Audio noob seeking advice on receiver/setup for Monitor 70

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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    TECHNOKID wrote: »
    Other non sense Behringer equipment failure; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-l_P8hROLY

    To the OP, I hope this is sufficent to convince you to stay away from any Behringer equipment.

    And make sure to read all the responses below :wink:

    HK 247 and 347 series receivers were absolutely terrible. Doesn't mean everything made by the Harman Kardon group should be avoided.

    Crowns XTi series when first released had some serious bugs, doesn't mean you should avoid Crown.

    All I can say is that personaly have 3 peices of Behringer equipement that is working just fine and I personally know about 8/9 others that do as well with no problems.

    Again not advocating one solution over the other. Just dispelling some of the BS. One guys youtube rant does not a systemic problem make. Maybe he f'd up his equipment somehow.
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  • wolfpack
    wolfpack Posts: 17
    edited November 2010
    Dont worry about it Jinjuku... I am sure that all you guys are trying to help me decide on what is a good option for me :biggrin:
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited November 2010
    wolfpack wrote: »
    I have been reading quiet a lot of positive feedback about HK and Yamaha AVRs. Are there any reliable places where I can look for used/refurbished equipment? This way it would be possible for me to get slightly better equipment (maybe a used NAD or something of that sort) in my budget.

    Having fun WP? Welcome to Club Polk!!

    HK refurbs are often available at their ebay direct site....Don't know if Yamaha has a similar site or not.

    http://stores.ebay.com/Harman-Audio

    Used NADs and various sundry things can be found both HERE (Club Polk) and www.audiogon.com

    Good luck!

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    wolfpack wrote: »
    I have been reading quiet a lot of positive feedback about HK and Yamaha AVRs. Are there any reliable places where I can look for used/refurbished equipment? This way it would be possible for me to get slightly better equipment (maybe a used NAD or something of that sort) in my budget.

    Craigslist, Ebay, Audiogon. Hit classified sections here, AVSForum, HTShack, Audioholics.

    You should be able to find a NAD integrated amp or receiver pretty cheap.
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  • TECHNOKID
    TECHNOKID Posts: 4,298
    edited November 2010
    wolfpack wrote: »
    I have been reading quiet a lot of positive feedback about HK and Yamaha AVRs. Are there any reliable places where I can look for used/refurbished equipment? This way it would be possible for me to get slightly better equipment (maybe a used NAD or something of that sort) in my budget.
    You might want to check with Neil first?

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109769

    You also might want to check if geppy1 has sold his gear yet;

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109668

    You migth want to check if there is still anything of interest into amherst audio pile;

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109591
    That being said, be weary of buying used or refurbished stuff on ebay.
    Yes, I would think you'd be safer buying from Polk's FS, check the above and as mentioned check the sellers sales ratings.
    DARE TO SOAR:
    “Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life” ;)
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  • wolfpack
    wolfpack Posts: 17
    edited November 2010
    Thanks for the links cnh, jinjuku and Keiko. TECHNONID that was lightning quick:wink: I have also posted those members and will await their reply. If they are still available for sale, I sure am going to bug you guys for more advice :tongue:
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    wolfpack wrote: »
    Thanks for the links cnh, jinjuku and Keiko. TECHNONID that was lightning quick:wink: I have also posted those members and will await their reply. If they are still available for sale, I sure am going to bug you guys for more advice :tongue:

    Also check out BestBuy. They have a lot of turnover of last years AVR models currently.

    For my HT rig I picked up the Denon 4308Ci for $410 (no remote). That receiver a few years ago was MSRP $2200 and real market of ~$1600.

    Hands down a better receiver than my newer HK AVR3600 that I just sold.
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  • wolfpack
    wolfpack Posts: 17
    edited November 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Also check out BestBuy. They have a lot of turnover of last years AVR models currently.

    For my HT rig I picked up the Denon 4308Ci for $410 (no remote). That receiver a few years ago was MSRP $2200 and real market of ~$1600.

    Hands down a better receiver than my newer HK AVR3600 that I just sold.

    Cool thing.... I sure will!
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,566
    edited November 2010
    From zzounds.com product review on the A500.

    "Not even Fred Sanford would want this piece of junk!!!"
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    wolfpack wrote: »
    Cool thing.... I sure will!

    There is an Onkyo SR705 at AVSForum for $250....
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    F1nut wrote: »
    From zzounds.com product review on the A500.

    "Not even Fred Sanford would want this piece of junk!!!"

    From zzsounds.com product review:

    As I said before, I work in Hi-Fi, I could have gotten any stereo integrated amp from DENON, Cambridge or NAD below cost price. And I found the behringer outperforming all in almost all fronts, sure the Cambridge's are very nice sounding but they simply cannot compete with this for transparency of signal or come anywhere close in power output unless you want to spend 6 times the amount of money you would in buying the behringer. Product of the YEAR for me!

    And

    Currently it is providing great power cheaply, unless it dies or i upgrade speakers i cannot see myself replacing it.

    Some good some bad. You'll get that.

    From Musicians Friend:

    Bought to replace current treble amplifier in a 5 way active crossover system. When purchased we spent a day on Paradgim reference series speakers and comparing to a Bryston amplifier before inserting into the active crossover system. Bryston slightly better on low end, Behringer slightly better on top end. Overall the equal to the Bryston although there will be many who will not believe this so go ahead and spend over 10 times the price for same performance. As Audio Critic said ".....the most incredible bargain in the history of audio..." I highly, HIGHLY recommend using in balanced mode if you have that ability.


    And

    Using the amp for my little PA system for church events. Runs like a charm for the past year. Clear sound and reliable gear.

    And

    Have this amp now for over a year and run it into my Klipsch monitors. This amp is awesome - the high frequencies are crystal clear and the bass is real tight. Great job Behringer! This is a highly recommended amp.

    And

    I purchased this power amp to run a boss digital multi-effects unit into a 4X12 guitar cabinet. I have never had a cleaner sound come through my cab. I can set up my effects channels with head phones at home, then when I run the output through this amp, it reproduces my tones and effects with little to no coloring of the audio signal. It doesn't have any bells or whistles but what it does have, good clean sound amplification, it has in spades.

    And

    I hooked up the new amp using 18 gauge zip cord that I had before. Well, the results were unimpressive and the amp kept limiting out and cutting off the speakers. I went and purchased "monster" cables as a last resort. Well, the amp now delivers the volume and bass that I was missing. Absolute power is absolute happiness.

    And

    I've used this amp for studio mains, home stereo and live bridged running my monitor section. It's performed very well in all three environments, but especially well chaining two 15" monitors and 2 12" monitors. A pair would work very well as main/monitor amps in a small hall environment.

    And

    I bought this amp for smaller DJ jobs. I have been using a Peavy CS 800 for my lows and a powered board to run my highs and mids. The first thing I notice when I hooked it up was it's clarity...I was amazed!!! It is a great amp for smaller venues. I use it with a couple of Behriger 15"s and get great results. Nice for the price...

    And

    I was using a NADY SMA-2130 as my reference amp and a pair of Behringer Truth B2031P's as my monitors. My main complaint that spurred me to get the A500 was that the Nady's fans were REALLY noisy. Then the A500 came.
    I could hardly focus on studying for finals. I was hearing things that i had NEVER heard before. The clarity of this amp was very impressive and somewhat sad at the same time. When I listen to old mixes that I did using that Nady amp, I hear nasty sounds that would have never made it past the mixing stage on this amp. Oh well. Better to be wiser now.

    Buy this amp. Just do it. Your ears and your speakers will thank you.

    And

    I use this with one of Behringers mixers as a PA system for my band and it has been great. It is very durable.....lets just say its seen its share of drops and its still going. It pushes out enough for my 4 peice to have practice and we have even put on a small gig with it! I would suggest this for any band trying to get something nice for their money!

    The list goes on. Yes one of the complaints are units that have channel crap out. All I know is mine is going on three years just fine. I know another guy that is using 5 of them in his setup no issues. Sometimes you have to take a chance. My personal experience with three of their products would lead me to purchase a 4th.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    From Amazon:

    You can't go wrong with this amp. Excellent value. It has been working flawlessly in my keyboard rig ever since I got it.

    I bought this amp to power my recently acquired Martin Logan Montage speakers (4 0hms) in my home theater system and so far it's working great. Plenty of power to make these speakers really sing and you can't beat the price. Now I can enjoy good volume levels without worrying about the Behringer or my Denon AVR 2809ci overheating.

    I had read a lot about Behringer's crappy products. I new what I was getting into. For me their products are my only price range for now. A means to an end. I was very excited to get a reference amp. When I first set it up and plugged in the left channel wasn't playing. I was heart broken until I remembered the posts about crappy assembly. I opened the top and saw that the wires weren't plugged in. It had a connector. I connected. Worked perfectly. It still does and it sounds many times better than anything I've had. For the price it will get me by perfectly.

    I use this amp to drive the highly revealing Martin Logan Aeon-i electrostatic hybrid speakers. These are a fairly demanding load and are extremely transparent. This amp sounds amazing and drives my speakers perfectly. After over 30 years as an audiophile and trying literally dozens of high end expensive amplifiers in search of the audio holy grail, I am done, happy, totally satisfied with the Behringer amp. Put all your money into speakers and drive them with this amp and you can thank me later. A fantastic bargain!

    For the record (pun intended), I also own a highly-regarded 200 watts per channel "boutique brand" power amplifier that cost an order of magnitude more than my Behringer A-500. The more expensive amp is a very well-made and very musical piece of machinery. So is the astonishingly-affordable Behringer. What's my point? When I cue up a demanding CD, equalize the volume between the two amps, and listen to each in its turn at reasonable volume levels, my "golden ears" can't discern much...if any...difference. Both are detailed, articulate, and satisfying.

    Purchase from a retailer with a no-hassle return policy. Use an AMEX card to double up the warranty. If you can afford it go with a more respected brand.

    I guess I simply lucked out with my three peices.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited November 2010
    Keiko wrote: »
    Finished now?

    I doubt it :rolleyes:

    What I find so appalling is he thinks the OP isn't smart enough to use Google and find all this information for himself. But then again Jinjiku's posts aren't really for the OP he's trying to show the rest of us who know Behringer gear isn't that great musically or mechanically we are incorrect. The motive is clear and certainly self centered.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited November 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Overall the equal to the Bryston...
    One of them has a 20yr warranty,wonder if that tells us anything?:wink:As for the Audio Critic's claim,I give them very little cred as I remember reading in an older issue where they them claimed a $200 Pioneer integrated was about good as gets SQ wise.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    I doubt it :rolleyes:

    What I find so appalling is he thinks the OP isn't smart enough to use Google and find all this information for himself.

    OP already did:

    I have researched on the Berhinger products mentioned in the post above and they seem to to be quiet impressive

    lol...
    heiney9 wrote: »
    But then again Jinjiku's posts aren't really for the OP he's trying to show the rest of us who know Behringer gear isn't that great musically or mechanically we are incorrect. The motive is clear and certainly self centered.

    H9

    Well, you aren't (correct). For people on a budget it will work fine.

    The motive is to refute your constant B.S. :wink:

    It's clear your only experience with Behringer is through an Internet listening session.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    Keiko wrote: »
    I had the Behringer A-500 on loan to try out on my 2 channel stereo system. I've been an enthusiast for over 30 years and have listened to everything from the Dynaco tube equipment to current Linn and Bryston equipment. I'm not an audiophile because I don't change equipment every year. What I have is an antique Quad 306 power amplifier and matching Quad 44 preamp (unmodified with Quad cd card). I almost started to believe the Audio Critic rave review of the Behringer A-500 until I substituted it in my system. I listen mainly to classical music and it was immediately apparent that the Behringer does not have a grip on the music. The drama, excitement and refinement of a top notch orchestra is lost. The bass is generous but ill-defined. The violins are diffuse.

    My antique Rotel RX402 receiver (jaw dropping performance for a 1970's receiver) putting out 24 watts/channel is a David slaying Goliath (Behringer).

    If it's too good to be true, it probably is. The Behringer A-500 measures like a heavyweight at a ridiculously low price. If you are serious about music rather than equipment and technology, stay away from the Behringer.

    ____________________________________________________________

    Bought 2 of these amps. Made too cheap for critical listening use. Compared to the Crowns & Brystons that we already had in the studio, the Behringers weren't as refined or polished sounding. The treble was harsh with certain recordings. We used the Behringer at the studio to powered a pair of JBL LSR speakers and also a pair of B&W speakers, don't know which model. We also hooked the behringers to a pair of JBL MRX for an outdoor setup. Bryston amps usally power the B&W studio speakers, and crown amps are usually used for the outdoor speakers and also the JBL LSR studio speakers. In all the set ups, the Behringer had plenty of power for normal use. The JBL MRX's (PA speakers) would have been under powered if only one Behringer was used, but with two running each in mono, it was fine. Sound quality was fine except for some treble harshness. Bass was powerful, mids good too. Just some grain in the high end that we didn't hear with the crowns or the brystons in the studio. The treble harshness wasn't quite as bad with the outdoor setup, so the A500 would be fine for PA or sound reenforcement use. I mainly see the harshness in the high frequencies to be a drawback for critical listening/studio use.

    wow an honest to goodness post. Remember the entire context is $350 2.0 electronics stack. I've had Crown amplification since 87'. When chance favors me with 6 channels of Crown K2 I will be all over it.

    BTW I doubt you are using Monitor 70's in the studio either.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    Keiko wrote: »
    Maybe he's trying to convince himself of Behringer's awesomeness. :rolleyes:

    The EP 2500 and DCX absolutley rocks for sub duty. You can argue till you are blue but it won't change the facts.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited November 2010
    The OP could buy a used Adcom 535 and associated pre-amp and have money left over and it would sound 10X more musical than the Behringer stuff all day, every day.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    Keiko wrote: »
    Precisely the point. For 350.00, he could invest in that HK3490, the Yamaha I mentioned earlier or something else used. So many other choices as well. He'd have something more suitable, reliable and better sounding than what you're suggesting. I don't care what you say. No way in Hell are you going to convince me that Behringer is a solid choice given the OP's budget. Sorry sport, he can have better than that amp and be happier for it.

    At $350 for Pre and Amplification we will have to disagree. A fully balanced setup with components that a lot of people find competent in context of the price...

    Hopefully he can score that Onkyo for $250.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    The OP could buy a used Adcom 535 and associated pre-amp and have money left over and it would sound 10X more musical than the Behringer stuff all day, every day.

    H9

    I didn't see you post an actual setup before. I agree with a 535 or 545 and a Adcom pre.
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited November 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    The EP 2500 and DCX absolutley rocks for sub duty. .
    Agreed for the money the EP2500 is well suited for that purpose but the claims made for them being the sonic equal of the likes of Bryston is a stretch IME.The DCX 2496 offers a lot of flexability thus making it a fave amongst the DIY active speaker crowd.However I would'nt expect it to be the last word in resolution.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    The Crown XLS 402D is on sale at Amazon for $199. I would purchase that over an A500 any day of the week.
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  • newrival
    newrival Posts: 2,017
    edited November 2010
    I cant vouch for this but I do know I've enjoyed their stereo receivers in the past. these new ones are supposed to be quite a bargain at their respective prices.
    yamaha r-s500:
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882115286&Tpk=r-s500
    design is where science and art break even.
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  • cstmar01
    cstmar01 Posts: 4,424
    edited November 2010
    I once had a friend that bought a Berhingers bass amp. The thing was a pile of crap and after about 6 months was terrible stopped working and sounded like butt.

    I had another friend who got a guitar amp, similar problems, sounded like crap and didn't hold up.

    My impression of the company.

    They suck, there is better things out there that can be bought and found, takes some looking. If SQ is important than the last thing I would ever recommend is this stuff, or any pro audio gear for home music listening.

    Oh wow look mom it says its got a butt ton of watts.

    Yes son, and so that way you can crank it up so you can go deaf and not hear the horrible noise it produces.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    xcapri79 wrote: »
    Jinjuku. Thank you for enlightening us on the use of pro amps as an economical alternative for good amplification. You have provided some good information to the Op and the rest of us to consider.
    I was interested in the Crown Audio XLS1000 Class D amp. Impressive power for an 11lb amp for $300 delivered.

    Crown XLS 1000 Minimum Guaranteed Power:
    • Stereo, 2 ohms (per ch.): 550W
    • Stereo, 4 ohms (per ch.): 350W
    • Stereo, 8 ohms (per ch.): 215W
    • Bridge-Mono, 8 ohms: 700W
    • Bridge-Mono, 4 ohms: 1100W

    Is this too good to be true?

    Not at all. Crown, QSC, Crest, Yorkville, will all deliver their rated power in spades and they will do it clean.

    Even though the HK and Yamaha receivers are a solid and convienent solution there is no way any one would dare pit their amplification section against something like the Crown XLS402d. It would just be an **** wooping on all fronts.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    cstmar01 wrote: »
    Oh wow look mom it says its got a butt ton of watts.

    Yes son, and so that way you can crank it up so you can go deaf and not hear the horrible noise it produces.


    It just goes to show that people shouldn't talk about stuff they don't have any experience on.

    The Crown mentioned is going to have a ton of headroom, great dampening factor, high slew rate and just flat out balls to the wall.

    I have way too much time on Crown/QSC. Get your ears on a Crown Studio Reference I sometime or one or the older Macro-Tech's. You'll feel mid's out of a quality speaker like you were holding a phonebook to your chest and someone was hitting it with a sledge hammer. All the while being nimble, tactile, responsive.
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  • cstmar01
    cstmar01 Posts: 4,424
    edited November 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    It just goes to show that people shouldn't talk about stuff they don't have any experience on.

    The Crown mentioned is going to have a ton of headroom, great dampening factor, high slew rate and just flat out balls to the wall.

    I have way too much time on Crown/QSC. Get your ears on a Crown Studio Reference I sometime or one or the older Macro-Tech's. You'll feel mid's out of a quality speaker like you were holding a phonebook to your chest and someone was hitting it with a sledge hammer. All the while being nimble, tactile, responsive.

    I've had plenty of experience with Crown amps. Don't talk about something you don't know.

    I've had a lot of experience with it, once again nothing I would ever use for a dedicated 2 channel set up as it sounds like crap for that usage.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    cstmar01 wrote: »
    I've had plenty of experience with Crown amps. Don't talk about something you don't know.

    I've had a lot of experience with it, once again nothing I would ever use for a dedicated 2 channel set up as it sounds like crap for that usage.

    Then you would have obvously known that Crown has in the past and still continues (not as much as they used to) make amps for studio use.

    The DC series, The Classic series, the Studio Reference I / II, the PS series... But I digress because we are talking the in context of what one person can do with it. Any time any place with $350 of SRC/Crown new equipement vs new receivers mentioned here. If you really think the HK or Yammy (I thought all you guys said they were bright/harsh, hmmm) amp section can even climb into the ring with the XLS 402d. BTW I don't even think you can get the HK for under $400.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    Keiko wrote: »
    Forget him, bro. He'll never get it. Let him ramble. The OP has taken heed and is considering more suitable options.

    Yep, hopefully he can snag that Onkyo for $250 I point out over at AVS. Hell of a bargain.

    This other tangent that we are on is because of your non-stop trolling and B.S.

    You didn't like the A500, fine. I come back with another vendor for same $$ and you still rant on and on.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited November 2010
    xcapri79 wrote: »
    Is fan noise an issue with these pro amps? On a stage with high ambient noise it wouldn't be, but in a home listening to some jazz or classical music it might be?

    Since home use won't even come close to the demands of use seen at concerts and clubs you can simply, easily fan mod them (1000's have done it). You can easily add a quiet fan that would be below ambient. In the case of my EP 2500 I simply did the fan mod and it is silent.

    To keep this in context people mod stuff all the time. Just take a look at the LSi 9's with popular x-over mods. It's a long standing tradition in this space.

    Crown for the longest time produced amplification for Studio use. This was pretty much up till the Harman Group purchased Crown. They couldn't be seen competing with their JBL/Mark Levinson/Lexicon subsidiaries.

    Back in the early 80's they even dabbled in car audio.
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