Let's Talk Carts and Styli

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kharp1
kharp1 Posts: 3,453
in 2 Channel Audio
Ok, I received tons of good info under Turntables and I think I've decided on one...now, let's talk about cartridges and benefits of MM or MC. I'm not going to say what table I've decided on, but, let's assume it's a DD table very similar to the Technics 1200. I'm looking for a good cartridge that will fit my style of music (mostly 70's rock, some JT, Natalie Merchant, Steely Dan, etc) being played through a tube electronics. I like a rich, detailed, slightly forward sound without any edge in the upper mids. I'm not sure what budget will be...wanting to possibly get two carts to play with to compare and contrast. Tell what you like, why you like it and at what price point you think it should be picked up. Also, any other info you have on carts and styli let it rip. What is the process to installing a stylus? How do you know if it's installed properly? Thanks in advance.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,071
    edited August 2017
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    I voted already in another thread :)

    http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2340162#Comment_2340162

    I will add (since I never know when to shut up!) that, if you have an appropriately massive arm & the budget, the Ortofon SPU family are superb to my ear.
    https://www.ortofon.com/hifi/cartridges-ranges/spu

    spu-modeller-spu-collector-box.jpg?height=500&quality=80
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  • tratliff
    tratliff Posts: 1,670
    edited August 2017
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    I have been really happy with my SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC. Prior to that I had a Clearaudio Maestro. The Maestro was nice but not even close to the detail and warmth I get from the SoundSmith. The nice thing about the SoundSmith is they will recondition it for something like $250.

    Prices are all over the place depending if new or used. You might check with elusive disc. I know they have factory refurbs sometimes, from many manufactures. I think new price was around $1750.

    2 Channel Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II, 2 REL Carbon Limited, Norma Revo IPA-140B, Lumin U2 Mini, VPI Prime w/SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC, Modwright PH 150, Denon DP-59l w/Denon DL-301MKII, WAY Silver 3 Ana+ Speaker Cables, WAY Silver 4+ Interconnect Cables, AudioQuest Niagara 7000 w/Dragon and Hurricane Power Cables
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,071
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    Yes.
    Soundsmith = good :)

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  • soundfreak1
    soundfreak1 Posts: 3,388
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    What's the budget on the cart?
    Main Rig:
    Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
    Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
    Nakamichi EC100 Active xover
    MIT exp 1 ic's
    Perreaux SA33 class A preamp
    AQ kingcobra ic's
    OPPO 83 CDP
    Lehmann audio black cube SE phono pre, Audioquest phono wire (ITA1/1)
    Denon DP-1200 TT. AToc9ML MC cart.
    Monster HTS 3600 power conditioner
    ADS L1590/2 Biamped
    MIT exps2 speaker cable
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  • kharp1
    kharp1 Posts: 3,453
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    I don't have one yet. I don't want to go crazy right off the bat. Would like to get a good quality, good sounding moderate level cart to start with. I saw the Denon 103 waa about 250-300 and that seems fair for all the good things I've heard about it. Read good things about Dynavector and the 10x at 650 would be my max at this time.
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  • soundfreak1
    soundfreak1 Posts: 3,388
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    Before cart you have to make some decisions. Don't know for sure what phono preamp you're using in your preamp but would start off with an MC high output entry-level cartridge like a Denon dl-110 for instance dynavector also makes a couple models in this class I believe in their 10 x 2 and their 10 x 4 they may have a high output as well. Probably (the denon) one of the best bangs for the bucks in MC entry levels. Since its high output you don't need a head unit to start with. You can pick one up for $200 or less. Don't know of any cartridge equal price or less than touch it. That's just my experience. Once you get your feet wet and decide you like it you can always upgrade cartridges upgrade head units and you're Off to the Races any direction you want to go. This will get you started at a minimal cost and a maximum reward.
    Main Rig:
    Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
    Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
    Nakamichi EC100 Active xover
    MIT exp 1 ic's
    Perreaux SA33 class A preamp
    AQ kingcobra ic's
    OPPO 83 CDP
    Lehmann audio black cube SE phono pre, Audioquest phono wire (ITA1/1)
    Denon DP-1200 TT. AToc9ML MC cart.
    Monster HTS 3600 power conditioner
    ADS L1590/2 Biamped
    MIT exps2 speaker cable
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  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,984
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    Look around for a Denon DL110 for $75, be patient. Carts can be a big rabbit hole if you're spending money while getting your learn on. I may have a Shure M97XE that I'd sell very reasonably but not sure if I still have it. Spending $650 for a cart is not my idea of a party unless you're really sure you want (and need) it.
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 365
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    Denon DL110 and a Schiit Mani. Done.
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  • soundfreak1
    soundfreak1 Posts: 3,388
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    TForan wrote: »
    Denon DL110 and a Schiit Mani. Done.

    I'd call that a good start! (I'm a realist) LOL
    Main Rig:
    Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
    Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
    Nakamichi EC100 Active xover
    MIT exp 1 ic's
    Perreaux SA33 class A preamp
    AQ kingcobra ic's
    OPPO 83 CDP
    Lehmann audio black cube SE phono pre, Audioquest phono wire (ITA1/1)
    Denon DP-1200 TT. AToc9ML MC cart.
    Monster HTS 3600 power conditioner
    ADS L1590/2 Biamped
    MIT exps2 speaker cable
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  • jdjohn
    jdjohn Posts: 3,007
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    I don't see it mentioned here yet, but one consideration is replaceable styli. You will find that MM carts have removeable styli that can be replaced, and MC carts do not - you have to send it off (expensive) for re-tipping, or replace the cartridge altogether. Swapping out the stylus on an MM cart is a piece of cake, so no concerns there. And many MM carts with swappable styli provide an upgrade path for more advanced styli as your budget allows. Differences can be cantilever thickness and material used (straight tube vs tapered; aluminum vs boron), diamond shape (elliptical vs exotics like Shibata, micro-line/ridge, line contact), and nude vs bonded diamond mounting. Audio Technica is known for having stylus upgrade paths for certain 'families' of cartridges which have similar body styles.

    Cartridge/stylus compliance is another consideration. This is the suspension of the cantilever/needle. Some are stiff (low compliance), and some are softer/springier (high compliance). The best one to use is dependent on the weight of the tonearm. Heavier tonearms work best with stiff/low compliance, and lighter tonearms with softer/high compliance, so matching makes a difference.

    I would say decide on a turntable first, evaluate the tonearm, then look for cartridge(s) with compliance that match well. THEN depending on the cartridge (MM or MC), decide on a phono-stage. Better phono-stages have adjustable settings that allow for either MM or MC.

    Cartridge brands tend to have a 'house sound', so depending on your taste, you can be steered in certain directions. IME, Audio Technica tends to be brighter and more detailed in the highs; Shure tends to be warmer with somewhat rolled-off highs; Ortofons can be clinical and analytical....at least newer models I have heard...those older ones mhardy mentioned are a different matter B) . I've only heard one Denon - my DL301MkII - which is a low-output moving coil (LOMC), and although refined, IMO it is a little more laid back. I imagine the DL110 might be a little more authoritative, being a HOMC.

    You mentioned Dynavector, which are excellent. I have a Karat 23R which actually got damaged, and then repaired with a cactus thorn cantilever. My favorite MM is the Grace F9, and mine has a SoundSmith replacement stylus; the Grace OEM styli are supposedly great, but rare as hen's teeth, and there are some other stylus that will fit it as well. But that SS replacement I have sounds sooo good.

    In general, and again in IME, LOMC have a delicate signal which, when properly loaded with impedance and gain, sounds magical. I find them more forward in the upper-mids, and more subdued in lows and highs, but still tight. Whereas MM (and even HOMC), are more robust all around, and less fussy with loading. So what sounds 'best' can depend on the rest of the system and personal preference.

    A word on the Schiit Mani: they are nice units for the money, but if you have any suspicion of RFI in your area, you should avoid it. I have one gathering dust because there is an FM transmitter a few miles from my house, and it comes through on my Mani just enough to be annoying :s This is a known issue with these units, and sadly Schiit provides no solution. But I know there are LOTS of folks that love them and have no issues, so physical location might dictate whether it's a good option for you. Mine needs a good home!
    "This may not matter to you, but it does to me for various reasons, many of them illogical or irrational, but the vinyl hobby is not really logical or rational..." - member on Vinyl Engine
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator
    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
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  • Msabot1
    Msabot1 Posts: 2,098
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    Let's see...take your hand,grab some fine sand and let it trickle through your fingers..that is just the amount of choices that you have dude...but when all else fails...trust your ears!..LOL!..
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,071
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    The Mani is inexpensive and capable (i.e., adjustable); both of which are very admirable -- but opinions on its sonic performance are mixed. I have no ears-on experience, but based on feedback from folks whose ears I trust... it might not be the best choice for semi-serious users.
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  • mikeyb128
    mikeyb128 Posts: 2,885
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    Don't forget to use the resonance frequency calculator!

    rf = 159 / sqrt ((eff. mass + cart weight + fastener weight) * (compliance))

    - rf: resonant frequency in hz
    - eff. mass: rated by tonearm manufacturer
    - cart weight: rated by cartridge manufacturer, but if accurate scales exist, an actual weight value could be used
    - fastener weight: screws, nuts, spacers, washers, shims. They have weight and add to the mass over the stylus
    - compliance: rated by cartridge manufacturer

    :wink:
    2 channel:
    Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
    Theater:
    Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables.

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  • kharp1
    kharp1 Posts: 3,453
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    mikeyb128 wrote: »
    Don't forget to use the resonance frequency calculator!

    rf = 159 / sqrt ((eff. mass + cart weight + fastener weight) * (compliance))

    - rf: resonant frequency in hz
    - eff. mass: rated by tonearm manufacturer
    - cart weight: rated by cartridge manufacturer, but if accurate scales exist, an actual weight value could be used
    - fastener weight: screws, nuts, spacers, washers, shims. They have weight and add to the mass over the stylus
    - compliance: rated by cartridge manufacturer

    :wink:

    Ok, I quit right here. NO MORE MATH! Got suckered in to taking a crane certification course through work and it was like being back in college. NO MORE MATH!

    Think I'll get a cassette deck
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  • soundfreak1
    soundfreak1 Posts: 3,388
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    Oh yeah cassette deck that'll solve your problems nothing like trying to find cassette tape somebody who has the equipment and can set the Azimuth on the heads every year not to mention pinch rollers and rubber grommets and all the stuff in the belts you can run you just can't hide
    Main Rig:
    Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
    Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
    Nakamichi EC100 Active xover
    MIT exp 1 ic's
    Perreaux SA33 class A preamp
    AQ kingcobra ic's
    OPPO 83 CDP
    Lehmann audio black cube SE phono pre, Audioquest phono wire (ITA1/1)
    Denon DP-1200 TT. AToc9ML MC cart.
    Monster HTS 3600 power conditioner
    ADS L1590/2 Biamped
    MIT exps2 speaker cable
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,071
    edited August 2017
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    It's actually just arithmetic; take a bunch of numbers and plug into an equation; an answer pops out the other end. (I would recommend "dimensional analysis", though -- it makes it way easier to tell if one plugged the right numbers into the right places!)

    Mathematics is for (ahem) real men. Or women. Or transgender people. But they gotta think math.
    I don't think math.
    My son does, though :)

    https://doctorhardy.wordpress.com/
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,486
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    I know Mikey, wtf, man?!?
    I disabled signatures.
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  • dromunds
    dromunds Posts: 9,984
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    You won't get any good cassette tapes unless you record from vinyl. Lol
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,071
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    speaking of "carts and styli"...

    hifi_1954_00.jpg

    du_202_duette_portable_1800934.jpg
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  • soundfreak1
    soundfreak1 Posts: 3,388
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    dromunds wrote: »
    You won't get any good cassette tapes unless you record from vinyl. Lol

    Yep that's what we did way back when.
    Main Rig:
    Krell KAV 250a biamped to mid/highs
    Parasound HCA1500A biamped to lows
    Nakamichi EC100 Active xover
    MIT exp 1 ic's
    Perreaux SA33 class A preamp
    AQ kingcobra ic's
    OPPO 83 CDP
    Lehmann audio black cube SE phono pre, Audioquest phono wire (ITA1/1)
    Denon DP-1200 TT. AToc9ML MC cart.
    Monster HTS 3600 power conditioner
    ADS L1590/2 Biamped
    MIT exps2 speaker cable
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  • Inscrutabl0915
    Inscrutabl0915 Posts: 47
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    mikeyb128 wrote: »
    Don't forget to use the resonance frequency calculator!
    Yes, if you already have your tonearm picked out, you need to go here (no math, just plug in the numbers):

    https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php

    to get a matching cartridge, and some will be taken out of play (pun). you would like to get resonance in the 8-12 hz range.

    If you do not have a specific table/arm yet, then you can pick cartridge first and then find an arm that matches well (though that's usually a bit backwards ... unless you have a particular one you are in love with.
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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,486
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    mikeyb128 wrote: »
    Don't forget to use the resonance frequency calculator!
    Mikey, what's all this about?
    I'm Polking around a bit in reading, but Cliff's Notes version?
    I disabled signatures.
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  • kharp1
    kharp1 Posts: 3,453
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    Ok, I think I've decided on the new Pioneer PL-1000. My research says not much wrong with it except it's a direct drive and that just automatically puts it on the wrong side of the fight for snobs, um, I mean purists. :)

    I'll use that arm for the time being while I'm getting my feet wet and continue to do research with some actual hands on experience.
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,353
    edited August 2017
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    To each, their own... I'm in the LOMC, MicroLinear with passive gain SUT and MM phono stage camp. Been in other camps, love this one.

    We need cartridge action pics...

    Sumiko Blackbird...

    7bhcgruzf07g.jpg

    Dynavector Karat 17D3...

    wevg60odt4ff.jpg

    Denon aluminum bodied 103R...

    ppluwgjrgbj0.jpg

    My current fav, AT33PTG/II.....

    dece3gmgi5mt.jpg





    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • mikeyb128
    mikeyb128 Posts: 2,885
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    msg wrote: »
    mikeyb128 wrote: »
    Don't forget to use the resonance frequency calculator!
    Mikey, what's all this about?
    I'm Polking around a bit in reading, but Cliff's Notes version?

    Hehe! First time I read about it I was like huh? Turns out it's super easy. I've even got the formula memorized. Never know when you need it on the fly!
    2 channel:
    Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
    Theater:
    Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables.

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  • msg
    msg Posts: 9,486
    edited August 2017
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    SCompRacer wrote: »
    To each, their own... I'm in the LOMC, MicroLinear with passive gain SUT and MM phono stage camp. Been in other camps, love this one.

    We need cartridge action pics...
    Sumiko Blackbird...
    Dynavector Karat 17D3...
    Denon aluminum bodied 103R...
    My current fav, AT33PTG/II.....
    [gush]
    Veritable beautes. That Blackbird and the AT... wow.
    I'm curious to visit this camp. Are all of those MicroLinear or just the AT?

    I thought this was a pretty good primer on stylus types, pros/cons, etc.
    https://www.sound-smith.com/articles/stylus-shape-information
    I disabled signatures.
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,353
    edited August 2017
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    The Blackbird had a Low mass elliptical, the 17D3 was a Micro-Ridge, the 103R is a micron round and the AT is MicroLinear.

    Yes, Soundsmith has a good write up!

    I had installed an AT33 for someone and liked the cartridge so I tried the PTG/II.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,120
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    Another vote for the Blackbird, but 95 percent of its performance can be had in the Sumiko Bluepoint EvoIII for half the price.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • kharp1
    kharp1 Posts: 3,453
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    SCompRacer wrote: »
    To each, their own... I'm in the LOMC, MicroLinear with passive gain SUT and MM phono stage camp. Been in other camps, love this one.

    We need cartridge action pics...

    Sumiko Blackbird...

    7bhcgruzf07g.jpg

    Dynavector Karat 17D3...

    wevg60odt4ff.jpg

    Denon aluminum bodied 103R...

    ppluwgjrgbj0.jpg

    My current fav, AT33PTG/II.....

    dece3gmgi5mt.jpg





    Ahhh, prono!
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  • kharp1
    kharp1 Posts: 3,453
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    This is where things might slow down for me, I had some knowledge of tables, have none on this stuff. The learning curve will be a bit steeper.
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