New Alpine amps

Installer4life

ARUN you almost got it right. If you double your power you can get a 3db increase but to get to a 9db increase you have to double your power again then again so you go from 100 watts to 200 watts to 400 watts to 800watts. So to increase your sound by 9 db you have to increase your power 8 times not 3 times. I agree that amps sound different. Maybe amps that cost the same sound the same but if power made all the difference then there is no reason to have all the high dollar amplifiers. I know an amps job is to reproduce the signal it recieves as close as it can to the original recording without coloring the sound. But amps are made of electronic components and all of these components have tolerances. Better amps use better components so they will perform their job better. Whether you can hear it or not is another question but amps sound differently...Its impossible for all of them to sound the same...

TakeTheTime

Finally someone agreeing with me...

MacLeod

Installer4life wrote: »

I agree that amps sound different. Maybe amps that cost the same sound the same but if power made all the difference then there is no reason to have all the high dollar amplifiers.

Outstanding! Youve answered youre own question. Zapco knows they cant ask $1000 for their amps if people think they arent going to sound any better than a $250 MTX amp. Same with RCA cables. Signal Cable has to justify charging $500 for a 3' set of RCA's so they claim "broader soundstage and deeper midbass".

Now thats not to say there is no good reason to buy an Audison over a Pyle. The Audison is going to be made much better, will have no noise at all, exceed its rated power and last forever. Whereas the Pyle will be lucky to get anywhere near its ratings, will have all kinds of turn on pops and probably wont last more than a couple years. These are the reasons to spend more money on a quality amp - no for deeper bass.

I know an amps job is to reproduce the signal it recieves as close as it can to the original recording without coloring the sound. But amps are made of electronic components and all of these components have tolerances. Better amps use better components so they will perform their job better.

This is true but to a point. For example, .05% THD is better than .5% THD but it doesnt matter cause you cant hear anything below 1%. It doesnt take a $1000 amp to reproduce a transparent signal. The evidence for this is the response graph. Theyre all ruler flat. Cant have increased midbass without bumping up 63-125 Hz. Cant have harsh midrange without bumping up 2.5-4 KHz. Cant have thick sounding vocals without bumping 160-250 Hz. And again, why would you want an amp that changed the input signal at all?

Whether you can hear it or not is another question but amps sound differently...Its impossible for all of them to sound the same...

Not really. Its been proven time and time again that nobody can. And its not impossible for all amps to sound the same. Its not that hard or expensive to take an incoming signal and amplify it transparently. A $300 amp can do it as well as a $3000 amp can. There are differences but tonality aint one of them.

dudeinaroom

Another way to figure what spl you will get out of x watts is to remember that to achieve a 10 db gain you need to increase the power ten times.

Installer4life

So your saying a class AB amp and a expensive tube amp sounds the same. I would be willing to bet that many home audiophiles will disagree. Now if all amps were designed the same then I would agree with you but I have heard to many. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Oh by the way Richard Clark also said he saw no need in a car stereo installation shop needing any wood working tools. I was at a speech he was given when he said it...

MacLeod

There is a difference with a tube amp but thats because its such an inefficient design that it rolls off the top end. That gives you the "warmth" youre hearing. You can easily achieve this with an EQ.

And there are lots of home audiophiles that disagree with me. They also pay $60 for a 3' magic extension cord that gives broader soundstages. They also pay $500+ for RCA cables. Oh and dont forget the cable risers. You know, those shot glass looking things that raise the RCA cables off the floor because we all know that vibrations in the floor can be transmitted into your RCA cables and come out as noise.

If you like buying expensive gear for the sake of buying it, thats totally fine. I just bought a $50 keyboard for my gaming PC just cause it looked cool but wont work any better than the cheap, 10 year old basic keyboard Ive been using, so I get why you buy the pricey stuff. Just dont try to sell me on things that they simply dont do and have been proven over and over again that they dont do. That fancy keyboard still types out the same exact letters as my old one did.

TakeTheTime

However, class D and AB has different construction and I clearly heard the sound difference. Both were Alpine amps, but I could tell the PDX was class D - especially in the midrange.

Mac, I don't think people buy expensive amps just because of the looks,
'cause if there weren't any difference people could just but cheap GAS-amps...

And Arun, I haven't been into car audio for a couple of months,
but almost one year - and I've done a lot, read a lot, learned a lot.

arun1963

Installer4life wrote: »

ARUN you almost got it right....

Yeah, story of my life . I should have caught that before posting.

But amps don't sound different. Yes the Genesis, Helix, Zappco amps will have great electronics. Thats to ensure that they last longer and don't break down not because said components sound sweeter.

MacLeod

TakeTheTime wrote: »

However, class D and AB has different construction and I clearly heard the sound difference. Both were Alpine amps, but I could tell the PDX was class D - especially in the midrange.

Mac, I don't think people buy expensive amps just because of the looks,
'cause if there weren't any difference people could just but cheap GAS-amps...

You can convince yourself you're hearing things when youre not. Several times Ive been tuning and I'll pick a frequency and start turning it up thinking wow that sounds better, then look down and realize I hadn't pushed the button and was just spinning the dial and not changing anything.

That's why you listening to an amp then installing another one isn't considered scientific and objective. To be objective you have to do double blind where you don't know which one you're listening to so your perceptions don't get in the way and you're listening to them side by side. In these tests, over and over, nobody hears a difference.

And again, I never said all amps are identical. You buy the Zapco amp and it'll have superior build quality, features and lack of noise. You buy a flea market amp and it will have a turn pop lile a rifle shot, it'll make half its rated power and not last long before it fries itself.

jay27

TakeTheTime wrote: »

However, class D and AB has different construction and I clearly heard the sound difference. Both were Alpine amps, but I could tell the PDX was class D - especially in the midrange.

Mac, I don't think people buy expensive amps just because of the looks,
'cause if there weren't any difference people could just but cheap GAS-amps...

And Arun, I haven't been into car audio for a couple of months,
but almost one year - and I've done a lot, read a lot, learned a lot.

Some people buy expensive amps because they are expensive and they feel better about themselves when owning it. Don't get me wrong, I like the high end stuff too. An Audison Thesis amp would add class to any system, but I wouldn't bet my lunch on being able to tell the difference between that amp and another quality amp with the same power output.

arun1963

MacLeod wrote: »

You can convince yourself you're hearing things when youre not. Several times Ive been tuning and I'll pick a frequency and start turning it up thinking wow that sounds better, then look down and realize I hadn't pushed the button and was just spinning the dial and not changing anything.

phew, I thought it was only me.

jay27

In the last year and a half, I have tested (among others) an Audison Srx3, Nakamichi PA2002, Zapco C2K2.5x and C2k3.0x, and the JL HD series.

They did seem to sound different, but only when you went up in power did I prefer one over the other. And when the power was equal, there was no telling.

As far as cables go, I couldn't tell the difference there either. I tried some expensive ones and some 25 foot $3 cheapies from Monoprice, and I couldn't tell the difference. The $3 cables don't inspire much confidence when you look at them, but I still couldn't tell the difference and they didn't even induce any noise that I could tell.

TakeTheTime

Video of (only) SR-mids playing on the Adcom.

PoweredByDodge

Why on god's earth is this still up for debate...

a) Class D amps will not break something in the ballpark of 500 Hz. Amps based on Class D tech but altered can do pretty much full audio spectrum (Class T, Class I, and other proprietary classes). However, given current tech, the slew rates and THD are sickening compared to their predecessors. That said, they're to be stayed away from.

b) Contrary to popular belief, 1.5 % THD below 100 Hz at 1500 watts will be mighty hard to audibly distinguish from 0.01 % THD. 999 out of 1,000 people will not hear it, and the one that does won't even know they heard it.

c) "I've been in car audio almost one year". Good for you. Want a cookie?

d) Class A (tube) amplifiers are inefficient beasts of distortion, and that 'warm' sound you hear is nothing but an adulteration of the actual recording you're trying to play back. This is why, with a suitably high end EQ, you can reproduce that 'classic tube amp' sound... by adding distortion to the original recording (via your EQ). Am I the only person that has come to the conclusion that you can dial your EQ's / bass / trebble / etc. all down to zero, size your equipment properly, adjust your gains as needed, and have a slammin good time ?

e) **** amplifiers are the enemy of the gods. **** sounds like ****, and lasts about as long as a steaming pile of said **** beneath a tribe of flies in the hot summer sun.

arun1963

PoweredByDodge wrote: »

Why on god's earth is this still up for debate....

Cause it always will be. Think of the billions of $ of ad spend, The tens of thousands people involved (directly and indirectly) in making these amps, the tens of thousands involved in selling them and making a living and of course the tens of millions who either get swayed by the ad spend or just want the status of showing off the badge. All involved in the notion that, expensive amps = better sound.

We don't stand a chance.

PoweredByDodge wrote: »

Am I the only person that has come to the conclusion that you can dial your EQ's / bass / trebble / etc. all down to zero, size your equipment properly, adjust your gains as needed, and have a slammin good time ?

As long as you correct frequencies for L/R, then level match for balance and correct the speakers for phase. But since the genie is out of the lamp, I'm willing to try it your way just to see what happens.

PoweredByDodge

Out of 4 cars at the moment, the only one with any setting that is not set to zero is the Cadillac -- primarily due to a 'weak' system -- which was only done because a 'really nice' system would have meant butchering up the car.

arun1963

ok, so ure saying those who run a processor in the sound chain, or tweak the hell out of the sound with the hu's..........are running weak systems....:eek:


Popcorn time.....:)

PoweredByDodge

arun1963 wrote: »

ok, so ure saying those who run a processor in the sound chain, or tweak the hell out of the sound with the hu's..........are running weak systems....:eek:

.. Yes. If tweeters / mids / lows / and subs are matched properly, crossed over properly, amplified such that the overall system response is flat, then nothing else is needed -- unless it's a weak system.

arun1963

Sorry bro, but this is a hangover from the 2Ch side and wrong in a car environment......c'mon you're flaming me . You couldn't have been on this forum for this long and really believe that.

I think the objective in a car is not flat but balanced. Yes its flat in a home environment where the acoustics, your seating position allow the equipment with everything set at flat, to faithfully reproduce whats recorded.

Now suppose, you were to throw a whole lot of furniture, cabinets and obstacles that block and reflect the dispersion. All this stuff is between your sweet spot and the speakers. Assume your chair itself were to be moved to a place where you were much closer to one speaker.....its the balance thats out now and you can't run it flat anymore. You can move the speakers around a bit as you would with install and some things may work, others won't. But that doesn't solve the problem cause the junk between you and the speakers is still there. You need dsp to restore the balance.

How do you define weak?

PoweredByDodge

I'm not trying to flame you, at least not directly.

The front seated driver and passenger have the 'sweet spot' of seating positions, where properly placed mids and highs are right in front of them. Since subs aren't directional, you an get away with putting a sub almost (... almost) anywhere. As far as rear seated passengers... I don't know about you, but I'm not spending 5 to 10 grand to please the people in the back seat.

I whole heartedly believe in the 'flat is good in a car' idea.

The small time difference between the left and right speakers with regard to the driver should not be addressed, because fixing it will make it horrible for the passenger seat listener.

I am 100% against processing units, equalizers, and anything like them.

The 2 grand you spend on a processing unit could be better used to purchase quality parts, thereby negating the need for such a processing unit.

If you've got a 'factory replacement' style install, where there are coax speakers in the stock door locations, then ok, sure, you'll need a few db of trebble boost to make the vocals sound right... that's ok. But it is still a indication of a weak system.

I guess I define 'weak' as anything that needs a manipulation of the source recording in order to make it sound good.

audiobliss

TakeTheTime wrote: »

Video of (only) SR-mids playing on the Adcom.

Mark Knopfler?? Never heard that song!

MacLeod

Wow. Vinny Im gonna have to come down on the other side of ya on this one brother. It doesnt matter how well you select, match and power your gear, it cant compensate for all the crap in your car like hard glass, hard plastic dashboards and everything else that really screws up the sound after it leaves those speakers.

Now Im with ya that your goal should be to use the least amount of processing as possible and it would be ideal to just be listening to the speakers as the manufacturers engineers intended but thats just not possible in a car. If youre using stock speaker locations, youre going to have to use EQ'ing. Trust me on this, Ive been competing with stock speaker locations for 5 years. My system after a severe tune sounds 400 times better than when it does stock.

If you can move the speakers around in custom locations and use material like suede, carpet or foam as acoustic treatment then thatll also cut down on interference and the amount of EQ'ing youll need but you will still need some. Basically the closer to stock your speaker locations and install is, the more processing youll need.

The only car Ive ever seen that used almost zero EQ'ing was Mark Eldridge's NASCAR but that car was literally built AROUND the stereo system and not exactly anything you could drive to work and back.

Time alignment is not necessary if you use custom speaker locations and get your pathlenghts down to minimal levels but again, if youre using stock locations then you have to use it. If you leave it alone, granted it wont hurt the passengers side sound as much but using it will increase the drivers sound 3-4 times. Just by time alignment alone you can overcome and correct phase errors and cancellation. And while there are several 2 seat cars out there that sound equally good from both seats, the drivers side seat still doesnt sound as good as the 1 seat cars. The better the passenger side sounds, the worse the drivers side sound. And since my passengers arent helping me pay for any of this, Im going to want the best sound quality I can get from MY seat.

And Ive done RTA competitions where the goal is to get the actual in car response as flat as possible and I can assure you, the flatter that curve gets, the worse the system sounds. Flat sounds like ****, I promise you.

PoweredByDodge

... when's the next Polk-Fest. You'll have to listen to the last great Audiobahn rig.

MacLeod

Its a deal!

You still got the GOIN DEF license plate (or however the hell you spelled it)?

arun1963

Wow, thats got to be the longest post Macs written in a while.

But yeah, the option of listening to some nice cars would be great. It's really frustrating not having that option here. Have a chug-a-lug from my side if you'll do meet up for PF.

audiobliss

TakeTheTime wrote: »

Video of (only) SR-mids playing on the Adcom.

YOU HAVE TO TELL ME WHICH SONG THAT IS!!! I've listened to that clip over and over again, trying to make out the words. Each time I decide on what a line is saying, I look it up...and get no results! This is driving me crazy!

arun1963

I don't think its Dire Straits or Mark Knopfler......don't know the song either....not much help sorry

TakeTheTime

audiobliss wrote: »

YOU HAVE TO TELL ME WHICH SONG THAT IS!!! I've listened to that clip over and over again, trying to make out the words. Each time I decide on what a line is saying, I look it up...and get no results! This is driving me crazy!

Hey, the song is called "Cold Hard Town" - by Allan Taylor! Nice song, huh?

audiobliss

I don't know, I can't find a good place online to hear it, either! It does sound really cool in your video, though. I'll have to look sup some of his other stuff, as I've never heard of him. Thanks!

cam5860

I would get the new PDX amps. They are much better than last year's model. My buddy got the new 1200.1 and the birth sheet said actual power is 1418. They are putting out serious power this year for the footprint. Plus they are 20% thinner. They look better and they raised the damping factor to 1,000 from 500 on last years models. Check out this link there is a slew of updates on this years model. http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/pdx-m6/