How to get better dynamics from the SDA SRS's?

dbaldus

I've been struggling to get better dynamics from my big boys (Original SDA SRS's) over the past few months, particularly at lower volumes (i.e., 80dB with a pink noise test). I've swapped a lot of gear in and out of my system in the past few months (a better source (the Marantz SA8003), a better preamp (the Conrad Johnson PV-7), and a different amplifier (the Anthem MCA20)) and have consistently been shocked each time to find that the "upgrade" made little to no difference whatsoever in the dynamics of my system. I've always considered my amp, the Parasound HCA-2200mkII, to be a pretty ballsy amplifier at 385 wpc into 4 ohms, but now I'm staring to wonder if maybe I need more power to get the dynamics I'm seeking?

This leads me to my question: Does a higher-powered amplifier really give you better dynamics at lower volume, or does it just add headroom if you want to turn it up louder? I don't really care about the "louder", but I definitely want the better dynamics at low volume.

Has anyone here had a similar experience with their SDA's? Any input on how to achieve better dynamics would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance...

Face

A source with a higher dynamic range could help. So would a higher wattage amp. Are your crossovers still original?

nooshinjohn

Placement is CRUCIAL! They should be somewher between 4 and 12 inches off the back wall and at least 6 feet apart and three feet off each side wall with ZERO tow-in.

Mine are 6 feet apart with 8 inches off the back wall, and spiked. If you have them placed differently, I would start there.

treitz3

dbaldus wrote:

Does a higher-powered amplifier really give you better dynamics at lower volume, or does it just add headroom if you want to turn it up louder?

Absolutely and no, but it will do that as well. Face, it looks like he's upgraded the X-overs.

dbaldus

Face wrote: »

A source with a higher dynamic range could help. So would a higher wattage amp. Are your crossovers still original?

I have upgraded the crossovers (thanks, Ben!) and replaced the tweeters with the RDO's.

dbaldus

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Placement is CRUCIAL! They should be somewher between 4 and 12 inches off the back wall and at least 6 feet apart and three feet off each side wall with ZERO tow-in.

Mine are 6 feet apart with 8 inches off the back wall, and spiked. If you have them placed differently, I would start there.

When you say "6 feet apart", do you mean 6 feet inside cabinet to inside cabinet, or tweeter to tweeter?

I currently have them 6 1/2 inches off of the back wall and about 9 1/2 feet apart (tweeter to tweeter) on 1 1/2 inch "feet" instead of spikes so I don't scratch up the hardwood floor.

I sit on the exact opposite wall, on a couch up that is placed against the wall, with my ears at 9 1/2 feet from the center line between the speakers.

Do I need to move the speakers in closer and then move myself off of the back wall or is this equilateral triangle okay?

heiney9

I have to disagree with Treitz just because you go to a higher power amp doesn't mean you gain dynamics.

Perhaps a nice single ended Class A amp. I run 30wpc and I have all the dynamics I need, espcially at lower volumes. There is no one quick fix because many times it's a matter of synergy.

I'd also recommend a medium powered tube amp from a reputable manufacturer.

Pass Labs for SS comes to mind

BAT for tubes comes to mind.

Neither are cheap, but when you want what you want sometimes you gotsta pay.

I also agree 100% with FACE, get yourself a stellar source, that's part of your bottle neck right now too.

H9

Face

Look for an amp that doubles at 4ohms.

dbaldus

Is everyone here in agreement that the dynamics will be significantly effected by room placement?

If so, I may have to move a lot of stuff around in my living room this evening...

dbaldus

heiney9 wrote: »

Perhaps a nice single ended Class A amp. I run 30wpc and I have all the dynamics I need, espcially at lower volumes. There is no one quick fix because many times it's a matter of synergy.

I'd also recommend a medium powered tube amp from a reputable manufacturer.

How does a VTL IT-85 sound? 75 wpc into 5 ohms (yeah, 5, I know, they're weird), a full tube pre and full tube amp in one chassis.

dbaldus

Lasareath wrote: »

Get a dedicated room for your Polks! they deserve it

Believe me... I've considered moving my bed out to my living room and then putting my Polks in my bedroom.

To be honest, the only reason I haven't is because my bedroom isn't big enough for the big boys and they would have to sit about 4 feet apart from each other to get the proper distance from the side walls

nooshinjohn

dbaldus wrote: »

When you say "6 feet apart", do you mean 6 feet inside cabinet to inside cabinet, or tweeter to tweeter?

I currently have them 6 1/2 inches off of the back wall and about 9 1/2 feet apart (tweeter to tweeter) on 1 1/2 inch "feet" instead of spikes so I don't scratch up the hardwood floor.

I sit on the exact opposite wall, on a couch up that is placed against the wall, with my ears at 9 1/2 feet from the center line between the speakers.

Do I need to move the speakers in closer and then move myself off of the back wall or is this equilateral triangle okay?

What is the distance off the side walls?

dbaldus

nooshinjohn wrote: »

What is the distance off the side walls?

Right speaker - 3'
Left speaker - 2 1/2' of wall, 3' doorway, 1' wall (6 1/2' total) (refer to the excellent picture below for what this looks like, haha)

__ {doorway} _____[SDA]
|
|

nooshinjohn

snap off a pic or two of the front soundstage...

heiney9

How far off the wall do you have them? They should be about 6-12" and most find the closer to the back wall the better the bass/dynamics.

jm1

Since you may have ruled out the equipment aspect of the issue, how are the acoustics of the room?

Try clapping your hands and listen to how it decays. Lots of echo? Walk around the room and listen to the bass. Is it fairly even? Have someone talk to you where the speakers are located. Does the sonic characteristics change as you move about the room? These should give you some indication if acoustics might be the issue.

FYI: the more acoustic treatment I incorporate into my room acoustics, the better the clarity and dynamics.

dbaldus

heiney9 wrote: »

how far off the wall do you have them? They should be about 6-12" and most find the closer to the back wall the better the bass/dynamics.

6 1/2"

steveinaz

If you're talking "dynamics" as in "dynamic range"...good luck with todays recordings. If it isn't in the source software, you CANNOT create it; anyone who says you can, doesn't understand dynamic range.

If you mean "headroom" then you need more amplifier (more as in current capability), or run 2 amps bridged...

reeltrouble1

I believe you should consider a different speaker.

RT1

dbaldus

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I believe you should consider a different speaker.

RT1

Really?

Could you elaborate?

megasat16

dbaldus wrote: »

I've been struggling to get better dynamics from my big boys (Original SDA SRS's) over the past few months, particularly at lower volumes (i.e., 80dB with a pink noise test). I've swapped a lot of gear in and out of my system in the past few months (a better source (the Marantz SA8003), a better preamp (the Conrad Johnson PV-7), and a different amplifier (the Anthem MCA20)) and have consistently been shocked each time to find that the "upgrade" made little to no difference whatsoever in the dynamics of my system. I've always considered my amp, the Parasound HCA-2200mkII, to be a pretty ballsy amplifier at 385 wpc into 4 ohms, but now I'm staring to wonder if maybe I need more power to get the dynamics I'm seeking?

This leads me to my question: Does a higher-powered amplifier really give you better dynamics at lower volume, or does it just add headroom if you want to turn it up louder? I don't really care about the "louder", but I definitely want the better dynamics at low volume.

Has anyone here had a similar experience with their SDA's? Any input on how to achieve better dynamics would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance...

I think I can hear you saying! But you are playing with the gears of the similar caliber so you'll hear almost so so experience. IMO, what you've been doing is known as lateral move. There isn't much to gain in there dynamically or sonically. You need to step up to

1. Higher quality source
2. Higher quality preamp
3. Higher Power Amplifier with higher voltage gains (check the amp specs for voltage gains)

As far as dynamic range goes, it's already been recorded on the media so you can't do much. But I think you can buy dynamic range expander and they are available in commercial (pro audio) use or for home use. I think Pioneer used to make them for home audio applications.

You may also use the TONE control buttons to further enhance or equalizer if you don't shy of using one or they are available in your preamp or source. Some of the old preamps with "LOUDNESS" button also helps for dynamic range at lower volume. It boost some frequencies so you feel like there is better dynamics.

Or Like RT1 said, simply replace your SDA. You are doing something wrong with it (like placement) or SDA isn't for you.

Also, the room is part of the equation so play with placement and install some in-room treatments.

megasat16

heiney9 wrote: »

Perhaps a nice single ended Class A amp. I run 30wpc and I have all the dynamics I need, espcially at lower volumes.
H9

Aww...you must mean the Aleph 3 or Aleph 30.

Don't you think Aleph P is calling your name?

reeltrouble1

What type of music do you enjoy?

I used SRS and had my fun times with them, they liked power and sound best at volume. The gear you are using outside the CJ, particularily the amplifiers, they also sound best at volume, just has to do with design, to build a rig which is involving at 80 db is no light hearted task but commendable. I would begin to research some of the high effeciency speakers, flea amps, wide freq. things. MadMax has had a bit of success and can be helpful.

If I am reading wrong then I am, but it seems you are seeking something a bit more delicate or refined sounding yet with weight.

Keep in mind the words of Gordon Holt, there is no perfect piece of gear.

RT1

treitz3

heiney9 wrote: »

I have to disagree with Treitz just because you go to a higher power amp doesn't mean you gain dynamics.

What? You disagree with me? Well, I never.......I mean, that's like un-American or something. :eek:



The way I look at it is this. Dynamics when it comes to music is variation in force or intensity, at least in terms of the dictionary. When I switched from a lower power amplifier to a higher power amplifier, the first thing I noticed at low volumes was a variation [change] in the scope of frequencies heard. Bass, which was non-existent with the lower power amplifier, came into play [more force at same volume level] at lower volumes with the higher powered amplifier. On the same token, the dynamics of the top end and the texture of voices, instruments, etc. also came into play with the higher powered amplifier.

That said, it is my conclusion that there definitely is a variation of force or intensity when the volume is at a lower level and the only thing that has changed is switching from a lower powered amplifier to a higher powered amplifier [volume unchanged]. If there is more force on the lower end of the frequency spectrum and you can actually feel the bass at lower levels with the higher powered amplifier, then one would logically think that there is a variation of force or intensity. In other words, increased dynamics from what you had prior to adding the higher powered amplifier.

heiney9

That *can* be true, but it highly depends on the amplifier. I had the opposite effect going from 125wpc to 30wpc. But, the 30wpc amp is a much better design w/ better parts and a different type of amp in that it's single ended Class A vs. push/pull A/B.

My only point has always been that just upping the wattage doesn't necessarily get you there. It's really about design, parts and execution more than raw power. It always has been, and always will be in this hobby. Then add the synergy factor, which can be a **** as you know.

Simply telling him to go out and buy more power is poor advice.

H9

Face

How come my Class A F5 sounded like a limp **** compared to my Class D W4S ST-500?

treitz3

heiney9 wrote: »

That *can* be true, but it highly depends on the amplifier. I had the opposite effect going from 125wpc to 30wpc. But, the 30wpc amp is a much better design w/ better parts and a different type of amp in that it's single ended Class A vs. push/pull A/B.

My only point has always been that just upping the wattage doesn't necessarily get you there. It's really about design, parts and execution more than raw power. It always has been, and always will be in this hobby. Then add the synergy factor, which can be a **** as you know.

That, we can definitely agree on.

heiney9 wrote: »

Simply telling him to go out and buy more power is poor advice.

Well now, I didn't say that. I just answered his question. I will concede that I could have clarified a bit more but with most questions presented on this board, there are no set answers due to things like what "power" means to him -vs- what it means for me or you. He may be thinking higher watts, I may be thinking higher current while at the same time, you may be thinking Class A, A/B. Others [like me] might also be thinking lower watts but get into tubes.

I just wanted to answer his question, offering my experience, without writing a novel to all of the variables he could entertain.

heiney9

Face wrote: »

How come my Class A F5 sounded like a limp **** compared to my Class D W4S ST-500?

Because it was a clone and the First Watt stuff is expressly designed for simple driver, high efficiency speakers, not typical multiple driver box speakers. First Watt stuff is a niche product made specifically for a particular type of speaker, as you know. About 100 pieces of each are ever produced.

The exception being the Aleph J and the new Aleph M2 which are designed for more conventional speakers. The F5 while having decent output was never designed to run large multiple driver speakers.

H9

P.s. I dunno Mike, I've run my Aleph 30 on my SDA's and have yet to reach the limit of the amp. I've run the Aleph 30 on a pair of LSi 15's in a room twice the size of mine and at very high volume we could get it to sound just a bit strained. I've run in on my brothers somewhat power hungry Revel F50 full range floor standers to a very high level with no issues at all.

I have more dynamics than I ever thought possible at all levels, low, mid and high output. The low level detail and slam is impressive. The only thing I would change is the bass, it can be a tad bit soft at times as it typical of all single ended class A amp types.

heiney9

treitz3 wrote: »

That, we can definitely agree on.

Well now, I didn't say that. I just answered his question. I will concede that I could have clarified a bit more but with most questions presented on this board, there are no set answers due to things like what "power" means to him -vs- what it means for me or you. He may be thinking higher watts, I may be thinking higher current while at the same time, you may be thinking Class A, A/B. Others [like me] might also be thinking lower watts but get into tubes.

I just wanted to answer his question, offering my experience, without writing a novel to all of the variables he could entertain.

I agree, there are no simple answers to his question or for this hobby.

H9

Face

I know, I'm just breaking your horns.

Although, watts aside, W4S's amps have better dynamics than anything else I've tried so far, tube, SS, A/B, A, etc...

heiney9

Love to hear it sometime.