PSW505 Subwoofer bottoming out?

BeefJerky

mystik610 wrote: »

Room response probably has a lot to do with it....if the subwoofer and/or listening area are sitting in a null area in the room, the roll-off at the subsonic frequencies will be further accentuated, as the lower frequencies are more susceptible to standing waves.

This is accentuated even further if the subwoofer is too small for a room, and the mains are actually overpowering the sub. At the end of the day, I think that's the OP's problem...given his listening levels, the sub simply isn't powerful enough. One of audyssey's main goals is to level match the subwoofer with the main speakers...if there's any kind of distortion with audyssey's default settings, then the sub flat out can't keep up with the mains given the size of the room. If the sub is running a little hot trying to play the mid/upper bass frequencies, it will run very hot trying to play the lower frequencies...couple that with some boosting of the lower frequencies by audyssey, and you can see why he's having problems.

Those are good points, especially the one about the positioning of the sub. I wonder if the OP has tried moving the sub to different places in his listening area. If I'm not mistaken, a good way to find good sub placement to avoid nulls is to temporarily place the sub where the listener sits. Play some test tones and walk/crawl around the room until an area is found that is the loudest, or at least not a quiet/null area. Once that area is found, move the sub to that area and rerun Audyssey.

xxmastermushxx

Edit: Here's pictures of the room, and setup: New setup pictures.pdf

I'll try moving the sub around to see, I want to point one thing out. I tried the 8hz scene in LOTR when the ring drops. I tried the scene with DynamicEQ off, and the sub didn't bottom out. I tinkered around a little in my receiver on manual, and set the sub from -6.0 to -9.5 with DynamicEQ on, and the sub doesn't seem to bottom out anymore on that scene.

The fronts I'm using are very high end, they're Dahlquist DQ-10's, my dad bought them back a while ago, they were top of the line, and I believe still are. They have five speakers in each box, there's a 10" sub that can go down to 40hz, but is rolled of at 100Hz to eliminate any chance of distortion.

If you didn't see from the other post, the room is 19X18 with a nine foot ceiling. The room is open to the hallway, kitchen, and living room. The front speaker face away from the hallway.

kuntasensei

One of the issues I've found with Audyssey is that if the sub has any subsonic filter of its own or if your subwoofer trim is too far off from 0 during the calibration, it tends to boost the low end when it shouldn't. Here are the two issues and possible resolutions:

1) If the sub has a subsonic filter dial (I don't believe yours does - it's probably set to soft-bottom at a certain frequency and has its own rolloff; the whump sound you're hearing is probably soft bottoming to protect the driver from striking the former), then you need to disable it before running Audyssey, then set it back post-Audyssey. In my setup, my SVS is passive with an ART-351 EQ in place just as a subsonic filter at 18Hz. When I run Audyssey with that 18Hz filter in place, it tries to boost a little near 20Hz and ends up sounding overly bloated. Dialing it down to 5Hz, running Audyssey, then setting it back to 18Hz does the trick every time for me.

2) If your subwoofer trim is too far in the negative range post-Audyssey, you may have the gain on the sub too high. Turn it down slightly, re-run Audyssey, and repeat until you get the subwoofer trim near 0 post-Audyssey. Sounds silly, but in my experience, it makes a difference.

3) Not mentioned above, but pay close attention to your mic positions during Audyssey. Do not place the mic within a foot of your back wall or below the height of your seat backs (since the reflection/diffusion of the seat itself will affect the equalization). Also, make sure you do any positions past the first 3 about a foot or so further into the room to give Audyssey a better idea of the overall bass response as you move away from the room boundaries. This will help mitigate issues on the low end of the frequency range.

All that said, given your room size, you definitely should consider a bigger subwoofer. There's no way you're going to get the output you're demanding out of the 505. A subsonic filter would definitely stop the soft-bottom/port unloading that you're hearing with deep bass, but... what fun is that?

xxmastermushxx

kuntasensei wrote: »

One of the issues I've found with Audyssey is that if the sub has any subsonic filter of its own or if your subwoofer trim is too far off from 0 during the calibration, it tends to boost the low end when it shouldn't. Here are the two issues and possible resolutions:

1) If the sub has a subsonic filter dial (I don't believe yours does - it's probably set to soft-bottom at a certain frequency and has its own rolloff; the whump sound you're hearing is probably soft bottoming to protect the driver from striking the former), then you need to disable it before running Audyssey, then set it back post-Audyssey. In my setup, my SVS is passive with an ART-351 EQ in place just as a subsonic filter at 18Hz. When I run Audyssey with that 18Hz filter in place, it tries to boost a little near 20Hz and ends up sounding overly bloated. Dialing it down to 5Hz, running Audyssey, then setting it back to 18Hz does the trick every time for me.

2) If your subwoofer trim is too far in the negative range post-Audyssey, you may have the gain on the sub too high. Turn it down slightly, re-run Audyssey, and repeat until you get the subwoofer trim near 0 post-Audyssey. Sounds silly, but in my experience, it makes a difference.

3) Not mentioned above, but pay close attention to your mic positions during Audyssey. Do not place the mic within a foot of your back wall or below the height of your seat backs (since the reflection/diffusion of the seat itself will affect the equalization). Also, make sure you do any positions past the first 3 about a foot or so further into the room to give Audyssey a better idea of the overall bass response as you move away from the room boundaries. This will help mitigate issues on the low end of the frequency range.

All that said, given your room size, you definitely should consider a bigger subwoofer. There's no way you're going to get the output you're demanding out of the 505. A subsonic filter would definitely stop the soft-bottom/port unloading that you're hearing with deep bass, but... what fun is that?

So your saying to adjust the gain (volume control I assume) to the point that Audyssey says the sub-woofers at 0 Db? I did that once, and then read online how to setup a sub-woofer for Audyssey, and they said to set the gain at 12 O'clock. So I did, and have done so since, Audyssey currently sets it at -6.0 Db. I'll try what you said, and report back.

I tried putting my subwoofer at the main listening position, and playing a bass track, while crawling around the room. I really couldn't hear that much of a difference, if any.

kuntasensei

-6dB isn't too bad a trim, but ideally you want it as close to 0 as possible. Probably not the source of your issues though. I would concentrate more on your mic positions during Audyssey's setup.

But again, from looking at your pictures, I think you're just asking too much of the 505. A subsonic filter would help prevent the chuffing/soft-bottoming... but ultimately, you're asking way too much of that subwoofer by expecting it to reach decent levels in that size room.

If your AVR lets you adjust the reference for Dynamic EQ (not all of them do), try setting it to 5 or 10dB and see if that helps. That might cut the low end boost that Dynamic EQ gives it by just enough to help, while still giving you the benefit of the boosted surround presence.

xxmastermushxx

kuntasensei wrote: »

-6dB isn't too bad a trim, but ideally you want it as close to 0 as possible. Probably not the source of your issues though. I would concentrate more on your mic positions during Audyssey's setup.

But again, from looking at your pictures, I think you're just asking too much of the 505. A subsonic filter would help prevent the chuffing/soft-bottoming... but ultimately, you're asking way too much of that subwoofer by expecting it to reach decent levels in that size room.

If your AVR lets you adjust the reference for Dynamic EQ (not all of them do), try setting it to 5 or 10dB and see if that helps. That might cut the low end boost that Dynamic EQ gives it by just enough to help, while still giving you the benefit of the boosted surround presence.

Well I moved the sub, where it originally was, was actually null. I re-calibrated and turned the sub's gain down, now Audyssey made it +4.5, is that bad for Audyssey to boost the sub? I'll try to get it to zero.

It's not my audyssey positions, I'm pretty sure of that, and I don't understand why you'd say I'm expecting too much from my sub. It's Audyssey that's expecting too much.

I can't adjust DynamicEQ, but I can keep DynamicEQ and turn down the sub's gain in the receiver. I personally think a High Pass Filter would still be the best, if my sub rolls off at 28Hz anyway, I could have the HPF filter out after 25Hz.

anamorphic96

I'm a little late to this thread but thought I would add my two cents.

1. The room is way to big for that sub. You should really have two. Since the 505 is pretty cheap you could easily get a second one.

2. Always leave Dynamic EQ off when turning up movies. It has a habit of causing subs to bottom out. Dynamic EQ is supposed to compensate for this by lowering the sub level as the volume gets higher, however it still tends to cause problems in my experience. It's a great function at lower listening levels or helping out an anemic sound mix. But always turn it off when cranking up movies. It seems you have discovered this, as the sub stopped bottoming out when you shut it off.

3. A high pass filter would definitely help as well. 25hz sounds like a good choice. If you can't get a 25hz filter go with 20hz with a 12 or higher decibel roll off.

4. Set all channels to 75db and maybe back off the sub a couple decibels to keep things in check.

The above suggestions should help prevent the sub from bottoming out.

xxmastermushxx

anamorphic96 wrote: »

I'm a little late to this thread but thought I would add my two cents.

1. The room is way to big for that sub. You should really have two. Since the 505 is pretty cheap you could easily get a second one.

2. Always leave Dynamic EQ off when turning up movies. It has a habit of causing subs to bottom out. Dynamic EQ is supposed to compensate for this by lowering the sub level as the volume gets higher, however it still tends to cause problems in my experience. It's a great function at lower listening levels or helping out an anemic sound mix. But always turn it off when cranking up movies. It seems you have discovered this, as the sub stopped bottoming out when you shut it off.

3. A high pass filter would definitely help as well. 25hz sounds like a good choice. If you can't get a 25hz filter go with 20hz with a 12 or higher decibel roll off.

4. Set all channels to 75db and maybe back off the sub a couple decibels to keep things in check.

The above suggestions should help prevent the sub from bottoming out.

No problem joining late, you're always welcome!

I'd love to get a second PSW505, but money's tight. Can't even get a center channel...yet.

My dad and me will just make a High Pass Filter, he's an electrical engineer, so this is a piece of cake to him. We can make the frequency roll off where ever we want.

Wouldn't I loose some of the surround enhancements if I turn off DynamicEQ? When I get the high pass filter working, should I still turn DynamicEQ off at high volumes?

dorokusai

Forget EQ....just run your rears hot....easy.

anamorphic96

xxmastermushxx wrote: »

No problem joining late, you're always welcome!

I'd love to get a second PSW505, but money's tight. Can't even get a center channel...yet.

My dad and me will just make a High Pass Filter, he's an electrical engineer, so this is a piece of cake to him. We can make the frequency roll off where ever we want.

Wouldn't I loose some of the surround enhancements if I turn off DynamicEQ? When I get the high pass filter working, should I still turn DynamicEQ off at high volumes?

IMO no. I have always felt Dynamic EQ boosts the surrounds too much. I would just run things without the Dynamic EQ. If you feel the surrounds are lacking then boost them a bit. Keep in mind I'm all about playing things back at industry specifications or as close to that as possible. I like to hear what the artist intended me to hear. So I don't use the function when watching movies. However I have found it to be a useful feature for TV shows, especially older ones, and lower volume listening. Dynamic EQ is a nice feature. It just needs to be used in an appropriate manner.

kuntasensei

anamorphic96 wrote: »

I'm a little late to this thread but thought I would add my two cents.

1. The room is way to big for that sub. You should really have two. Since the 505 is pretty cheap you could easily get a second one.

2. Always leave Dynamic EQ off when turning up movies. It has a habit of causing subs to bottom out. Dynamic EQ is supposed to compensate for this by lowering the sub level as the volume gets higher, however it still tends to cause problems in my experience. It's a great function at lower listening levels or helping out an anemic sound mix. But always turn it off when cranking up movies. It seems you have discovered this, as the sub stopped bottoming out when you shut it off.

3. A high pass filter would definitely help as well. 25hz sounds like a good choice. If you can't get a 25hz filter go with 20hz with a 12 or higher decibel roll off.

4. Set all channels to 75db and maybe back off the sub a couple decibels to keep things in check.

The above suggestions should help prevent the sub from bottoming out.

I have to politely disagree with a few things:

1. Adding a second 505 will only get him 3dB additional headroom. If he's hearing the issue at well below normal listening levels, 3dB isn't going to help much. Ultimately, the real fix will be a more capable sub to fill that big room.

2. Dynamic EQ actually aims for flat response at 0/reference, then changes the equalization of the sub as you turn volume down below reference. It doesn't change the subwoofer channel globally - it boosts the audible range of bass and actually tapers deep response off slightly as the equalization changes away from reference. If Dynamic EQ is causing the sub to bottom, it is typically an issue with mic placement with the initial setup that causes it to boost the lowest frequencies too much, and the only fix is to redo Audyssey with more critical mic placement. With a room his size that has the seating more toward the middle of the room, it would be a good idea for him to do 3 mic positions on the seats themselves using a tripod, then do a couple of positions a foot or two BEHIND the seats. Most rooms have the seating nearer to a wall so you get the benefit of boundary-induced gain. Perhaps the OP can weigh in on what he's using for mic positions (and whether he's using a tripod, which is an absolute NECESSITY for Audyssey).

3. I agree with you on the filter.

4. Another option he has, since he doesn't have the "reference" setting that Dynamic EQ comes with on newer AVRs, is to alter the reference point manually. It will mean that 0 won't necessarily equal reference on the dial if he does it, but it would help mitigate excessive boost as he moves below 0. To do this, he would set all channels to 70dB so that reference would actually be +5 relative on the volume. What this does is cause the volume dial to be 5dB higher for the same listening level he had before, which changes the amount of equalization that Dynamic EQ applies at that particular point.

Dynamic EQ does more to the surrounds than just boost their level globally. It actually alters the equalization in very specific ranges to increase surround presence, so it isn't quite a matter of just boosting the rears slightly to achieve the same effect sans Dynamic EQ.

xxmastermushxx, where are your mic placements for Audyssey? This may be just a simple case of needing to shift things around so it gets a better reading of your room's acoustics.

mystik610

anamorphic96 wrote: »

I'm a little late to this thread but thought I would add my two cents.

1. The room is way to big for that sub. You should really have two. Since the 505 is pretty cheap you could easily get a second one.

2. Always leave Dynamic EQ off when turning up movies. It has a habit of causing subs to bottom out. Dynamic EQ is supposed to compensate for this by lowering the sub level as the volume gets higher, however it still tends to cause problems in my experience. It's a great function at lower listening levels or helping out an anemic sound mix. But always turn it off when cranking up movies. It seems you have discovered this, as the sub stopped bottoming out when you shut it off.

I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that for technical purposes, most 'subwoofers' being sold these days aren't 'true subwoofers'. A subwoofer, by literal definition, is a woofer designed to play subsonic frequencies (30hz and lower)....anything incapable of playing subsonic frequencies at a respectable level is simply a woofer or a bass speaker.

It sounds like semantics, but when Audyssey is EQ'ing the LFE channel, its job is to flatten the subs output throughout the entire LFE channel's frequency range...including the subsonic frequencies. It doesn't account for the fact that a sub can't play in the subsonic frequencies.

My experience with audyssey and my old sub, which rolled off at 30hz, was terrible...my experience with audyssey and my new sub, which rolls off at around 15hz, is great. It does the often tricky job of level matching the sub at all volume levels. Its loud enough at high volumes, but never excessive at low levels.

It would probably be a good idea for Audyssey to implement some sort feature that allows a user to input the stated roll-off point for their sub, thus allowing audyssey to take account of the subs natural roll-off in its EQ algorithms.

mystik610

kuntasensei wrote: »

I have to politely disagree with a few things:

2. Dynamic EQ actually aims for flat response at 0/reference, then changes the equalization of the sub as you turn volume down below reference. It doesn't change the subwoofer channel globally - it boosts the audible range of bass and actually tapers deep response off slightly as the equalization changes away from reference. If Dynamic EQ is causing the sub to bottom, it is typically an issue with mic placement with the initial setup that causes it to boost the lowest frequencies too much, and the only fix is to redo Audyssey with more critical mic placement. With a room his size that has the seating more toward the middle of the room, it would be a good idea for him to do 3 mic positions on the seats themselves using a tripod, then do a couple of positions a foot or two BEHIND the seats. Most rooms have the seating nearer to a wall so you get the benefit of boundary-induced gain. Perhaps the OP can weigh in on what he's using for mic positions (and whether he's using a tripod, which is an absolute NECESSITY for Audyssey).

Good points.

Other than the fact that the sub is obviously is too small for a room that size, it appears that both the sub and the listening position are sitting in null points of the room...This is probably accentuating the roll-off at the subsonic frequencies, which will prompt audyssey to boost these frequencies even higher.

I would try putting the sub in the corner where the rock band drums are..and maybe moving the listening position back a little bit if possible.

dorokusai

This isn't rocket science guys and "reference" level is simply a guide to try and keep things simple. The suggestions posted are excellent and in the end you have to adjust and tweak for yourself. This hobby is easily and most often filled with over-thinking when it's really not that hard to achieve high quality sound.

Keep perspective, don't get wrapped up in what your friend says, only worry about what you hear.

tonyb

Good advice Mark, but I will add that you have to realize at some point all the tweeking in the world won't help the wrong gear sound right.

dorokusai

Tony - Agreed but every scenario cannot possibly be commented upon in a single thread, or cluster of comments. You have to make do with what you have at your disposal. There is a happy medium.

xxmastermushxx

Dynamic EQ actually aims for flat response at 0/reference, then changes the equalization of the sub as you turn volume down below reference. It doesn't change the subwoofer channel globally - it boosts the audible range of bass and actually tapers deep response off slightly as the equalization changes away from reference. If Dynamic EQ is causing the sub to bottom, it is typically an issue with mic placement with the initial setup that causes it to boost the lowest frequencies too much, and the only fix is to redo Audyssey with more critical mic placement. With a room his size that has the seating more toward the middle of the room, it would be a good idea for him to do 3 mic positions on the seats themselves using a tripod, then do a couple of positions a foot or two BEHIND the seats. Most rooms have the seating nearer to a wall so you get the benefit of boundary-induced gain. Perhaps the OP can weigh in on what he's using for mic positions (and whether he's using a tripod, which is an absolute NECESSITY for Audyssey).

What is reference levels?

I don't use a tripod, like I said, monies tight. I use cardboard tubes, cutout the tops for the four corners of the Audyssey mic.

xxmastermushxx, where are your mic placements for Audyssey? This may be just a simple case of needing to shift things around so it gets a better reading of your room's acoustics.

Here's some pictures showing my current mic places:Audyssey positions, new..pdf

I would try putting the sub in the corner where the rock band drums are..and maybe moving the listening position back a little bit if possible.

Don't you want the SW in front, and near the center channel in-case audible bass is heard? I'll try it, I'll need a longer LFE cable cable though.

mystik610

xxmastermushxx wrote: »

What is reference levels?

Reference level is the volume level that the soundtrack is mastered in. The number you see associated to the volume on your sub is the number of db's +/- reference. ie...-37 volume is 37 decibels lower in volume than reference.

In terms of Audyssey, the whole purpose of audyssey is to level match the output of each channel, at all frequencies from the listening position, at reference level volumes. Audyssey Dynamic EQ will actively apply equalization filters, so that all the speakers are level matched and have a flat frequency response at all volume levels.

xxmastermushxx wrote: »

I don't use a tripod, like I said, monies tight. I use cardboard tubes, cutout the tops for the four corners of the Audyssey mic.

I wouldn't use those cardboard tubes....it seems like they would be susceptible to resonance and could throw the calibration off. Try to use something sturdy..and something that isn't hollow

xxmastermushxx wrote: »

Don't you want the SW in front, and near the center channel in-case audible bass is heard? I'll try it, I'll need a longer LFE cable cable though.

It depends on where the low pass filter on your sub is set via the receiver. Anywhere below 80hz, even the audible frequencies aren't localizable and placement near the mains isn't absolutely necessary.

In the sitaution you're in, where your sub is too small for your room, nearfield placement will give you more SPL at the listenig area, and boundary gain from corner placement will you give you additional output in the lower frequencies.

I actually use a nearfield placement of my sub...its a beastly sub, but my living-room is an acoustic nightmare.

xxmastermushxx

Reference level is the volume level that the soundtrack is mastered in. The number you see associated to the volume on your sub is the number of db's +/- reference. ie...-37 volume is 37 decibels lower in volume than reference.

In terms of Audyssey, the whole purpose of audyssey is to level match the output of each channel, at all frequencies from the listening position, at reference level volumes. Audyssey Dynamic EQ will actively apply equalization filters, so that all the speakers are level matched and have a flat frequency response at all volume levels.

OK, thanks for the explanation.

I wouldn't use those cardboard tubes....it seems like they would be susceptible to resonance and could throw the calibration off. Try to use something sturdy..and something that isn't hollow

I'll do my best.

It depends on where the low pass filter on your sub is set via the receiver. Anywhere below 80hz, even the audible frequencies aren't localizable and placement near the mains isn't absolutely necessary.

My sub goes up to 160Hz, Audyssey crosses over at 150Hz though. Wouldn't that be localizable?

In the situation you're in, where your sub is too small for your room, nearfield placement will give you more SPL at the listenig area, and boundary gain from corner placement will you give you additional output in the lower frequencies.

So is near-field what I have now? Are you saying if I put my sub in the corner where the guitar hero drums are, that would be considered near-field?

I actually use a nearfield placement of my sub...its a beastly sub, but my living-room is an acoustic nightmare.

Your living-room's a lot more attractive then mine.

mystik610

xxmastermushxx wrote: »

My sub goes up to 160Hz, Audyssey crosses over at 150Hz though. Wouldn't that be localizable?

What is audyssey crossing your main speakers over at? 150hz is pretty damn high IMO. If your mains can dig lower than 150hz, then cross them over at a lower frequency, and adjust the low pass filter of the LFE channel accordingly. This will give your sub a little more head-room and dynamic range.

xxmastermushxx wrote: »

So is near-field what I have now? Are you saying if I put my sub in the corner where the guitar hero drums are, that would be considered near-field?

Near-field typically means close to the listening area....(ie next to your couch). Moving the sub closer to the listening area will give you more output at the listening area, and will give you better response in the mid-bass regions (40-80hz or so). It will also give you more head-room. Based on the situation you're in now.... you need all the head-room you can get

Aligning the sub so the ports fire into a wall gives you better performance in the lower bass regions...putting it the corner where the guitar hero drums shoud reinforce the subsonic frequencies you're having issues with. Technically that wouldn't be nearfield placement, since it would still be pretty far away from your seating area. Moving your couch closer to a wall, preferebly the same wall the sub is firing into, will give you better response in the lower frequencies

xxmastermushxx wrote: »

I actually use a nearfield placement of my sub...its a beastly sub, but my living-room is an acoustic nightmare.

Your living-room's a lot more attractive then mine.

Attractiveness has nothing to do with it...that's my wife's doing.

If you consider the placement concepts mentioned above, you can see why I had so many issues setting up a sub in my room. Its 14x24 feet with 20 ft vaulted ceilings, and a very open floor plan with very few solid walls. There are no useable corners in the room.

In the end, I had to make a lot of compromises, and maximize what I have (just like you're going to have to do). It will take at least one more 90 pound sub to flatten the LFE response in my room, and unless I want to risk divorce, it ain't happening anytime soon.

kuntasensei

Mystik has given you some solid advice. While I admire the McGuyver-like ingenuity of the cardboard tubes you constructed (especially the shoe you use as a stand), you can snag a tripod for like $20 from Amazon and it's a worthwhile purchase if you're using Audyssey. Cardboard tubes would absolutely wreak havoc with low frequency equalization.

I agree with what Mystik said about firing the ports toward the wall, but I would caution against placing it within 3" of the wall. Often, the sound from the ports can have enough effect on the wall itself that it makes it act like a passive radiator. More often than not, this ends up making it a rattling mess, though in the odd situation it can actually help. In your case, it might help to find a placement that exaggerates the low end and let Audyssey cut it back during the equalization.

You say your crossovers are being set to 150Hz, which is fairly high but pretty typical of satellite-sized speakers. What speakers are you using with the Denon and the 505? If you're running satellites and don't mind stepping up to bookshelves, you can mitigate a lot of your problems by ditching the satellites and snagging some Polk Monitor 30s here and there when your budget allows. Newegg typically has them for about $113/pair shipped, and Audyssey tends to detect their -3dB point around 50Hz which makes them perfect for an 80Hz crossover in your Denon. I'm running a pair as height channels and they're surprisingly close in sound to my more expensive (and older) RTi28s. 2 pair of the Monitor 30s and a CS2 center (Newegg - $123 shipped) would get you a hell of a small 5.1 system for about $350, you can buy each set when money allows, and the lower extension of those speakers will take some of the bass duties off of the 505 enough that it will handle its LFE duties better. I know you said money is tight... but just a suggestion. (Mostly 'cause that's how I got into this hobby years ago - I bought cheap Polks at a Circuit City closeout and look at me now!)

Looking at your mic placements: Keep positions 1-3 and 5 (but do that as position 4). For positions 5 and 6, place the mic about a foot or so BEHIND the couch, diagonally to either side of your main listening position. For seating placements near walls, it's best to keep the mic where your ears would be and forward... but for seating with some open space behind you, doing 1 or 2 mic placements there will not only give it a better idea of the bass in your general listening area, it will also help better EQ those surrounds where you have them.

TECHNOKID

While I admire the McGuyver-like ingenuity of the cardboard tubes you constructed (especially the shoe you use as a stand), you can snag a tripod for like $20 from Amazon and it's a worthwhile purchase if you're using Audyssey. Cardboard tubes would absolutely wreak havoc with low frequency equalization.

I fully agree and think the way you are using your mic is potentially a big part of your problem. Since money is tight, I would suggest you buy one from your local BB and with their return policy you can simply return it after you calibrate your set up if you can not afford to keep it (I normally wouldn't suggest such but I can appreciate a young student with minimal budget )

Now, on the satellites, many are more likely in the area of 80 - 100 hz (most Polk RM series are in that area) so you should set them as close as possible to the lower limit and a slight overlap of your sub (100 hz perhaps?) top limit should help.

Cheers!
TK

xxmastermushxx

What is audyssey crossing your main speakers over at? 150hz is pretty damn high IMO. If your mains can dig lower than 150hz, then cross them over at a lower frequency, and adjust the low pass filter of the LFE channel accordingly. This will give your sub a little more head-room and dynamic range.

The DQ-10's (front speakers) can go down to 40Hz, but are crossed over at 100Hz to prevent distortion.

Audyssey has the fronts set at 40Hz crossover, the center at 80hz, and the surrounds at 110Hz. Manuel setup says, LPF for LFE: 150Hz, should I set that at 80Hz? That sounds right to me, but then I'm not crystal clear about speaker crossovers.

Near-field typically means close to the listening area....(ie next to your couch). Moving the sub closer to the listening area will give you more output at the listening area, and will give you better response in the mid-bass regions (40-80hz or so). It will also give you more head-room. Based on the situation you're in now.... you need all the head-room you can get

Aligning the sub so the ports fire into a wall gives you better performance in the lower bass regions...putting it the corner where the guitar hero drums shoud reinforce the subsonic frequencies you're having issues with. Technically that wouldn't be nearfield placement, since it would still be pretty far away from your seating area. Moving your couch closer to a wall, preferebly the same wall the sub is firing into, will give you better response in the lower frequencies

Here's some pictures of places I could put it, where do you think would offer the best bass response? Subwoofer positions..pdf

The SW port is the opening behind the SW right?

Attractiveness has nothing to do with it...that's my wife's doing.

If you consider the placement concepts mentioned above, you can see why I had so many issues setting up a sub in my room. Its 14x24 feet with 20 ft vaulted ceilings, and a very open floor plan with very few solid walls. There are no useable corners in the room.

In the end, I had to make a lot of compromises, and maximize what I have (just like you're going to have to do). It will take at least one more 90 pound sub to flatten the LFE response in my room, and unless I want to risk divorce, it ain't happening anytime soon.

Your wife has good choice; however, it seems as though your giving up acoustical perfection for your wife's upholstery needs.

Must be tough, you just need to build a room for a theater...or buy your wife some noise canceling headphones. :rolleyes:

xxmastermushxx

I just bought a pair of RM6751's and Audyssey sets those at 110Hz. They cost me $81 and then I had to buy some wall mounts, another $11. They're a lot better then the old surrounds I had, those had a frequency crossover of 200Hz. If I can get away with the Rm6751's that would be a relief, considering I JUST bought these around a week ago.

The SW is what's getting crossed over at 150Hz, not the satellites.

kuntasensei

LPF of LFE is fine at 150 (though nothing over 120Hz is in the LFE channel anyway). All your other crossovers seem fairly reasonable and you should be okay with the surrounds you have.

Oh, wow... I just realized that your mains are Dahlquist DQ-10s! I was thinking they looked familiar, but I haven't seen one in ages! You said Audyssey set them at 40Hz (which is not unexpected) but that you changed them to 100? I would stick to 80Hz on those if you're not going to stick to 40Hz. That gives them a full octave transition. DQ-10s were insanely solid in the mid-range but had some issues at the low end. Still, those are nice if they're in good working order. I almost hate to see someone using them in a 5.1 setup instead of a dedicated 2-channel rig with updated crossovers.

As far as your sub placement, no one can really tell you based on pictures. What you might do is put the sub in your main listening position and then stick your head in each of those positions to see which has the most even sound. But you're not gonna really know until you try the sub in those positions. All that said, I still think getting a tripod and doing some more critical mic placement will help immensely. Good luck, man!

xxmastermushxx

kuntasensei wrote: »

LPF of LFE is fine at 150 (though nothing over 120Hz is in the LFE channel anyway). All your other crossovers seem fairly reasonable and you should be okay with the surrounds you have.

Oh, wow... I just realized that your mains are Dahlquist DQ-10s! I was thinking they looked familiar, but I haven't seen one in ages! You said Audyssey set them at 40Hz (which is not unexpected) but that you changed them to 100? I would stick to 80Hz on those if you're not going to stick to 40Hz. That gives them a full octave transition. DQ-10s were insanely solid in the mid-range but had some issues at the low end. Still, those are nice if they're in good working order. I almost hate to see someone using them in a 5.1 setup instead of a dedicated 2-channel rig with updated crossovers.

As far as your sub placement, no one can really tell you based on pictures. What you might do is put the sub in your main listening position and then stick your head in each of those positions to see which has the most even sound. But you're not gonna really know until you try the sub in those positions. All that said, I still think getting a tripod and doing some more critical mic placement will help immensely. Good luck, man!

Thanks for the support.

Should I set the sub at 80Hz? The DQ-10's would be able to fill in the rest of the mid range.

The DQ-10's are set at 40Hz, they just start to roll off at 100Hz to prevent any distortion. Like I said, my dad was a true audiophile (still is) when he got these.

The idea was to use the DQ-10's until we get some other front channel speakers. My dad also has an insanely nice two channel amp, it was something like $6,000. When paired with the DQ-10's it's pure audiophile bliss! He was really into classical music so he got this setup and they've been going strong for years!

I'm actually glad you noticed them for what they really are, didn't want to sound pompous exclaiming how I have really nice front speakers.

TECHNOKID

+1... Keep your DQs as front and set them in the area of 80 hz and try set your sub in the same manner and keep the RMs in the 200 area...

As I pointed out get a tripod from BB and return it afterward... As pointed out, place your sub in the seating position and do the crawling around to find the best suitable position for your sub... don't forget to try your sub beside ythe seating position as it will be close to you and you should max output going at you instead of crossing the entire room with loss.

Should I set the sub at 80Hz? The DQ-10's would be able to fill in the rest of the mid range.

The DQ-10's are set at 40Hz, they just start to roll off at 100Hz to prevent any distortion. Like I said, my dad was a true audiophile (still is) when he got these.

Yes for the sub and trial and error for the DQs. Don't give up, you getting there If at all possible, you might want to place the extra RMs as rear centers maybe???

Oh, if there is any way for you to also set your DQs for B channel too it would provide for 2.1 music listening (bypassing the RMs which would be in A channels only for movies)

Cheers!
TK

kuntasensei

You want the dial on the subwoofer itself set to its maximum, or to bypass (or use an unfiltered LFE-in if it has one - I'm not familiar with the 505's amp plate). The LPF of LFE control on your receiver would typically be set to 120Hz, since the LFE channel itself is brickwall filtered at 120Hz anyway, and this doesn't affect the redirected bass from the other channels. Setting it to 80Hz will do nothing but get rid of the harmonics above 80Hz in the LFE channel that give deep bass its perceived tone... and won't help your bottoming issue one bit.

Man, like I said... I hate to see those DQ-10s being run in a 5.1 setup instead of 2-channel. They are damn fine speakers for their day... but I can't imagine how much hell it must play on Audyssey's detection to have them rolling off gradually near 100Hz. Truthfully, Audyssey is probably trying to EQ that rolloff out. You may seriously want to change them from 40Hz to 80Hz in your AVR. Doing that will throw out all Audyssey's equalization below 80Hz, preventing it from interfering too much with the 100Hz taper you have them doing. Then you can still switch to 2-channel for music and get their full range. Just a thought.

TECHNOKID

Then you can still switch to 2-channel for music and get their full range. Just a thought.

makes sense!

xxmastermushxx

I already have a setup on the receiver that has the DQ-10's as stereo, don't worry, I'm just as enthusiastic about music as I am movies.

If your confused about my surrounds, the RM6751's are the surrounds I recently bought, they are the ones that Audyssey crosses over at 110Hz.The surrounds I had before the RM's, were crossed over at 200Hz.

I'll try settings the DQ-10's at 80Hz.

So, I should keep the LPF for LFE at 150Hz?

I'll look into getting a tripod, maybe I can snag one for $15. I'm not cheap, don't let my budget trick you, I just have other interests as well.

You want the dial on the subwoofer itself set to its maximum, or to bypass (or use an unfiltered LFE-in if it has one - I'm not familiar with the 505's amp plate).

I have the subwoofer on LFE unfiltered right now, it also has a filtered in. What dial do you mean? The crossover, or the gain? I have the crossover at maximum too.