Would you like a brand-new $1K universal player for $150.00 shipped?
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Yep, this Elite sure is a keeper. Well, most elites are anyway.
Only nick picking about 79avi is that it'll skips really badly scratched discs. But again, you need several thousands player to be able to read and plays really badly scratched discs.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Only nick picking about 79avi is that it'll skips really badly scratched discs. But again, you need several thousands player to be able to read and plays really badly scratched discs.
Or any $20 DVD-RW drive. -
Yep, this Elite sure is a keeper. Well, most elites are anyway.
Only nick picking about 79avi is that it'll skips really badly scratched discs. But again, you need several thousands player to be able to read and plays really badly scratched discs.
Not my experience. Even the most expensive boutique audiophile players have the same exact laser transports. Either that, or they just dump a CD/DVD ROM drive in and retrofit it (which is more common in DVD players). There are only a handful of companies making parts for the laser transports: Sony, Philips, Sanyo, and maybe a couple others.For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
Not my experience. Even the most expensive boutique audiophile players have the same exact laser transports. Either that, or they just dump a CD/DVD ROM drive in and retrofit it (which is more common in DVD players). There are only a handful of companies making parts for the laser transports: Sony, Philips, Sanyo, and maybe a couple others.
Nope, not everyone uses the same transport mechanism and laser pickup from these companies. Some are custom made transports and may be made for OEM only and you can't find a source other than the makers.
But again, it's not the average Redbook players. My redbook player can read even the worst scratched CD I've ever seen and not skipping a beat. It can read almost any CD that none of my others CDP / multi players can even read. So, there are some differences.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Or any $20 DVD-RW drive.
U really are not sure what I meant.
This is not about any $2 cables anyway. 
Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Nope, not everyone uses the same transport mechanism and laser pickup from these companies. Some are custom made transports and may be made for OEM only and you can't find a source other than the makers.
But again, it's not the average Redbook players. My redbook player can read even the worst scratched CD I've ever seen and not skipping a beat. It can read almost any CD that none of my others CDP / multi players can even read. So, there are some differences.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to say they all use the same exact transport, I meant to say they all use one of several transports that would be exactly the same as those found in affordable mainstream players.
It is well known that the smaller the company, the less resources they have to engineer and develop a laser transport from the ground up. Those systems require a very complex manufacturing technologies (laser diode manufacturing, chip manufacturing, clean rooms, etc). So much so, that I can guarantee that even if they say it is a custom transport, it probably still uses a Sony, Phillips, Hitachi, or Sanyo laser head (maybe a few others that I'm forgetting).
Even large companies like Marantz and Denon do not engineer/manufacture their own transports. They may customize the tray, the clamp, and the cover, but the actual laser and the electronics behind it will almost be from an off the shelf system from one of the very large companies mentioned above.
If you think otherwise, give me an example of a player with a truly unique custom transport and I'll look into it.For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to say they all use the same exact transport, I meant to say they all use one of several transports that would be exactly the same as those found in affordable mainstream players.
It is well known that the smaller the company, the less resources they have to engineer and develop a laser transport from the ground up. Those systems require a very complex manufacturing technologies (laser diode manufacturing, chip manufacturing, clean rooms, etc). So much so, that I can guarantee that even if they say it is a custom transport, it probably still uses a Sony, Phillips, Hitachi, or Sanyo laser head (maybe a few others that I'm forgetting).
Even large companies like Marantz and Denon do not engineer/manufacture their own transports. They may customize the tray, the clamp, and the cover, but the actual laser and the electronics behind it will almost be from an off the shelf system from one of the very large companies mentioned above.
If you think otherwise, give me an example of a player with a truly unique custom transport and I'll look into it.
From the marketing hype I think that the Cambridge Audio 650c does:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CA650C
Could be wrong though.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
If you think otherwise, give me an example of a player with a truly unique custom transport and I'll look into it.
Agreed. AFAIK all lasers and associated electronics are from one of the few you mention with Phillips being one of the best. However, the ARC CD5 I'm playing with now has a custom transport and laser mount.The CD5 relies on the substantial Philips PRO2M laser mechanism mounted to a machined aluminum I-beam with Audio Research's proprietary mounting system and damping for ultralow mechanical jitter. The I-beam, in turn, is bolted to a heavy, machined aluminum plate for maximum rigidity.
This isn't an "off the shelf transport" by any stretch of the imagination.
Pardon the off topic post.-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
Oppo BDP-83 SE
Squeezebox Touch
Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
VTL 2.5
McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
Erik Tracy wrote: »From the marketing hype I think that the Cambridge Audio 650c does:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CA650C
Could be wrong though.
I'm 99% sure that all Cambridge players use Sony transports. Maybe some slight mods to the tray/clamp, etc.However, the ARC CD5 I'm playing with now has a custom transport and laser mount.
As you point out, it still uses a Phillips transport mechanism. They only 'customize' the way it is mounted.For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
As you point out, it still uses a Phillips transport mechanism. They only 'customize' the way it is mounted.
It uses a Phillips laser. The transport is visible and certainly unlike anything else I have ever seen. I could be mistaken.-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
Oppo BDP-83 SE
Squeezebox Touch
Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
VTL 2.5
McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I didn't mean to say they all use the same exact transport, I meant to say they all use one of several transports that would be exactly the same as those found in affordable mainstream players.
It is well known that the smaller the company, the less resources they have to engineer and develop a laser transport from the ground up. Those systems require a very complex manufacturing technologies (laser diode manufacturing, chip manufacturing, clean rooms, etc). So much so, that I can guarantee that even if they say it is a custom transport, it probably still uses a Sony, Phillips, Hitachi, or Sanyo laser head (maybe a few others that I'm forgetting).
Even large companies like Marantz and Denon do not engineer/manufacture their own transports. They may customize the tray, the clamp, and the cover, but the actual laser and the electronics behind it will almost be from an off the shelf system from one of the very large companies mentioned above.
If you think otherwise, give me an example of a player with a truly unique custom transport and I'll look into it.
Well, just for one. I am willing to buy a transport and laser for Levinson.
If you have info on the ML transports, I am more than happy to listen. Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
It uses a Phillips laser. The transport is visible and certainly unlike anything else I have ever seen. I could be mistaken.
Does it look sorta like this:
If so, that's the full Pro2M transport.Well, just for one. I am willing to buy a transport and laser for Levinson.
If you have info on the ML transports, I am more than happy to listen.
I'm not sure what the newest units use, but the famous No 31.5 used a Philips CDM4 mechanism. The less expensive No 39 used a 2x CD-ROM drive.
Levinson is not a large enough company to engineer a laser mechanism system on their own. Like others, they may customize the tray, clamp, etc, but inside, it will be a familiar unit from one of the larger companies.For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
Does it look sorta like this:
If so, that's the full Pro2M transport.
I'm not sure what the newest units use, but the famous No 31.5 used a Philips CDM4 mechanism. The less expensive No 39 used a 2x CD-ROM drive.
Levinson is not a large enough company to engineer a laser mechanism system on their own. Like others, they may customize the tray, clamp, etc, but inside, it will be a familiar unit from one of the larger companies.
Sure! Levsinson and many other small companies don't produce the transports themselves. But they do highly modify the basics generic transport so you can't buy offshelf transport and laser from even the Manufacturer.
Isn't it what is Unique is about? You change a motor, you change the bearings, you change the materials, you change the sleeve, you change the drawer, you change the laser, then you have a complete custom transport made for you and it's far off from stock.
Many companies such as Classe, Krell, Levinson, CEC may give the order to Phillips, Sony, and alike to manufacture the transports for them for the cost reasons, but it's wrong to call them they are Sony / Phillips Transport. It's not the same if it's not Generic Sony transport and you can't go out and buy a replacement.
And yes, transport matters!
In fact, the maker of the transport is not a problem. The problem with the tracking errors and unable to read the discs are due to the cheap quality that most Universal players need to have for the cost reason.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
They don't modify them nearly as much as you think and they certainly don't modify/customize any of the precision stuff like the laser or servo motors. Levinson and many of the other high end units would like you to think they have all these special parts in them, but they just don't. It is beyond their engineering/manufacturing capability and the production runs are too small to have the OEMs customize anything.
And yes, you can buy an off the shelf laser/optical pickup and replace them if you know the correct part to buy and how to properly disassemble the traverse mechanism.
I'm not sure what the attached photo above is supposed to show me other than the fact that it uses the same Philips transport that is shown above (the CDM12/Pro2 series). Yes, its hidden by a cover and ML's fancy metal box, but inside, it will be an off the shelf CDM12/Pro2.
I don't think its wrong at all to call it like it is. A Philips transport is a Philips transport, no matter how fancy you make the tray, clamp, etc. Same with a Sony transport or any other.
I will agree that many of the sub-$1000 universal players use cheap transports. For one, Denon has gone away from using higher quality Hitachi transports to using cheap Sanyo transports. That is why the 3930 has gotten such a bad rap for failing lasers. However, you cannot count on the more expensive brands to be any better. There are simply not enough designs out there, especially when you are talking about ones that will read SACD as well.For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
They don't modify them nearly as much as you think and they certainly don't modify/customize any of the precision stuff like the laser or servo motors. Levinson and many of the other high end units would like you to think they have all these special parts in them, but they just don't. It is beyond their engineering/manufacturing capability and the production runs are too small to have the OEMs customize anything.
And yes, you can buy an off the shelf laser/optical pickup and replace them if you know the correct part to buy and how to properly disassemble the traverse mechanism.
I'm not sure what the attached photo above is supposed to show me other than the fact that it uses the same Philips transport that is shown above (the CDM12/Pro2 series). Yes, its hidden by a cover and ML's fancy metal box, but inside, it will be an off the shelf CDM12/Pro2.
I don't think its wrong at all to call it like it is. A Philips transport is a Philips transport, no matter how fancy you make the tray, clamp, etc. Same with a Sony transport or any other.
I am not saying one CD tranports will have all modified features. But it's where they differs and how they differs.
In fact, ML didn't say anything at all. Most of the high end companies didn't say anything at all. They are pretty tight lips about it. And how would anyone really wants to mess with the transport if they don't know what they are doing?
Now, you need to backup what you said.
Proof needed or I will have to assume you are just sprouting words of what you think.
I will do what you need to find the off the shelf transport for the ML transport shown in there. I am sure I can make lots of money on this. A lot of people have tried, I think. May be none succeeded so far yet. But who knows, you sounds like you have confidence.
Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Bill,
Don't forget if you even change the housing to kill vibrations and put extra stability to the transport assembly, you are already improving the tracking errors by a great margin.
Here is the underside of what I've shown before. I think it's more like 2x CD Rom drive.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
I am not saying one CD tranports will have all modified features. But it's where they differs and how they differs.
Now, you need to backup what you said.
Proof needed or I will have to assume you are just sprouting words of what you think.
I will do what you need to find the off the shelf transport for the ML transport shown in there. I am sure I can make lots of money on this. A lot of people have tried, I think. May be none succeeded so far yet. But who knows, you sounds like you have confidence.
You still aren't getting the point. They don't modify any part of the actual transport. It is simply beyond their capabilities.
I think you are confusing the entire CD mechanism (which includes the tray/loader mechanism, the clamp, the transport, the box, etc) with the actual transport. The transport is the laser head, the spindle motor, the servo/tracking motor, the slides, and a small frame to hold it all, usually attached by bushings.
Spend some time over at DIYaudio. Its well documented there.
Rarely does the entire CD mechanism need to be replaced. In that whole mechanism, yes, there are many ML specific parts that cannot be purchased anywhere else. However, like I said, most of the ML specific parts do not need to be replaced. It is the laser transport itself. You can take that apart and (depending on the specific unit) replace just the laser head/optical pickup, or you can replace the transport as a whole.
Since we have totally derailed this thread (sorry for that), I will just say Levinson/Proceed/Madrigal is a very DIY un-friendly company. They will not release service manuals, even on long discontinued products (like the entire Proceed line) AND, they only have 2 authorized repair facilities in the US. Both charge outrageous prices for repairs. The Service Bench will charge something like $900 to even look at one of the ML products. Even if it only needs $50-$100 in capacitors replaced (very common with the 33x series of amps), you pay $900+. For many Levinson owners, this means nothing to them. However, others do care and many are vocal about it. That is one reason why I will never buy a Madrigal product, no matter how good the reviews.For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
Bill,
Don't forget if you even change the housing to kill vibrations and put extra stability to the transport assembly, you are already improving the tracking errors by a great margin.
Here is the underside of what I've shown before. I think it's more like 2x CD Rom drive.
Look closely at the photos of the Pro2M that I linked. See the black plastic cover section the diagonal criss-cross supports on the optical head assembly. It is identical to the ML CD unit that you have shown. That is tell tale Philips Pro2 series. Unfortunately, that is still a $200+ part.
You might check around and see if the VAM1201 laser head can be fitted into the Pro2 assembly. That is <$30 part.For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
BTW, here is a useful list of CD players with transports and DACs listed. I make no claims to its accuracy, but it seems pretty close on most of thte units that I am familiar with.
http://vasiltech.nm.ru/files/cd-players/CD-Player-DAC-Transport.htmFor rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
You still aren't getting the point. They don't modify any part of the actual transport. It is simply beyond their capabilities.
I think you are confusing the entire CD mechanism (which includes the tray/loader mechanism, the clamp, the transport, the box, etc) with the actual transport. The transport is the laser head, the spindle motor, the servo/tracking motor, the slides, and a small frame to hold it all, usually attached by bushings.
Spend some time over at DIYaudio. Its well documented there.
Rarely does the entire CD mechanism need to be replaced. In that whole mechanism, yes, there are many ML specific parts that cannot be purchased anywhere else. However, like I said, most of the ML specific parts do not need to be replaced. It is the laser transport itself. You can take that apart and (depending on the specific unit) replace just the laser head/optical pickup, or you can replace the transport as a whole.
Since we have totally derailed this thread (sorry for that), I will just say Levinson/Proceed/Madrigal is a very DIY un-friendly company. They will not release service manuals, even on long discontinued products (like the entire Proceed line) AND, they only have 2 authorized repair facilities in the US. Both charge outrageous prices for repairs. The Service Bench will charge something like $900 to even look at one of the ML products. Even if it only needs $50-$100 in capacitors replaced (very common with the 33x series of amps), you pay $900+. For many Levinson owners, this means nothing to them. However, others do care and many are vocal about it. That is one reason why I will never buy a Madrigal product, no matter how good the reviews.
I think the term Transport is vaguely defined here (to me at least). I should say Transport Mechanism and then you would be clear of what I meant. It includes all CD Transport mechanism including platter, trays, loading mechanism, clamp and servo controller board.
From What I know, the parts you are referring as a Transport is known to me as "the Laser Pickup or Optical pickup assembly" which includes the laser head (laser diode), disc pickup assembly that moves the laser head that is mounted on the slides, the spindle motor, the servo motor and a small frame made of plastic of steel.
And then, there is the term "CD drive module" which I think is for the the laser / optical pickup plus the controller board but less the other mounting hardware and tray loading assembly.
The Transport mechanism is what I think includes everything to load/unload, spin and reads raw digital data less the power supply and other boards.
I am not sure who is right or wrong with these terms but I am more than happy to read if you have references regarding the correct terms.
I am also member in Diy Audio and I lurks there now and then but I don't read a lot about CD mechanism. I am more of electronics guy and usually in the Amp / preamps area of the DIY Audio.
Anyway, I don't think we are really derailing a lot considering what you and I are saying may be useful after all.
I hear what you saying about ML products and I agree to most parts. But if you haven't lifted 140LBs ML 33X amp to even check what capacitor is bad with an Oscilloscope, you'll understand why ML service center charges a lot of coins. It's almost impossible for ONE service person to do anything for that amp. You'll need at least two person to dismantle the amp and replace all the capacitors in it.
I think you misunderstand a little about ML amps and I know what you meant by $100 capacitors. $25 capacitors are the small value (1900uF 150V) electrolytic cans used in the VAS stage. It goes bad in most ML amp but it's not there is to it, there are Large Filter Caps that is 50000uF 100V and you can't buy a replacement from anyone. Actually, you can buy one if you spend like $150+ on each capacitor and minimum order is 20pcs and wait for 3-4 months.
I think ML replaces all 4 Filter caps and 4 VAS caps if you send it for cap replacement. They don't just change one bad capacitor and says it's all done.
I have personal experience with it and that's how I know about it. Other than the caps, ML amps are really build like a tank inside and out. Once you recap the amp, it'll last for another decade. Anyway, DIY friendly or not, if you know what you are looking at, it's not too hard to figure all out. It's just that you need to have patience.
I have to buy a few special tools to replace the cap in my ML 335 amp but it was well worth it.Look closely at the photos of the Pro2M that I linked. See the black plastic cover section the diagonal criss-cross supports on the optical head assembly. It is identical to the ML CD unit that you have shown. That is tell tale Philips Pro2 series. Unfortunately, that is still a $200+ part.
You might check around and see if the VAM1201 laser head can be fitted into the Pro2 assembly. That is <$30 part.
From what I can see, the laser head assembly looks the same as in the Philips Pro2 series. I also found the servo controller is generic Phillips. But don't just call it Generic Phillips yet coz the firmware on the controller board may be customized for ML. It's easy enough and it's what matters in reading raw data.
Yes, I could assemble and disassemble laser head (or) anything myself so I may just do that.BTW, here is a useful list of CD players with transports and DACs listed. I make no claims to its accuracy, but it seems pretty close on most of thte units that I am familiar with.
http://vasiltech.nm.ru/files/cd-players/CD-Player-DAC-Transport.htm
Thanks for the link. It sure is valuable data to have regardless of it's all true or not.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
I base the terms on how they are described in service manual parts lists and from parts vendors.
The head itself is almost always called the optical pickup. Transport almost always refers to the combined pieces that float (spindle/pickup/servo/rails) and sometimes also describes the controller systems. When referring to the entire loading/playback assembly, the term varies a lot. CD Mechanism, Traverse Unit, CD Assembly, etc, but not Transport.
You are right, I don't know the specifics of ML 33x amp capacitor problems, but I do know it is widespread and not cheap to fix if you send it to one of their two centers. When I said $50-$100 caps, I was talking a total value of replacing a number of bad caps. If they use some ultra expensive/hard to source caps, then I guess a realistic value should be higher. The weight of the amp shouldn't affect how much it costs to repair. Yes its a two man job to lift it up on the bench, but once its there, it doesn't take two technicians actually perform a repair.For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore... -
U really are not sure what I meant.
I thought it was quite clear. You claim you need "several thousands player" to read scratched disc's. It's simply not true. There's a reason many high priced players have computer CD-Rom or DVD-RW drives in them, they read damaged disc's very well.This is not about any $2 cables anyway.
So why bring them up?:rolleyes: -
I thought it was quite clear. You claim you need "several thousands player" to read scratched disc's. It's simply not true. There's a reason many high priced players have computer CD-Rom or DVD-RW drives in them, they read damaged disc's very well.
Not all CD Drives can be bought for $20. And saying that everything is the same is just funny to me.
Check the fingers on your hands and tell me if they are of the same length.
So why bring them up?:rolleyes:
I don't know why I bring this up. Oh wait...May be coz I think you like the idea of everything worth only a few bucks anyway.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Not all CD Drives can be bought for $20. And saying that everything is the same is just funny to me.
Where did I say they were all the same?I don't know why I bring this up. Oh wait...May be coz I think you like the idea of everything worth only a few bucks anyway.
I think many things are worth quite a few bucks, so I have no idea where you got that idea. Just because I don't think cables are worth a lot, then nothing is worth a lot? There's some backwards logic. -
I base the terms on how they are described in service manual parts lists and from parts vendors.
The head itself is almost always called the optical pickup. Transport almost always refers to the combined pieces that float (spindle/pickup/servo/rails) and sometimes also describes the controller systems. When referring to the entire loading/playback assembly, the term varies a lot. CD Mechanism, Traverse Unit, CD Assembly, etc, but not Transport.
I think I used the terms correctly till Post # 104? Anyway, it doesn't matter. As long as you know what I mean and I know what you mean. We are all good. I usually just buy the optical pickup or the parts I need. But most of the time, the players are cheap enough, I don't even care to replace anything other than getting a new one.You are right, I don't know the specifics of ML 33x amp capacitor problems, but I do know it is widespread and not cheap to fix if you send it to one of their two centers. When I said $50-$100 caps, I was talking a total value of replacing a number of bad caps. If they use some ultra expensive/hard to source caps, then I guess a realistic value should be higher. The weight of the amp shouldn't affect how much it costs to repair. Yes its a two man job to lift it up on the bench, but once its there, it doesn't take two technicians actually perform a repair.
I think it's two man job to dismantle a 33x amp. It's no kidding. You need one man to hold certain parts of the amp while you are trying to remove the side heatsinks and power transistors on them. And then, there are pure copper buzz bars. If you like to see pictures, I will upload them in the ****(embly) thread.
The filter caps used in these ML are really hard to source. I asked almost everyone but the only way I can get them is to put special order with Cornell Dublier or other major caps maker.
The VAS caps alone are $25 / pc x 4 and the filter caps are about $180 x 4 (if you order in huge quantity).
I think ML charges about 1.2K-1.4K depending on which model is it. But lucky me, my ML amp is still under warranty for a few more years and they takes care of it. I only needed to pay shipping.Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Not all CD Drives can be bought for $20.
True.Philips and I believe Esoteric both make hi end transports for the OEM market that run in the several hundred $ range.They are very substantial mostly metal assemblies but they will of course only be found in mega buck CDP's.
OOps, I see thats been covered in depth on the previous page.:) -
U really are not sure what I meant. This is not about any $2 cables anyway.
Ah, yes, but all 2 dollar cables sound the same (like poo)
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin, February 17th, 1775.
"The day that I have to give up my constitutional rights AND let some dude rub my junk...well, let's just say that it's gonna be a real bad day for the dude trying to rub my junk!!"
messiah, November 23rd, 2010 -
Yes Fred! I agree. Esoteric transports mechanism are top notch. Or may be an Accuphase.
I love to own one if I have a chance. Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin: -
Yep thats a nice piece of engineering James, looks worth a tad more than $20s.:DYes Fred! I agree. Esoteric transports mechanism are top notch. Or may be an Accuphase.
I love to own one if I have a chance.
