Yet another car trouble thread...

2

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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,384
    edited July 2010
    Face wrote: »
    Drop the car off to someone who knows what they're doing?

    Not a bad idea on that, but the only place that will work on the car where I live is a $350.00 tow bill away.:(
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  • Polkersince85
    Polkersince85 Posts: 2,883
    edited July 2010
    Did you recently clean the engine with a high presssure hose/soap? Those things give the connectors all kinds of issues.
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  • Fongolio
    Fongolio Posts: 3,516
    edited July 2010
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    The MAP sensor and the MAF sensor are one and the same.

    I'm not sure that's acurate John. My '89 IROC-Z has both. Manifold Absolute Preasure (MAP) and Mass Air Flow (MAF). Your Jag of course may not have both.

    One part that gave me huge trouble with rough idle and poor performance (including running rich) was the Idle Air Control unit (IAC). It sits on the side of my throttle body unit. After replacing it and setting it properly that problems were solved. I don't know if you have one but it's worth looking for.

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  • concealer404
    concealer404 Posts: 7,440
    edited July 2010
    MAP =! MAF

    MAF is a flapper. MAP is not.

    Anyways... is this the same car that had the misfortune of being started with an oil fill nozzle stuck in a head?
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,384
    edited July 2010
    concealer404 wrote: »
    MAP =! MAF

    MAF is a flapper. MAP is not.

    Anyways... is this the same car that had the misfortune of being started with an oil fill nozzle stuck in a head?

    Bingo! I doubt that is the reason for the current troubles however.
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    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • sandworms
    sandworms Posts: 1,043
    edited July 2010
    hey nj, I've been in the biz long enough ( 30 years ) ase master tech yadda yadda, to know that you've thrown enough parts at the problem to warrant spending the money for a professional diag. now your P0446 code is purge related meaning you could have a purge valve stuck open allowing raw fuel into the intake and that would screw up your stfl ( short term fuel level ) and cause some poor driveabilty, in turn giving you your o2 codes. you need to look at purge operation and if you don't see anything go to a jag man or as face said, cut the cord
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,384
    edited July 2010
    sandworms wrote: »
    hey nj, I've been in the biz long enough ( 30 years ) ase master tech yadda yadda, to know that you've thrown enough parts at the problem to warrant spending the money for a professional diag. now your P0446 code is purge related meaning you could have a purge valve stuck open allowing raw fuel into the intake and that would screw up your stfl ( short term fuel level ) and cause some poor driveabilty, in turn giving you your o2 codes. you need to look at purge operation and if you don't see anything go to a jag man or as face said, cut the cord

    Are you saying I should look at the evap purge system first?
    I am going to look at that first thing in the morning...


    Thanks!

    John
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • wz2p7j
    wz2p7j Posts: 840
    edited July 2010
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    The MAP sensor and the MAF sensor are one and the same. I believe we are just using american vs. european lingo here. The MAP/MAF is new. There are 4 O2 sensors on my car, and the first two are used to adjust the air/fuel mix. The back two monitor efficiency of the catalytics. It appears the two in front of the cats have the ability to play all kinds of havoc with regards to fuel flow.

    What I have learned also opens the possibility of bad catalytic converters.

    You guys are great!

    Negative, John. MAP (if you have one) is NOT the same as MAF. MAP is manifold absolute pressure, a fancy name for vacuum. The MAP sensor is usually located somewhere on the intake manifold.

    MAF is mass airflow, a reading of how much air your engine is sucking. It's usually inline somewhere with your air filter box and throttle body. It's basically a hollow tube with a sensor in it.

    Both MAP and MAF tell your engine control module things about load and such.

    By the way, I used to work on a technical assistance hot line for a major automotive manufacturer (not Jag). Dealership technicians used to call us to help fix the hard stuff, we didn't get the easy stuff. I can tell you I got 2-3 calls a week on the exact problem you have and it was always the MAP sensor high voltage or improper voltage. Usually MAP voltage is low at idle and high under accel or load (not sure about Jag).

    Granted it wasn't Jag but engine control systems are fairly common from manuf to manuf. I'm also not sure if you have a MAP but I did Google it and find a part number for a MAP sensor for your year and model.

    So you think it's O2 sensors, eh? Could be but both right and left bank went wonky at EXACTLY the same time? Seems far fetched to me.

    Good luck fixing your problem. :D:D

    Chris
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  • wz2p7j
    wz2p7j Posts: 840
    edited July 2010
    John, I forgot about your evap code. The canister purge solenoid CAN cause an air/fuel mixture problem. The canister purge solenoid is pulse width modulated and controlled by the ECM. If it sticks open, it can allow raw fuel to get sucked into the engine resulting in a rich mixture, driveability problems, etc.

    But I don't think what Sandman is saying is correct. You have a vent control circuit code, not a canister purge problem. The vent is actually located on your gas tank. It is used to seal off the gas tank when the engine runs certain diagnostics.

    I just don't see it causing the problem you have. Sandman, did I miss something?

    Chris
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  • sandworms
    sandworms Posts: 1,043
    edited July 2010
    Yes wz, my initial search on google ( as I don't have jag service info ) revealed purge fault data, jumped the gun on that one, but now that I look at the universal description for a P0446 at my dealership, it is a vent control issue, which, in theory, won't effect a rich mixture. So being I am of little to no help, I will leave you in better hands ie....
    wz, if he did tech assist work he will definetly lead you in the right direction. I'll be watching this to see what you find, wish I was more help, but doing this crap long enough teaches me I will never "know it all" and I don't wanna steer you in the wrong direction
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,384
    edited July 2010
    If the vent is stuck in an open condition, it will vent fumes into the intake and result in a rich mix. I am going to persue that first and then go from there. It also appears that the XK8/XJR have a MAP sensor... the Vanden Plas does not.
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    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,788
    edited July 2010
    Shoot the car and move on, John.
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  • wz2p7j
    wz2p7j Posts: 840
    edited July 2010
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    If the vent is stuck in an open condition, it will vent fumes into the intake and result in a rich mix. I am going to persue that first and then go from there. It also appears that the XK8/XJR have a MAP sensor... the Vanden Plas does not.

    If the canister purge solenoid is stuck open it will vent fumes into the intake. Your code is for the vent solenoid, not canister purge. The vent solenoid is on or near the gas tank. Canister purge solenoid is usually in the engine compartment somewhere.

    Let me know how you make out.

    Chris
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2010
    This would solve all your problems.

    car20on20fire.jpg
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • sandworms
    sandworms Posts: 1,043
    edited July 2010
    wz2p7j wrote: »
    If the canister purge solenoid is stuck open it will vent fumes into the intake. Your code is for the vent solenoid, not canister purge. The vent solenoid is on or near the gas tank. Canister purge solenoid is usually in the engine compartment somewhere.

    Let me know how you make out.

    Chris

    yes, the vent valve ( which is in the normally open state ) will only be used for leak testing purposes ie... your ecm will command it shut for the evap leak test, so it is not a component that allow fuel into the intake, only the purge can do that. The evaporative emissions system prevents hydrocarbon (HC) vapors from the fuel tank from escaping into the atmosphere where they could form photochemical smog. Gasoline vapors are collected in the charcoal canister. The Canister Close Valve (CCV) closes off the air inlet into the canister for leak detection of the evaporative emission system. The CCV also prevents fuel vapors from escaping from the canister into the atmosphere. When the engine purges the HC vapors from the canister, the clean air comes into the canister through the canister air-filter and the CCV
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  • sandworms
    sandworms Posts: 1,043
    edited July 2010
    Face wrote: »
    This would solve all your problems.

    car20on20fire.jpg

    you kill me mikey
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  • wz2p7j
    wz2p7j Posts: 840
    edited July 2010
    John, three ideas for you:

    1) Does someone have a scan tool where you can monitor MAP voltage and report back here?

    2) I haven't done this for a while but I believe if you disconnect the MAP sensor your engine control module will "see" low voltage (low load not rich) and/or default to the MAF to determine load on the engine.

    3) Conversely, disconnect the MAF sensor to see if that changes the condition. I know it's new but you never know.

    You will flip a code when you disconnect either of the sensors but try it and see if your rich mixture/driveability problem goes away.

    Chris
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  • wz2p7j
    wz2p7j Posts: 840
    edited July 2010
    sandworms wrote: »
    yes, the vent valve ( which is in the normally open state ) will only be used for leak testing purposes ie... your ecm will command it shut for the evap leak test, so it is not a component that allow fuel into the intake, only the purge can do that. The evaporative emissions system prevents hydrocarbon (HC) vapors from the fuel tank from escaping into the atmosphere where they could form photochemical smog. Gasoline vapors are collected in the charcoal canister. The Canister Close Valve (CCV) closes off the air inlet into the canister for leak detection of the evaporative emission system. The CCV also prevents fuel vapors from escaping from the canister into the atmosphere. When the engine purges the HC vapors from the canister, the clean air comes into the canister through the canister air-filter and the CCV

    Yep, different terms (I'm an old GM guy) but exactly the right concept.

    Chris
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,384
    edited July 2010
    wz2p7j wrote: »
    John, three ideas for you:

    1) Does someone have a scan tool where you can monitor MAP voltage and report back here?

    According to Jaguar, there is no MAP on non-supercharged cars, but I am still waiting for word from a tech to confirm this.
    wz2p7j wrote: »
    2) I haven't done this for a while but I believe if you disconnect the MAP sensor your engine control module will "see" low voltage (low load not rich) and/or default to the MAF to determine load on the engine.

    3) Conversely, disconnect the MAF sensor to see if that changes the condition. I know it's new but you never know.

    The car shuts off when the MAF is unplugged.
    wz2p7j wrote: »
    You will flip a code when you disconnect either of the sensors but try it and see if your rich mixture/driveability problem goes away.

    Chris
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    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • wz2p7j
    wz2p7j Posts: 840
    edited July 2010
    Hey John:

    Here's a MAP sensor for your car right here:

    http://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/2000/jaguar/xj8/fuel_injection/map_sensor.html

    Did you disconnect MAF while the car was running? Or disconnect it while the car was off and then attempt re-start?

    Please confirm your engine type and I'll look up some stuff while I'm at my (automotive) shop tomorrow.

    Chris
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,384
    edited July 2010
    It is a Jaguar designed and built 4.0 liter(3996cc) V-8 @290hp...


    The MAF was disconnected when the car was running.

    Where would this sensor be located?
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2010
    On the cars I've owned, on the top or back of the intake manifold.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • wz2p7j
    wz2p7j Posts: 840
    edited July 2010
    Hey John,

    The MAP usually measures vacuum off of the intake manifold somewhere.

    And I'm not saying disconnecting it will provide a definitive answer. I used to work with techs that had scan tools so we would just look at the scan tool reading.

    But disconnecting it won't cost you anything either, so give it a try (if you can find it) :D:D

    I'll do a little more research when I'm at the shop tomorrow and maybe I can offer something more (like where the little buggar is).

    In the mean time, maybe you can try to find someone who can scan the readings on your car? :D:D

    Chris
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,384
    edited July 2010
    wz2p7j wrote: »
    Hey John,


    In the mean time, maybe you can try to find someone who can scan the readings on your car? :D:D

    Chris

    I have a scanner, just let me know what data you will need.

    I owe you guys big time.
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    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • wz2p7j
    wz2p7j Posts: 840
    edited July 2010
    John, will it read the data stream or just codes? If it will read the data stream I really need MAP voltage at idle and under load like heavy acceleration.

    I strongly suspect MAP but I could be wrong. Let's start there and then move on.

    Chris
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,384
    edited July 2010
    OK... I will get a read on them and get back...

    *EDIT*


    I'm back... the car gives me data on fuel trim, MAF, and even the rear O2 sensors, but not on the MAP.
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    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • sandworms
    sandworms Posts: 1,043
    edited July 2010
    not to discount chris's maf/map theory but I still think the original code has to be the contributing factor even if it should not have caused so much driveability issues. Your vent valve in theory could be stuck open, which, when your ecm is commanding it closed will cause the intake ( through purge operation ) to draw raw fuel into your cannister, possibly flooding it. If you could ck the lines at the cannister or even tip the cannister to see if it is saturated you may find your problem, or even block off the purge feed to the engine and see if it stabilizes.
    Todd
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  • wz2p7j
    wz2p7j Posts: 840
    edited July 2010
    sandworms wrote: »
    not to discount chris's maf/map theory but I still think the original code has to be the contributing factor even if it should not have caused so much driveability issues. Your vent valve in theory could be stuck open, which, when your ecm is commanding it closed will cause the intake ( through purge operation ) to draw raw fuel into your cannister, possibly flooding it. If you could ck the lines at the cannister or even tip the cannister to see if it is saturated you may find your problem, or even block off the purge feed to the engine and see if it stabilizes.
    Todd

    Yeah Todd, I thought about that. When the ecm runs it's test it closes the vent valve and then opens the purge valve to draw a vacuum on the system. But would the vacuum drawn suck fuel into the canister or just suck air from the open vent valve?

    John, as mentioned quick check is to see if the canister is flooded or disconnect (and plug) the line from the canister to the engine.

    Did all of the codes start at the same time or did you drive a while with the light on before the car started acting up?

    Chris
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2010
    <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cMqLuNSPRTQ&hl=en_US&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cMqLuNSPRTQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&quot; type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,384
    edited July 2010
    I swear this car is possessed or something. The troubles it was having this past week have gone away without a trace.... Only the PHANTOM knows.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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