I can tell by the photo's those are 80's Sylvania's and CV4024's. Not the best amongst what's available, but better than current production stuff, IMO
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • joeparaski
    joeparaski Posts: 1,865
    edited December 2010
    Joe08867 wrote: »
    Cheap Diagram coming up.

    Strapped Amps look like this.
    Amp 1's Ground
    _____________] Strap to connect amps together to make common ground.
    Amp 2's Ground

    AI-1 Cabled SDA's Look Like this.
    Amp 1 to Speaker 1
    _________________    @}@ AI-1 Cable instead of SDA Cable to connect grounds
    Amp 2 to Speaker 2


    Hmmm....no diagrams there...I'm just as confused as before. Is this in Dk's SDA Compendium?

    Joe
    Amplifiers: 1-SAE Mark IV, 4-SAE 2400, 1-SAE 2500, 2-SAE 2600, 1-Buttkicker BKA 1000N w/2-tactile transducers. Sources: Sony BDP CX7000es, Sony CX300/CX400/CX450/CX455, SAE 8000 tuner, Akai 4000D R2R, Technics 1100A TT, Epson 8500UB with Carada 100". Speakers:Polk SDA SRS, 3.1TL, FXi5, FXi3, 2-SVS 20-29, Yamaha, SVS center sub. Power:2-Monster HTS3500, Furman M-8D & RR16 Plus. 2-SAE 4000 X-overs, SAE 5000a noise reduction, MSB Link DAC III, MSB Powerbase, Behringer 2496, Monarchy DIP 24/96.
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,248
    edited December 2010
    Thanks H9'

    When I get to that point I will pick your brain apart..:biggrin:

    I just want them paid off then I will really start to play...


    heiney9 wrote: »
    Two I'll tell you about right off the top

    Telefunken ECC81 (euro designaton of 12AT7; exact same tube) are superb sounding and very neutral with great 3D imaging and last forever.

    1950's Raytheon 6414 3-mica black plate with D or Horseshoe getter are also excellent they add a little warmth and have a very nice top end and very nice soundstage. They are a little lower gain than the typical 12AT7/ECC81.

    For 6SL7 I have fallen in love with the 1950's Sylvania JAN CHS 6SL7WGT (tall or short brown base) black plate w/square getter. The soundstage is unbelieveable the high are very vivid and sparkly but never a hint of harshness........makes you feel like you are right in the music. Called "Chrome Domes"

    1940's Tung Sol 6SU7GTY (black glass, brown base) these are basically 6SL7's but the triodes are very, very tightly matched from the factory and were for critical Military installations. These tend to be rare because not a lot were made. I have a reliable source, but they have become very pricey since stock is drying up. These are a very close 2nd to the Sylvania's above. Simply sublime tubes.

    ****, you know me I could write pages about the tubes I've rolled. So I'll stop for now :tongue:

    Something for you to chew on Larry and yes, they will make a huge difference; you think those amps sound good now..............:wink:

    H9

    P.s. I can tell by the photo's those are 80's Sylvania's and CV4024's. Not the best amongst what's available, but better than current production stuff, IMO
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  • Joe08867
    Joe08867 Posts: 3,919
    edited December 2010
    joeparaski wrote: »
    Hmmm....no diagrams there...I'm just as confused as before. Is this in Dk's SDA Compendium?

    Joe

    The little ] or }@ are the diagrams.

    Take the ground output from each amp and connect them together. This is strapping. If you use an AI-1 cable you do not have to do this. The AI-1 also takes the place of the SDA cable between the speakers.

    So the AI-1 cable acts as a strap and SDA cable all in one and sounds awesome doing it.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2010
    So one other thing that has not been mentioned in this thread that needs mentioning is:

    1) not all non-common ground amps can have their negative term strapped

    2) not all SDA's can use the AI-1, actually only a few select models.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,248
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    So one other thing that has not been mentioned in this thread that needs mentioning is:

    1) not all non-common ground amps can have their negative term strapped

    2) not all SDA's can use the AI-1, actually only a few select models.

    H9


    That is True!!!!

    Is there a list of SDA's that can use the AI-1 cable??

    I have the SDA1.2tl's/ SDA1C's/ CRS+'s. are these OK?? I know the 1.2/1.2tl's are OK but not sure on the others..
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2010
    TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »
    That is True!!!!

    Is there a list of SDA's that can use the AI-1 cable??

    I have the SDA1.2tl's/ SDA1C's/ CRS+'s. are these OK?? I know the 1.2/1.2tl's are OK but not sure on the others..

    I'd have to check when I get home, but those sound OK for the AI-1, except only certain serial # 1C's can use it. With regards to 1C's and the early model serial #'s there is a work around but you have to contact Polk to see how that works.

    Just wanted to mention it since these types of threads are used as reference sometimes.

    H9

    P.s. I believe only the CRS+'s with pin/blade (1989 model) can use AI-1, but I'd have to check my notes for sure.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited December 2010
    All pin/blade SDA's can use the A1. Some of them do need to have the blade connected to the ground terminal in the cabinet. As for the BB SDA's I would also like to know what speakers can use the A1. There should be a sticky in the vintage speaker section of the forum.
    Merry Christmas
    Ben
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2010
    ben62670 wrote: »
    All pin/blade SDA's can use the A1. Some of them do need to have the blade connected to the ground terminal in the cabinet. As for the BB SDA's I would also like to know what speakers can use the A1. There should be a sticky in the vintage speaker section of the forum.
    Merry Christmas
    Ben

    Not so sure that is true Ben, but I'll check when I get home and post the definitive (if there is such a thing) list later tonight.

    Actually I've posted the info about the 1C's atleast twice before.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited December 2010
    TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »
    And the 5802 sounds great!!!! Wait till you build yourself a A1 cable, Yes it is that much better...you don't notice it till you do it..

    This is all in your mind. If you do a double blind test, you won't be able to tell the difference.:smile::wink:
    ben62670 wrote: »
    All pin/blade SDA's can use the A1.

    No. See attached pic.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    So one other thing that has not been mentioned in this thread that needs mentioning is:

    1) not all non-common ground amps can have their negative term strapped

    I disagree,if it's common ground(a non differential/ bridged output stage) there should be no issue strapping the negative terminals.There are some amps that have a small amount of resistance added between the grounds of the two channels (to provide some isolation) but these can and must be strapped.Otherwise potental high ground currents might cause those resistors to fail.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2010
    FTGV wrote: »
    I disagree,if it's common ground(a non differential/ bridged output stage) there should be no issue strapping the negative terminals.There are some amps that have a small amount of resistance added between the grounds of the two channels (to provide some isolation) but these can and must be strapped.Otherwise potental high ground currents might cause those resistors to fail.

    Hmmm............I was told by NP under no circumstances should I strap any of the Pass X series amps when I asked specifically about this.

    I even sent him all the SDA schematics and diagrams so he understood what I was asking.

    Not challenging you at all because you have a lot more practical knowledge that I do, but I believe my statement was correct. Also there have been members who did strap a non-common ground amp and had lowered output vs. the AI-1 because of the resistors. Not sure I can find the thread/posts

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Hmmm............I was told by NP under no circumstances should I strap any of the Pass X series amps when I asked specifically about this.

    Because the X series amps are a balanced differental/bridged output stage,not common ground.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2010
    FTGV wrote: »
    Because an X series amp is a balanced differental/bridged output stage,not common ground.

    Hence my statement "not all non-common ground amps can have the neg terminals strapped".

    Perhaps you misread my original statement, I said exactly what you just stated :smile: Or I'm missing something in translation?

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Also there have been members who did strap a non-common groundand had lowered output vs. the AI-1 because of the resistors. Not sure I can find the thread/posts

    H9
    If you re-read my first post I was specifically saying common ground.
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Hence my statement "not all non-common ground amps can have the neg terminals strapped".
    Oops,sorry Brock,I apologise for some reason thenonpart of your post didn't compute.I read it common ground so we are in complete agreement.I'll go sit in the corner now.:redface:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2010
    FTGV wrote: »
    If you re-read my first post I was specifically saying common ground.

    But you disagreed when I stated "non-common" ground, then you confirmed what I stated. :confused::biggrin::smile:

    Why would anyone strap a common ground amp for use with SDA's? That's why I was confused. I never said not all "common ground amps....."

    :biggrin:
    :wink:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited December 2010
    FTGV wrote: »
    Oops,sorry Brock,I apologise for some reason thenonpart of your post didn't compute.I read it common ground so we are in complete agreement.I'll go sit in the corner now.:redface:

    Ha...ha.....LOL :biggrin:

    It's all good Fred

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    But you disagreed when I stated "non-common" ground, then you confirmed what I stated. :confused::biggrin::smile:

    Why would anyone strap a common ground amp for use with SDA's? That's why I was confused. I never said not all "common ground amps....."

    :biggrin:
    :wink:

    H9
    Se above.
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited December 2010
    Some Adcom's that are common ground do have resistors between the channels. If you don't strap them the little resistors will blow.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited December 2010
    ben62670 wrote: »
    Some Adcom's that are common ground do have resistors between the channels. If you don't strap them the little resistors will blow.
    Yep the wire effectively bypasses the resistors so they don't see the large currents that could cause them to fail.The amps with the ground isolation resistors aren't truly common ground ,but when strapped they become common ground.
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,248
    edited December 2010
    So why am I experiancing better sound without the strap??
    I went at it again with the adcom tonight and you can clearly hear the difference without the strap using the AI cable..
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited December 2010
    The use of the A1 negates the need for strapping,so I guess the improvement your hearing is purely the result of using it.
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