Building another new sub!

K-daugh

is there a certain website that you use to figure out the tune and the port size????

fatpiggy

Yes I think we are very lucky here to have such a great resource.I have a stand of timber on our place mainly Tallow wood, a few Bloodwood and Grey Gums.The real nice timbers are deep in the National forests like Rosewood, Red and White Mahogony, Cedar and Beechwood still are plentiful but it locked up.You can still get large burls locally but they are very expensive as they are very rare.Lots of timber here, but not much seasoned.We have saw mills all round the place but they dont kiln dry.So if you want good seasoned timber you have to buy a slab and dry it out your self.I dont mess with timber but alot of farmers do as a side line to generate some extra income.

Fatpiggy

fatpiggy

K-daugh you need to download a program called WinISD it is a free speaker design program it will also help you work out what size vents you need and what length the tubes need to be to get the tuning correct for the speaker box size to match your driver.Its the program I use.Do a search on goggle.

Fatpiggy

greyford1979

K-daugh wrote: »

is there a certain website that you use to figure out the tune and the port size????

I have used different sites and programs before when building the subs. One of the main ones I use is WinISD. Best thing to do is google how to make a subwoofer and how to calculate port size. Lots of info out there to read thru. To figure out the port size you need to know the volume of box you're building, some specs of the driver, how many ports, the tune is up to you. Once you have this info you can use the programs to calculate port length for the tune that you desire, which however is limited to since it could be very long for different diameter ports. Looks like fatpiggy already beat me to it lol

fatpiggy

Their is another program called Flare-it which is also very good it just does port sizes ect.I have version 2.52 you can get a copy at this website http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/flare-testing.htm its an Austrlain sub builders site.

Fat piggy

K-daugh

sometime in the near future i will be building a diy sub .....i wanna use a dayton 12"(the better 12"...i know there is a few of different qualities)a bash 500 watt digital amp (parts express .....im thinking the box i want to make 18x18x18..... 3/4" mdf wrapped in oak veneer stained ebony with an mdf top painted high gloss black (similar to greyford's top)and i wanna run dual 3" ports ....i think......i also think i want the tune to be 18hz .....still not fully decide on box size but ill run the specs through one of those programs and see whats up.....
i have a question about ported subs.....with ported subs placement is much more critical than with sealed sub enclosures .....yes or no also how is the sonic difference between the two and can you get the same tune as a dual ported sub out of a sealed sub????

fatpiggy

If you want Boom like make the windows shake and scare the nieghbours port subs do a better job.They use the vents bouncing off the wall or floor to maginfy the bass effect.Where you place the sub is not that important as the low frequency's cant be located by the human ear.Some people say you need to find the right place in the room to get the best boom effect.But if you have a large sub it dosnt make that much diffrence.Personally I dont like boom shaking the crap out of the house and stirring up the neighbours isnt good.I like tight clean base so I go for sealed sub's ie no vents.You loose a little in volume and lower frequency but you get better clarity of the base for music.Even with movies sealed subs sound ok.Trying to chase a sub that goes down to 20hz will cost you alot of money and you will need a large box.Each to thier own.If your starting out a sub build, you need to decide what size box you can live with.Most cheaper sub drivers need large enclosures like 70 - 80 ltrs which translates into a huge box you have to hide somewhere in your room.The more expensive sub's will work in 30 ltr enclosures which is alot smaller.But you will need a larger amp to drive it.The other thing you need to work out is the size of your room, a small room only needs a 10" sub a meduim size room a 12" a large room 15" ect.You can even get away with 2 small 8" subs and the sound will be equal to a 12" easy.Plenty of options.But I would first look at what size sub you want to live with.Then find a driver that will fit into that size box that will do the job you want.Subs are great they really do make a huge diffrence to your sound setup, once you get a sub you will never regret it.

Fatpiggy

K-daugh

the room size is 16'x18'x8' ceilings all in feet fyi and the maximum size box the wifey would allow would be 2'x2'x2' what would you suggest piggy for the size of the driver and the size of the amp

fatpiggy

Man thats a huge sub works out to 6.37 cu.ft or 180.5 ltrs.You have plenty of options.I dont think you would need a sub box as large as that you could go alot smaller 23 D" x 20 H" x 20 W" for a vented 10" sub around 3.5 cuft.For your room size you could get away with a vented 10" peerless 830452 XLS sub 300w bash amp no problems has a box requirement of 3.16cu/ft .If you want something with a bit more grunt to shake the **** out out of the house Id go a 12" 500 watt amp.Maybe one of the Dayton 12" refrence drivers they get good raves.The Bash amps are good amps, but you would need at least a 500w to drive one of the dayton sub drivers.Box size for the dayton vented would be around 3 cu/ft a bit smaller than the peerless maybe 23D" X 20 H" x 18. W".
You can of course tweak the size of the enclosure like make it longer but not as high ect.These are just 2 drivers.Their are heaps of drivers that that you could match to a box that size.If you go for a seal sub you can drop the size down to near 12" square.

Fatpiggy

K-daugh

ok now you have me leaning towards sealed.....its less complicated....and i can make it smaller whats the biggest driver i could put in a 12"cube with a 500 watt bash amp....or with that small of a box do you need a more powerful amp......

K-daugh

i was thinking about the aurum cantis ac250mkII the specs seem to match to a sealed configuration according to the subwoofer guide on www.partsexpress.com ......still not sure about the box size though is this the v.a.s value??

K-daugh

lets put it this way if i was gnna do a sealed enclosure any thing under a 15" cube would work fine for me with a ten or twelve " woofer but i definately want the 500 watt amp ...would this work....sorry greyford i dont mean to take over your thread .....i should start my own but i think it would be interesting if you guys or anyone....could take us all through the box size process and the different specs and values of a woofer and how they are relevant to box size.......just a thought ....thanks guys ....again sorry greyford

Face

K-daugh wrote: »

i was thinking about the aurum cantis ac250mkII the specs seem to match to a sealed configuration according to the subwoofer guide on www.partsexpress.com ......still not sure about the box size though is this the v.a.s value??

Did you download WinISD yet?

K-daugh

yes but ithink i need to do it again it doesnt seem to be woking correctly it wont let me close the program

fatpiggy

A 10inch driver would be the largest driver you could fit into a 12inch cube.you loose 1.5" in size due to the thickness of the MDF.A 500 watt amp would be a better choice more power is always better with subs.If I was going to build another sealed sub.I would use a 10" SEAS driver with a 300watt Bash amp.Box size 30Ltrs.Prices have come down on sea drivers.The last set of subs I built I used Monocor SP-255 10" drivers in a 30ltr sealed box with 60% stuffing.Sound quality was very tight.I used a 200watt 8ohm mono sub amp to drive the two subs so they are passive subs.I have one each side of my front speakers.Really fills in the lower register.Music just dosnt sound right without the subs.

I do have a 10" PSW 350 sub that I turn on for movies just for a bit more boom, but I perfere the sealed subs the missus likes the boom of the Polk PSW 350 for movies and games.My woman is a mad gamer.All I can suggest is do alot of reading, its a great learning experince and will give you a firm understand of how speaker design and enclosures work.I would not say it is cheaper.The cheapest way to get a good sub is read the reviews and hunt down a secondhand unit.

But if you want to learn about speaker building,rebuilding, building a sub is a fun project.I would say Greyford would agree with me here.Its rewarding because you have to learn alot and it opens your mind as to the reasons why certain designs work better than other.

So get reading K-Daugh their will be an exam at the end of the week.Only kidding.

Fatpiggy

Face

FYI, Keiga, BASH and O-Audio make great plate amps. I'd avoid Dayton amps as their power ratings are usually inflated, sometimes as much as 50%.

K-daugh

Wow I need a math refresher ......how do you figure out volume ......is it lxwxh ?????also is it true for sealed subs you should look for a low fs a high qts and a high xmax also a soft cone /suspension because I was looking at the seas 10 " and the one that fit all the specs had an aluminum cone which is stiff.....the softer cone had an fs value of 34 .....does anyone have an answer on the perfect woofer for a 13"x13"x13" sealed sub ......10" woofer

fatpiggy

K-daugh,
You really need to do your home work.I could be feeding you information till the cows come home, but you really need to do alot of reading and learn how to use Win SD.

Thier is no perfect driver that will fit in a 12" cube.You can put a high Xmax driver in a sealed small box but you will you will loose alot of lower frequency.Some designs use a passive radator to compensate for the small working space.But to get the best compromise you need to use a good driver in an average sized box 30ltrs sealed is probally the smallest you would want to go.Manufactures build drivers to operate within a giving size enclosure.Its just the way the driver has been designed.

Generally the manufacture recommends a sealed cubic foot enclosure size and a base reflex (vented )cubic foot enclosure size for their designed driver.Cubic feet is imperial measurements ,Litres is the same measurement just it is metric.I cubic foot is about 30ltrs 1 cubic foot is 12" x12" x12".

They also design the driver to operate at a given Ohms rating ie, 4 ohms like what is generally used in car systems or 8 ohm as is generally used in home audio systems.They also design the driver to operate at a given power rating like watts RMS. SPL sound level at 1 metre Db ect.

Using the designed parameters that the manufacture lists for its driver you can enter those specifications into WinSD.Using WinSD you can measure the effects of changing the enclosure size and enclosure tuning vents using visual graphs.WinSD helps you to get the right size enclosure for the tuning that you are trying to achieve.Lower frequency larger box longer larger vents is the general rule.smaller box higher frequency smaller vents.Small sealed box flat response high frequency.

Their are more advance designing programs out thier that do other types of models for quite advance speaker designs.Like TL's (transmission line) and sonar sub designs all kinds of designs.

You have much to learn grasshopper.

fatpiggy

K-daugh

lol thanks piggy...yes i do have alot to learn im not denying that....i appreciate your advice i am going to re download win sd again tonight hopefully it responds better......i need to play with that program and keep reading up on everything ....thanks for all the help im sure ill be starting a thread on this topic in a few months when im closer to the build....maybe you can chime in with some more advice then..thanks all

fatpiggy

K-daugh,
Plenty of advice around here.Im sure thier are people that know alot more than me on this forum, your at the right place that is for sure.If I see your posts I'll chip in what I know.I think its great people having a go at building speakers, its what really makes this a great hobby.Anybody that has a go building a sub is alright by me its not easy getting it right and deserves alot of respect.It takes alot of hours to build these speakers and alot of money.

Fatpiggy.

Face

https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=45_338_380&products_id=1347

fatpiggy

Hey Face,
I like this one better its a 10" got great numbers.Squeeze this one into 30ltr sealed with a 300w Bash amp would be sweet.Great for music.

https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=45_338_340&products_id=8535

Fat piggy

Face

I believe that sub will be in the newest version of the Orion.



Using WinISD, I had a hard time getting it to model flat to 20hz, or I would have recommended it. It definitely is a beast of a woofer.

I have a extra pair of these woofers and am considering using them as a pair of stereo subs off a single plate amp. http://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=822

fatpiggy

Face,
There isnt too many drivers that will make 20hz in a small enclosure maybe some of the refrence drivers but well out of my budget for sure.I think for a good price music sealed sub the 10" Sea is good value.Scanspeak make some great drivers too both top brands you wouldnt go wrong either way.If you knock up a couple of sealed prestiges I think you would be better to drive them with a seperate sub amp, you can get mono sub amps cheap these days.

Fatpiggy

greyford1979

K-daugh, from what I have read, fatpiggy has given you a lot of great advice. Definitely tons of reading out there to learn about subs and confusing you at the same time lol. That's how I started, just doing lots of reading and one day just saying what the hell and decided to build one myself. Once you do decide what direction you want to go in we ant to see pics:biggrin: One thing you might want to do when you start and build the enclosure is test it out before you put a finish on it. This way if it doesn't sound to your liking you haven't spent all the time finishing it. No matter how good it may look performance wise using one of these programs, you won't know for sure till real world testing. Remember tho that the driver does have to break in to get the best performance from the sub.

Face, if you end up building those stereo subs, hopefully you will do a build thread as well:biggrin:

K-daugh

ok im still a little confused on volume ......LxWxH i get that part so if i have a13"x13"x13"that equals out to 2197 so how to i convert that to a ft cubed.....can someone help me on this? i was sleeping in math class in highschool sorry....

K-daugh

greyford1979 wrote: »

K-daugh, from what I have read, fatpiggy has given you a lot of great advice. Definitely tons of reading out there to learn about subs and confusing you at the same time lol. That's how I started, just doing lots of reading and one day just saying what the hell and decided to build one myself. Once you do decide what direction you want to go in we ant to see pics:biggrin: One thing you might want to do when you start and build the enclosure is test it out before you put a finish on it. This way if it doesn't sound to your liking you haven't spent all the time finishing it. No matter how good it may look performance wise using one of these programs, you won't know for sure till real world testing. Remember tho that the driver does have to break in to get the best performance from the sub.

Face, if you end up building those stereo subs, hopefully you will do a build thread as well:biggrin:

this is much harder than i originally thought ......

fatpiggy

K-daugh,
Repeat after me goggle is my friend, goggle is my friend.Then go to goggle and type in cubic feet conversion.Spend a few minutes reading and you should find a free conversion program.

The other option is to go to this page

http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/freesoft.htm

and download a program called Boxnotes its a free program.Its a subwoofer building program for dummies.Have a play with that for a few hours and you will get the idea.


Dont be lazy.We all had to do the hard yards reading the crap.

Fat piggy

K-daugh

lol ......yeeeessss i knooowww ......but mommy i dont wanna do it the hard way ......lol dont knock being lazy btw

greyford1979

Here's a link that will figure the volumes for you lol. Even has ones for odd shapes, and also factors in the thickness of the wood to be used. Don't forget to subtract the volume occupied by the driver, any bracing,plate amp if you're building an active sub or ports for a vented box to get a true internal volume once u calculate the original box volume.

http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp