Considering a new amp, how many watts?
Comments
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nooshinjohn wrote: »^^^ I need some of watt you have been smoking bro!Thank you for that excellent contribution ... and RT1 has left a few gems of wisdom in his cryptic posts as well ... which unfortunately means that some may not take the time to take them seriously.
http://www.jolida.com/index.php?p=products&category=1&model=26
I don't need no stinken smoke to get crazy.
True Kex, but all I can do is put it out there, maybe a few will suck it up, but evetually the worm turns and the issues mentioned will present. There are no gimmicks in hi-fi.
RT1 -
Check out www.emotiva.com! I would recommend the XPA-2 in your case.
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Mr. Pan, I would recommend medical assistance in your case. I've heard recently that they can no longer refuse you treatment for pre-existing conditions.Check out www.emotiva.com! I would recommend the XPA-2 in your case.Alea jacta est! -
lol!!mr. Pan, i would recommend medical assistance in your case. I've heard recently that they can no longer refuse you treatment for pre-existing conditions.
:D:D:D The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »I don't need no stinken smoke to get crazy.
True Kex, but all I can do is put it out there, maybe a few will suck it up, but evetually the worm turns and the issues mentioned will present. There are no gimmicks in hi-fi.
RT1
When I get confused by your muse BB, I just pull out my trusty ole official, endorsed by the master, RT1 decoder ring and all is well!:D -
But how iz I knowed if my amp are clipping?reeltrouble1 wrote: »second word of the day is "clipping" which is what happens to the transients if you do not have enough...
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But how iz I knowed if my amp are clipping?
your amp will burst into flames and burn your house down. -
i bet the amp will peak around 75 watts every time the kick drum is hit. power output with music is very random and can go from 1w to 100w and anything in between on just a second or two of music. unless you listen to raw sine waves your never going to be using the same power all the time, but trust me, that 100watts does get used.I measured the input at the speaker terminals and my average listening level uses 1.7 watts, I couldn't believe it. The 1a's say something like 25-500 watts. I can't even imagine how loud it would be with 100 watts, let alone 500. Why is this much power needed? -
TouchOfEvil wrote: »As long as it's a quality amp the more power usually results in a cleaner more refined sound from what i have heard. Also your bass will fill out and go much lower.
this is because low frequency reproduction require anywhere from 3-10x the power of mid/highs because the cone must move much further in and out to correctly produce the long waveforms. if your amp cant put out what it needs on bass peaks such as kick drum kicks, you just simply wont have the long extension needed, capping your response from anywhere from 50-100hz.perfectcreature wrote:Yeah I had a sony bookshelf that stated it was 2200 watts of power...yep it sounds like crap and doesn't touch how loud and clear my monitor 50s sound on just a mere 50 watts....
I cannot wait till my HK arrives on my door step....120 watts of clean high current power here i come!
Yeah....most times watts are just head room... I know the monitor 50s are rated for 150 watts....but probably could take 200 or so if the watts were clean and had little distortion just fine.
I know I have subwoofers in my car and they said only 350 watts each...but I power them with a class A rockford fosgate amp at 500 watts each and they sound just fine with absolutely no distortion at high volumes... now, I am sure if I had a class D amp...with 150...it would clip and my subs would be ruined eventhough my subs said they could handle 350...
Kinda get it?
exactly, power ratings on speakers really are useless, i ruined a pair of 100w rms bookshelfs by using a 13w boombox amp, on the other hand i have in the past for many hours at a time driven 50w MAX bookshelfs on a 130wpc amp full blast with no problems. -
In ALL of these posts, I've YET to see ANYONE mention OHMS law!
For BASIC reasons we shall start here: I=V/R. For those whom aren't familiar with this nomenclature, let me explain:I is current in amperes, V is voltage in(duh) volts, and R is resistance in ohms. For a BASIC power formula, P=V*I, OR power in watts equals voltage multiplied by current.
This is where it gets tricky. Impedance(which most driver arrays are measured in) is ALSO in OHMS of resistance. HOWEVER this value changes with frequency, SO most manufacturers AVERAGE this value within the prime audible spectrum. Also if I'm not mistaken, decibels(dB) are an exponential function(ie if 80dB takes 10 watts, 81 takes 100, 82 takes 1000 and so forth).
NOW with this being said, the amount of power you need depends on how deep your wallet really is. Amplifiers are power supplies. If it claims 1200 watts and the sticker says it pulls 600-CALL BS!!!!!! Nothing is free.
ANOTHER NOTE-IF ANY OF THIS IS INCORRECT POINT IT OUT PLEASE. No information is ALWAYS better than bad information.
And that's my 2 cents. Sorry to rant.Onkyo TX-SR705 AVR
Onkyo M-501-Given to my father.
Onkyo DX-C730 CD Changer
Onkyo DV-BD507 Blu Ray player
Onkyo CP-1036A turntable with Grado, Audio Technique, and Azden cartridges(GOT CARTRIDGE??)
Polk Monitor 12's with RDO's and XO's
Polk CS300 Center
Polk Monitor Series 4 rears
EBAY is like cocaine. At first you only look, next thing you know, your house is full of crap you have no idea why you own.:eek: -
thats also a good thing to mention, when looking at amps, i disregard the power claims unless it is a marantz because almost all their models have benched at the claims at all channels driven, and look at the power consumption stickers.
btw your signature is hilarious, i loled for 5 minutes over that because i can relate. -
oh and ohms ratings arent always correct either, the resistance of a driver array can vary for numerous reasons, for instance, you run your speakers at full power gain (0db on db rated volume controls) the resistance will go up and the volume will go down because the voice coil heats up, it also depends on the frequency, resistance goes way down on lower frequencies. this is why bass draws more current.
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In ALL of these posts, I've YET to see ANYONE mention OHMS law!
For BASIC reasons we shall start here: I=V/R. For those whom aren't familiar with this nomenclature, let me explain:I is current in amperes, V is voltage in(duh) volts, and R is resistance in ohms. For a BASIC power formula, P=V*I, OR power in watts equals voltage multiplied by current.
This is where it gets tricky. Impedance(which most driver arrays are measured in) is ALSO in OHMS of resistance. HOWEVER this value changes with frequency, SO most manufacturers AVERAGE this value within the prime audible spectrum. Also if I'm not mistaken, decibels(dB) are an exponential function(ie if 80dB takes 10 watts, 81 takes 100, 82 takes 1000 and so forth).
NOW with this being said, the amount of power you need depends on how deep your wallet really is. Amplifiers are power supplies. If it claims 1200 watts and the sticker says it pulls 600-CALL BS!!!!!! Nothing is free.
ANOTHER NOTE-IF ANY OF THIS IS INCORRECT POINT IT OUT PLEASE. No information is ALWAYS better than bad information.
And that's my 2 cents. Sorry to rant.
Why, thank you sir for the lesson. Although I must say, you've made a simple amp/wattage/speaker setup complicated.:D -
I forgot to mention I^2R losses in that rant, but you be correct! Sort of-impedance changes with frequency, the DCR(direct current resistance) of the drivers coil doesn't(as far as I know), however, music is a VERY complex AC wave. And yes, lower frequencies are CURRENT HOGS!!!
Yeah, I EFFING HATE EBAY(be there next). Good thing I don't spend a lot of time online anymore, my wife would KILL ME!Onkyo TX-SR705 AVR
Onkyo M-501-Given to my father.
Onkyo DX-C730 CD Changer
Onkyo DV-BD507 Blu Ray player
Onkyo CP-1036A turntable with Grado, Audio Technique, and Azden cartridges(GOT CARTRIDGE??)
Polk Monitor 12's with RDO's and XO's
Polk CS300 Center
Polk Monitor Series 4 rears
EBAY is like cocaine. At first you only look, next thing you know, your house is full of crap you have no idea why you own.:eek: -
NOW with this being said, the amount of power you need depends on how deep your wallet really is. Amplifiers are power supplies. If it claims 1200 watts and the sticker says it pulls 600-CALL BS!!!!!! Nothing is free.
I'm no expert, so I could be completely off base, but because capacitors store power wouldn't it be perfectly plausible that an amp could dole out short bursts of more power than it draws? It's not free, it's just stored for when it needs it...?Speakers: Polk LSi15
Pre: Adcom GFP-750 with HT Bypass
Amp: Pass Labs X-150
CD/DVD Player: Classe CDP-10
Interconnects: MIT Shortgun S3 Pro XLR
Speaker cables: MIT MH-750 bi-wire
TT:Micro Seiki DD-35
Cartridge:Denon DL-160
Phono Pre:PS Audio GCPH -
yes this is called PMPO but it can only be sustained for fractions of a second, this is why your piece of **** boomboxes have ratings like "400watts" the PMPO of a real amp that can comfortably give 100wpc could reach into the thousands.
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basically the 100w RMS rating on your amp mean that if you play a 1khz sine wave with the volume turned to 0Db on digital volume controls or around 1/2 way up on analog ones you will be drawing 100w of constant power. PMPO would be drawn whenever you have the volume control set to 0Db and someone hits a kick drum its going to go past the RMS rating anywhere from 10-100w, but the amp can only sustain that for one single kick, or in movies, a gunshot would use PMPO
PMPO drains the reserves power faster then then transformer can draw it from the wall and refill it, once the reserves are drained, you get clipping until they refill. -
In ALL of these posts, I've YET to see ANYONE mention OHMS law!
For BASIC reasons we shall start here: I=V/R. For those whom aren't familiar with this nomenclature, let me explain:I is current in amperes, V is voltage in(duh) volts, and R is resistance in ohms. For a BASIC power formula, P=V*I, OR power in watts equals voltage multiplied by current.
This is where it gets tricky. Impedance(which most driver arrays are measured in) is ALSO in OHMS of resistance. HOWEVER this value changes with frequency, SO most manufacturers AVERAGE this value within the prime audible spectrum. Also if I'm not mistaken, decibels(dB) are an exponential function(ie if 80dB takes 10 watts, 81 takes 100, 82 takes 1000 and so forth).
NOW with this being said, the amount of power you need depends on how deep your wallet really is. Amplifiers are power supplies. If it claims 1200 watts and the sticker says it pulls 600-CALL BS!!!!!! Nothing is free.
ANOTHER NOTE-IF ANY OF THIS IS INCORRECT POINT IT OUT PLEASE. No information is ALWAYS better than bad information.
And that's my 2 cents. Sorry to rant.
Actually, you double the power for every 3db. Using the LSi9 with it's 88db at 1m with 1 watt rating as an example, it would go something like this:
88db 1 watt
91db 2 watts
94db 4 watts
97db 8 watts
100db 16 watts
103db 32 watts
106db 64 watts
109db 128 watts
112db 256 watts
115db 512 watts
And so on... -
I am surprised to see no one mention Transfer function!
Some amps are incompetant at delivering rated power. Some of the Kenwood products and even the massive Rotel (380 wpc) are guilty of this.
A well designed amp (Like Myriad, outlaw, Mccormack DNA, Bryston etc) will sound better, with superior bass grip because they have the ability to push current properly. For example, it was appearent to me on some Dynaudio and B&W florstanders that a 225 wpc rated Bryston just clobbers the 380 wpc rated Rotel. Designs make a difference. -
http://www.integratedaudio.com/help/sensitivity.pdf
once again this is referring to a 1khz sine wave, technically 87db which is a common sensitivity rating and a common listening level, can be acheived with 1w, in reality this has nothing to do with power consumption because you arent going to be able to playback a full range complex musical signal at 87db with 1w, not correctly atleast. sensitivity ratings only are a guideline as to how loud your speaker is in comparison to this one. -
I am surprised to see no one mention Transfer function!
Some amps are incompetant at delivering rated power. Some of the Kenwood products and even the massive Rotel (380 wpc) are guilty of this.
A well designed amp (Like Myriad, outlaw, Mccormack DNA, Bryston etc) will sound better, with superior bass grip because they have the ability to push current properly. For example, it was appearent to me on some Dynaudio and B&W florstanders that a 225 wpc rated Bryston just clobbers the 380 wpc rated Rotel. Designs make a difference.
i have a kenwood amp and it is a piece of garbage and sounds only slightly better then a boombox amp. -
yepimonfire wrote: »i have a kenwood amp and it is a piece of garbage and sounds only slightly better then a boombox amp.
True story: Kenwood M-2 basic. rated 200 wpc. Delivery: 1/3 rated power into 8 ohms!
gah! -
My head hurts ....
This subject and related topics have been discussed, without being stupidly complex, on several occasions:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90917
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63392
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63134http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57434
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81136
There is just no guarantee that extra watts will yield the intended result IMO and a mere 30 clean w/ch will probably be more than enough for most people (that don't want to damage their hearing). I listen mostly at reference level, 85dB(A), for movies; and from 75-85dB(A) for music. Some will consider that absurdly loud already, and I beg to differ, but anything above that is taking risks IMO:
http://hearinglosshelp.com/weblog/?p=83
The tube fiends will probably tell you that they don't even need 30w/ch, but I think that is already covered in at least one of those existing threads.Alea jacta est! -
tubes have alot of headroom and clip softer then SS amps
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Actually, you double the power for every 3db. Using the LSi9 with it's 88db at 1m with 1 watt rating as an example, it would go something like this:
THIS IS GOOD! Wasn't sure about that one being right, was kinda in the stands at the game though.Onkyo TX-SR705 AVR
Onkyo M-501-Given to my father.
Onkyo DX-C730 CD Changer
Onkyo DV-BD507 Blu Ray player
Onkyo CP-1036A turntable with Grado, Audio Technique, and Azden cartridges(GOT CARTRIDGE??)
Polk Monitor 12's with RDO's and XO's
Polk CS300 Center
Polk Monitor Series 4 rears
EBAY is like cocaine. At first you only look, next thing you know, your house is full of crap you have no idea why you own.:eek: -
Which sort of explains both sides of the watts debate: Those that argue in favor of more watts consider that they might just need those 512 watts for 115dB explosions (musical and/or orchestral, or otherwise). Those that argue in favor of better watts (not more watts) show that the jump from good clean 50w/ch amplification to 100w/ch amplification only gets you 3dB extra (in a best case scenario, which supposes equal quality component construction and design), almost nothing in real terms; and another jump to 200w/ch still only gets you an extra 3dB on top of that.Actually, you double the power for every 3db. ...Alea jacta est! -
unless you want to buy large PA speakers capable of handling thousands of watts, buying higher wattage amps is not really going to increase volume, but dynamics, accurate low end reproduction, and overall cleanness of the sound. the most gain you can get from standard 87db speakers before they go out is a max SPL of 115db.
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Bottom line, a quality amp of 100-200 WPC will get it done pretty well.
Most 2 channel home amp's ratings are fairly honest due to government
requirements. It's multi-channel that's BS. The ratings standards haven't
been updated to cover them. Better brands are rated well, but there are tons
of "mass market" HT receivers from those big electronics stores that don't
begin to truly put out 100 wpc all channels driven. And not all amps
sound the same. Some are smooth, harsh, warm, bright, etc.
Some yahoo came here a couple of years ago with a claim that all
properly designed amps sound the same. Biggest pile I ever heard.
I seldom have heard any two amps sound the same."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
sucks2beme wrote: »Bottom line, a quality amp of 100-200 WPC will get it done pretty well.
Most 2 channel home amp's ratings are fairly honest due to government
requirements. It's multi-channel that's BS. The ratings standards haven't
been updated to cover them. Better brands are rated well, but there are tons
of "mass market" HT receivers from those big electronics stores that don't
begin to truly put out 100 wpc all channels driven. And not all amps
sound the same. Some are smooth, harsh, warm, bright, etc.
Some yahoo came here a couple of years ago with a claim that all
properly designed amps sound the same. Biggest pile I ever heard.
I seldom have heard any two amps sound the same.
IIRC there were plenty of recievers that were rated as high as 170 wpc/5 channel...but there was always an asterisk. Either the TRUE rating was posted much lower in the fine print, measured deceptively (not 20hz-20khz but 1khz tone) or these receivers would test for a fraction of the output. I refuse to buy any product from a company that would have a deceptive practice like that.
