Let's Talk Carts and Styli

mhardy6647

I'd have gone PLX-1000 instead of Technics if not for that wow/flutter misinformation debacle that turned out to be a misprint unchecked for ages...

Ain't that the truth! Folks were throwin' the Pioneer under the bus for its w/f specification (which was a typo) without even listening to one. Morons.

machone

I have no complaints with mine. I would like to know how the DL110 works for you.

mikeyb128

I understand setting up a table seems like a daunting task, is that what scared you off the marantz?? I don't have experience with either table, but man those marantz/clear audio tables are sweet. I would have gone that direction if it were me, or grabbed a genuine SL1200. I do understand the want for a "turn key" table, set up and ready to go out of the box.

mikeyb128

After some reading looks like the pioneer sounds better than the Marantz, and seems to be lots of problems with the marantz tone arms. Interesting.

Marfly

Technics SL-1210M5G, Dynavector 10X5 HOMC Cartridge & Sumiko Headshell. KABUSA Polymat and Herbies, Way Excellent II, Clamp and called it a day.

kharp1

^^^Looks good to me.^^^ I have to say that if Technics were still making the 1200 I probably would have bought one. It's a classic and proven to be a tank with supposedly good sq. So many of them have seen some kind of DJ use that I stayed away. This is an entry point. See what's what and how I like it.

I can't thank all of you enough for the great, GREAT information you provided. You made what seemed like a monumental undertaking in to something I felt like I could do. I think the suggestion to get a good DD table and start from there was good advice. If I don't like this I have no fear of losing much money if I resell. Unbelievable how much there is to know about tables and accessories, setup and maintenance. I have felt overwhelmed at times. Thanks to you fine enablers...

dromunds

Set up not that bad just sounds intimidating at first. You won't have a problem just take your time.

Mike Reeter

kharp1 wrote: »

^^^Looks good to me.^^^ I have to say that if Technics were still making the 1200 I probably would have bought one. It's a classic and proven to be a tank with supposedly good sq. So many of them have seen some kind of DJ use that I stayed away. This is an entry point. See what's what and how I like it.

Oh, but Technics is still making the "New" 1200. Only difference is the price of Admission!

http://djtechtools.com/2017/01/05/technics-launches-sl-1200gr-turntable-ces-still-2000/

Personally, I would rather own your Pioneer and if compatible, mate it to a Denon DL-103R. A great sounding Cartridge at a very good price.

I purchased one from this seller with no issues what so ever, received it within a week and in perfect condition.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-DL-103R-Low-Output-MC-Cartridge-Made-in-Japan/282306779103?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

mhardy6647

mikeyb128 wrote: »

I understand setting up a table seems like a daunting task, is that what scared you off the marantz?? I don't have experience with either table, but man those marantz/clear audio tables are sweet. I would have gone that direction if it were me, or grabbed a genuine SL1200. I do understand the want for a "turn key" table, set up and ready to go out of the box.

The TT-15S1 is very easy to set up; indeed, it's not really terribly adjustable (other than the fact that the VTA has to be set "manually"; i.e., the arm height has to be eyeballed when it's installed). The headshell only allows three choices of mounting offset, e.g.

The only tricky thing with a used one (from my experience) was realizing that the bearing needed a drop of oil when the platter was (re) installed. Mine was noisy until I sussed that out (which reflects more on me than the tt).

SCompRacer

mhardy6647 wrote: »

The only tricky thing with a used one (from my experience) was realizing that the bearing needed a drop of oil when the platter was (re) installed.

Just curious, where do you buy your bearing oil?

Wasn't it Rega that used the term 'dollops'....kinda like an exaggerated drop?

mhardy6647

SCompRacer wrote: »

mhardy6647 wrote: »

The only tricky thing with a used one (from my experience) was realizing that the bearing needed a drop of oil when the platter was (re) installed.

Just curious, where do you buy your bearing oil?

Wasn't it Rega that used the term 'dollops'....kinda like an exaggerated drop?

The tt came with a little bottle. I don't know its particulars.

A dollop, eh? I would guess Linn might specify a "wee dram"

msg

Mike Reeter wrote: »

Personally, I would rather own your Pioneer and if compatible, mate it to a Denon DL-103R. A great sounding Cartridge at a very good price.

I purchased one from this seller with no issues what so ever, received it within a week and in perfect condition.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-DL-103R-Low-Output-MC-Cartridge-Made-in-Japan/282306779103

Good heads up, Mike!
Curious, was reading about the DL-103 and newer DL-103R, which touts significant improvements.

The Ebay option is such a good deal vs that over Needle Doctor's price, $260 vs $450 that it makes me wonder how/why and whether it's genuine? Any thoughts on that? Sure looks legit, though.
http://www.needledoctor.com/Welcome?search=dl-103r

mhardy6647

Might easily be grey market.
By some reports, the differences between the unsuffixed 103 and the "R" are pretty minor. Something about damping -- although I am under the impression that the "R" is more compatible with moderate mass arms than the unsuffixed cartridge. I've got no data on this, though.

Some years back, a company called Comet Supply had brief fame for selling Denons (supposedly legitimately obtained and sold by them) at outrageous discount prices.

I bought my DL-103 from them: no fuss, no muss, no bother: $118.
Best $118 cartridge extant, too, I'd opine

Dawgfish

You can get the 103 and 103R on the auction site for around $170 and $225 respectively. There's a place in LA called GRG Audio that says slightly used 103s and 103Rs in the $125 range. I have bought several cartridges from them with good results.

The main difference between the 103 and 103R is the 103R uses 6-9s copper wire. As a result the 103R has lower impedance. The 103R generally sounds best loaded at 30-100 ohms while the 103 sounds best loaded at about 150-300 ohms, so keep that in mind with what will match your phono preamp or step up transformer the best. Also the 103R has a little lower output verses the 103. The 103 and 103R both have the same compliance, so there's no difference in how they match up with tonearms mass wise. The 103S, 103D, and 103M have higher compliance than the 103 and 103R, and are better matches with medium to lighter tonearms. The 103 and 103R match up better with medium to heavy tonearms.

mikeyb128

I was told by my dealer the 103R has more treble extension, so if you have a laid back system the 103R would work well for it. The 103 is slightly more laid back, but both keep the same tone.

I have about 15 hours on my 103 and I quite like it. For the 200 bucks I paid in Canadian funds it is well worth the price.

Mike Reeter

msg wrote: »

Mike Reeter wrote: »

Personally, I would rather own your Pioneer and if compatible, mate it to a Denon DL-103R. A great sounding Cartridge at a very good price.

I purchased one from this seller with no issues what so ever, received it within a week and in perfect condition.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-DL-103R-Low-Output-MC-Cartridge-Made-in-Japan/282306779103

Good heads up, Mike!
Curious, was reading about the DL-103 and newer DL-103R, which touts significant improvements.

The Ebay option is such a good deal vs that over Needle Doctor's price, $260 vs $450 that it makes me wonder how/why and whether it's genuine? Any thoughts on that? Sure looks legit, though.
http://www.needledoctor.com/Welcome?search=dl-103r

Scott, The best I can tell the Cartridge came in a Factory Packed box and looks and sounds legit. I've read of this seller on other Forums and he's been selling cartridges for quite a while, with nothing but praise from other buyers.

It very well may be a Grey Marker item, but I don't care. It's this best 260.00 I've spent on audio for quite some time.

mikeyb128

Is there actually any counterfeit DL103's out there?

Mike Reeter

mikeyb128 wrote: »

Is there actually any counterfeit DL103's out there?

The Denon that I purchased is not counterfeit...I sent it to Terence at Paradox Audio where he de-bodied the Cartridge, tested it for output, and installed it into one of his Pulse Bodies.

He's performed this task hundreds of times, the Cartridge I sent him was/is legit.

mhardy6647

Grey market cartridges are the real thing, just cartridges brought in to a market outside of the normal business channels. The only 'real' issue with a grey market item, practically speaking, is that the distributor and probably even the manufacturer wouldn't honor the warranty.

Note I am not even suggesting the cartridge in question is grey market -- I just wanted to make it clear to folks that not all "too cheap to be true" deals are utterly fradulent counterfeits == there are more "ethically fraudulent" ways for it to happen too!

mikeyb128

I know they're getting pretty good at counterfeits, but I feel like a phono cartridge wouldn't exactly be easy to do.

Mike Reeter

mhardy6647 wrote: »

Grey market cartridges are the real thing, just cartridges brought in to a market outside of the normal business channels. The only 'real' issue with a grey market item, practically speaking, is that the distributor and probably even the manufacturer wouldn't honor the warranty.

Note I am not even suggesting the cartridge in question is grey market -- I just wanted to make it clear to folks that not all "too cheap to be true" deals are utterly fradulent counterfeits == there are more "ethically fraudulent" ways for it to happen too!

I don't doubt that the 103R I have is not a Grey Market product, but like I said, I don't care at this price. I'll take the chance that it won't have any Warranty issues, and will be just fine.

If I were buying a more expensive item, then I would might have some concerns about an "Authorized Dealer".

mhardy6647

I don't disagree -- I figure the biggest risk to these cartridges is snappin' off the cantilever

Mike Reeter

mhardy6647 wrote: »

I don't disagree -- I figure the biggest risk to these cartridges is snappin' off the cantilever

LOL, exactly.

inscrutable

kharp1 wrote: »

I ended up with a new Pioneer PLX-1000 table and a Denon DL-110 cartridge

Congrats on the rig ... enjoy!

msg wrote: »

That, and a few tables with loose bearings (not a big deal apparently),

Think HerbR did a good review in S'phile, and did have to adjust the bearings (carefully), loved it afterwards.

Wife wants the system in the living room to have a more contemporary aesthetic, so thinking of a new semi-entry table there, and considering this one.

Anyone know if the headshell is interchangeable with those on the vintage Pioneers? I have 3 of those shells for 2 other tables (518xd & 530), and would be nice to be able to swap cartridges.

mhardy6647

In fairness, I think that the entry-level mimimalists tts from Pro-Ject, Music Hall, Rega, etc. fit the criterion of "a more contemporary aesthetic" better than the SL-1200-esque PLX-1000... don't they?






I am in no way suggesting these are better choices from a hifi perspective -- just thinkin' WAF, you know?

machone

I agree that those tables are more elegant in their design. As DD tables go I think PLX-1000 is a great looking table.

Dawgfish

inscrutable wrote: »

kharp1 wrote: »

I ended up with a new Pioneer PLX-1000 table and a Denon DL-110 cartridge

Congrats on the rig ... enjoy!

msg wrote: »

That, and a few tables with loose bearings (not a big deal apparently),

Think HerbR did a good review in S'phile, and did have to adjust the bearings (carefully), loved it afterwards.

Wife wants the system in the living room to have a more contemporary aesthetic, so thinking of a new semi-entry table there, and considering this one.

Anyone know if the headshell is interchangeable with those on the vintage Pioneers? I have 3 of those shells for 2 other tables (518xd & 530), and would be nice to be able to swap cartridges.

The headshell will work just fine on the PLX-1000, you may have to tweak the alignment of the cartridges though in the headshells if the tonearms are different lengths between the different tables.

msg

Man, you guys are killing me on these Denon carts. I'm beyond curious.

Kerry, with all the information flying between this and your turntable thread, I'm sort of getting a second run at drinking from the turntable/stylii/vinyl firehose. It's very exciting.

First time I tried vinyl in late summer 2013, it just didn't take for lack of desired result, and I left off it for a couple years. I wasn't ready. I was seriously lacking in audio education in general at the time, and especially so where vinyl is concerned. I had an AT-LP120. Knew nothing of setup. And thought a dry microfiber cloth would be a great idea for cleaning. Like that was all I needed. I think I actually added more dust to the records after wiping, since I was essentially charging the record with 1.21 Jigawatts of static, which caused every dust particle in my house to make a beeline for my records as if being sucked into a black hole. It was too soon in my audio journey, and I wasn't committed.

I started in again around a year or so ago after finding a neat little record shop down at the beach here, seriously obsessed with it for several months. Just so you guys know, it had nothing to do with the hot chick working in the shop.

I got settled down for a while several months later after I landed a table and phono pre, but I'm getting all excited again, giving more thought to my setup now that I'm able to better digest some of the stuff you guys are talking about, since I have some hands/ears-on experience and time under my belt, having learned a few things over the past year. With so much technology/science/design/media quality factoring/etc(s) into it all, and then to factor in the parts availability/options, it's really easy - and likely - to become overwhelmed when first starting out.

So.
I've been reading some feedback/reviews on these Denon carts on NeedleDoctor, SteveHoffman, and AK. I like what I'm reading about detail extraction, trackability, etc., of these carts. Seems like the 103/103R and 110 seem to be the solid robust baseline performers.

DENON DL-103; LOMC

First MC cartridge; loved by studios and broadcasters for great sound, excellent tracking?

The DL-103 is a living legend in audio product history. Denon collaborated with the Japan Broadcasting Corporation Technical Research Laboratories in 1963 to make this extremely reliable, high performance low-output phono cartridge. As the first moving coil cartridge, the DL-103 will always be the standard of reliability in every aspect, even the price. From quality inspectors at EMI and Decca, to recording studios, broadcasters, and music lovers around the world, the DL-103 is synonymous with great sound. The mark of the Denon is excellent tracking, as pops and ticks are pushed farther into the sonic background.

DENON DL-103R; LOMC

The 103R is supposed to extract greater detail

The DL-103R is an updated version of the classic DL-103. It provides improved sound by using 6N copper coils wound with precision to the cantilever shaft. Sonic improvements over the DL-103 include heightened detail-extraction, more bass depth, and enhanced clarity across the board.

DENON DL-110; HOMC

Elliptical stylus helps reduce surface noise? The Shure M97xE I have also has an elliptical stylus, but I find it a bit 'covered' compared to a Grado Prestige Green, which is more detailed, though it is also more vocal with surface noise. This Denon DL-110 is supposed to offer the benefits of the elliptical stylus, offering surface noise reduction without losing the detail and clarity. Curious how the DL-110 works for higher frequently laden music genres like rock. The Shure is comfortable with this kind of music.

To get the maximum enjoyment out of your vinyl collection, check out the DL-110 phono cartridge. Its high output allows you to use it interchangeably with a moving magnet phono input. The DL-110 has a way of getting into the grooves and extracting the information contained therein with total authority.

DENON DL-301MKII; LOMC

Anyone ever tried this one?
LOMC with elliptical stylus vs the conical/round of the 103/103R?
Seems a combination of 103/103R stylus and 110 cart, only in a LOMC with higher frequency range?


I was overwhelmed early on with all this business of MM vs MC, HOMC and LOMC, SUT, Phono Preamp, Cartridge Loading, Cables Capacitance, etc. Some of this I still need a good bit of education on. Particularly curious about the LOMC/SUT/MM combination.

I haven't had the time to go through these two threads with time to properly take in the info and contributions, but just have to say, wow guys, what a fantastic collection of combined knowledge and experience shared here.

msg

One other thing I noticed was people talking about how when switching from MM to MC carts, owners noticed a drop in bass presence. Explanations seemed to be that MM carts are just bass heavy/bloated. Could it simply be that MC carts just present better in the mids and upper frequencies, and that the balance makes it seem like there's a drop in bass presence?

agfrost

msg wrote: »

One other thing I noticed was people talking about how when switching from MM to MC carts, owners noticed a drop in bass presence. Explanations seemed to be that MM carts are just bass heavy/bloated. Could it simply be that MC carts just present better in the mids and upper frequencies, and that the balance makes it seem like there's a drop in bass presence?

I am not the final word on this, but I believe I ruptured my spleen due to the "bass presence" of Rich's (SCompRacer's) vinyl setup, an AT LOMC whose model escapes me at the moment.