Interesting Amplifier Article

Frank Z · April 2003

Found this link over at HTF.

http://www.mastersonaudio.com/audio/20020901.htm

brettw22 · April 2003

Heya Frank.......

Good to see ya around from time to time.........Don't be so on the DL man.....

Have a good weekend............

HBombToo · April 2003

An Excerpt Thanks ta Frank!

[I wondered in that report: "So where are all these phantom differences coming from? First, from the imaginations of people who think there should be differences, and so conjure them up in the absence of proper facilities for proving they don't exist -- and egged on by the purple prose of the little super-audiophile magazines . . . who evidently must prove the superiority of their golden ears over others' by hearing faults that don't exist and condemning perfectly good products on their strength."]

There is a God!!!

Bombed

pjdami · April 2003

Well. I must be a "believer" then.

At lower volumes, I would tend to generally agree that amps may sound similar in the same room, with the same speakers, music, etc.

However, at higher volumes one would easily be able to tell which amps are the puppies sitting on the porch and which ones are the big dogs running.

If I wasn't a believer I'd still have my Onkyo TD-SX494 sitting in my living room.

Heck, that dude actually left an email address too???

P.

HBombToo · April 2003

Originally posted by pjdami

At lower volumes, I would tend to generally agree that amps may sound similar in the same room, with the same speakers, music, etc.

P.

another excerpt:
[Ideally, a power amplifier should have no effect on an audio signal except magnitude; otherwise, it should be a totally neutral device.]

my point!

mantis · April 2003

From that article,

Ideally, a power amplifier should have no effect on an audio signal except magnitude; otherwise, it should be a totally neutral device. But no audio component is perfect, and there are always tiny measurable differences from one device to the next. The question is: can we reliably hear these? And if not, who cares?

I wish this where true but it isn't.Amps sound different.If they didn't we would all own the same one at the lowest price.The only thing would be what preamp to use and why.Features,connectability,and be the end of it..

Listen and you'll see..............

RuSsMaN · April 2003

Might as well talk speaker wire now. The are fans on both side of the fence on this one.

What I find amusing is those that don't know, don't know they don't know. Follow?

Cheers,
Russ

mantis · April 2003

Not sure where or what your saying here,but without listening for yourself,how could you possibly know anything???People all have there opnions about sound/money/whatever......

Wire is a another story........Same say and some don't....
Some listen and some don't
Some buy on others listen and some buy on there own listen....

Do what you must

pjdami · April 2003

Very true Russ,

those that don't know, don't know they don't know. Follow?

I can make an analogy to a famous saying I use at work, "there are those people that make things happen, then there are others that watch things happen, and finally there are those that wonder what the hell happened."

One doesn't know unless one goes and listens and tries something else out and then you are like "wow what is that!".

P.

Frank Z · April 2003

I think that this article really illustrates what is fairly common knowledge. Some people swear that they hear an audible difference, even when an A/B comparison proves their assertions to be wrong. Does this make them simpletons that have bought into a particular type of hype regarding one brand over another, not always. What I got from the article is that audiophiles are an extremely diverse group, and that regardless of what others may say or prove, Group A will disagree with Group B, Group C will voice violant objections, Group D will consider any alternative point of view, Etc, Etc.

It's amazing that even when presented with the results of an A/B comparison that shows one result, some people refuse to accept the findings. A very old saying comes to mind, Minds are like parachutes, they only work when opened.

Truth be told Everyone is guilty of closed mindedness on on subject or another, politics, family, religion, A/V, to name a few. Hell I've got my predetermined opinions about alot of things that others might find wacky!

For all of you that have made it to this point of my long winded ramblings I submit the following suggestion. Let's all re-read the article and, without being prejudiced by our preconcieved thoughts about what we hear, try to open our parachutes and perhaps find a small slice of common ground to land on!

Hell I'll even jump first....Geronimoooooe!!

mantis · April 2003

It's a good read Frank, no douts there.
I can hear big differences between amps.Now granted it that they are mated with there matching Preamp...I have conducted these types of tests many many times.They do sound different,weather better/worse or just plain different.

I would like to know what others have listened to and felt that there was no differnece in sound quality.I will agree with this,Alot of recievers sound close to the same.Like Pioneer Elite and Marantz,very close in sound quality.B&K and Rotel however sound very different.Not worse or better,just different.
Without sounding like an ****,one needs to know what they are listening for.Like they way a cymbol sounds on one amp,then switch and listen how the tone has changed.Even voices,this might be an easier way of listening to different amps/combo's/receivers/whatever.....take one voice and play it on 2 or more different brands rated the same or close to the same........I'm almost positive that anyone with good hearing will beable to hear something sounding different.Ears don't lie.
prejudiced ...............well I can see where that may come in from time to time.Hell we all have our favorite brands.......but with A-B demoing,truth be hold......in the ear.....

RuSsMaN · April 2003

Originally posted by mantis
Now granted it that they are mated with there matching Preamp...

Re-Read the article, the pre-amp stages were kept the same. At least for this topic, using different pre/sources/cables was not done, only the amp(s) was changed.

Cheers,
Rooster

madmax · April 2003

I have to admit I don't agree with the article. Below is a list of amps I have tried over and over. They all sound different. The preamp and rest of the system stay the same, I just plug in different amps depending on my mood. From best to worst is:

*Manley lab-100 100w mono blocks X2 (tubes)
*Soundcraftsmen RA-7502 (SS)
*Soundcraftsmen (I forget, the one with all the leds) (SS)
*Jolida 302A (modified) (Tubes)
*Jolida 502A
*Carver Silver 9t mono blocks X2 (SS)
*Carver PT-1250 (SS)
*Houston with KT100 tubes
*Jolida 302A (non-modified one)
*Carver Sunfire (SS)
*HH Scott EL-84

You got me on why people can't seem to hear a difference. I'll go as far as to say different amps have a different playlist that sounds the best (or the worst). Also, different ones sound better on different speakers. All at the same volume levels obviously.

madmax???

pjdami · April 2003

Well, this is truly an interesting thread.

I have an experience to share. About two months ago I was using my Yamaha receiver as a pre / pro using my NAD C270 power amp for my mains and the receivers amps for the center and surrounds. Now at the time i had RT35i's as mains and a CSi245 for the center. Timbre matching mains and center with the same exact trilaminate tweeter. I had to use the variable gain on the NAD amp to adjust the gain so that I could calibrate the system so that the mains weren't louder than the center and surrounds etc. I then fine tuned by using the receiver's built in calibrations with a calibration DVD. While doing the calibration using the receiver and a sound meter I could obviously here a difference in pitch when I moved from left main to center to right main. The center had a different pitch to it. I heard the same thing when I used the receiver's built in noise generator. A difference in pitch. Now granted, the RT35i's and CSi245 are not the same exact speaker and they have different crossovers I would imagine and so forth, but the drivers are almost the same. I don't know; maybe a bad comparison.

I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt though when I bought my PT5 preamp and hooked it up to the NAD that the sound was totally different than using the Yamaha as a pre / pro. I'm willing to bet money on that. It does raise another age old question about is it the preamplification stage that is more important or the amplification stage.

Getting back to the article and data / statistics. I wonder if the speakers being used or speaker wire was the "weakest link". If the speakers weren't really discriminating and revealing then one could "fudge" this test to some degree. It's like another old saying that one could use stastistics and pretty much prove or disprove anything based on how the data was generated and / or gathered.

VR3 · April 2003

So your saying in this argument, that if I went out and bought a Mcintosh Amp, and an Adcom Amp, that they will sound EXACTLY THE EFFIN SAME? HOLY SHITTE! All along, I have been totally wrong and I should go out and buy a Jensen set of speakers and a Stripped down amp that has receiver amps in the box. Holy shitte muslim this is amazing! I have heard a Mcintosh Tube Amp, and I will put it on the bible that, that amp would completely smash my Adcom amp into the ground and laugh, if not spit and jump up and down on it. There was no comparison. End of Story. All amps sound the same - el the internal PE amps sound terrible in comparison to the Adcom. HAHAHHAHA! I really need sleep!

Frank Z · April 2003

Sid,
Read the damn article before you go off the deep end!

VR3 · April 2003

Originally posted by Frank Z
Sid,
Read the damn article before you go off the deep end!

I was in sarcasim heaven, I had to take the dive captain, I had my floaties on man! I need sleep, im wired on cafeine, fetch me a line will ya? IM DROWNING HERE. Ignore my post, its sarcasim loaded and I had to take that deep deep deep dive!

madmax · April 2003

I understand we are talking about like quality amps. I think. Well, all of mine are like quality, not $35000 each or $150 each. Mostly $1000 to $4000 each. BTW, some of the cheaper ones seem to perform better. I think the whole premise of the article is flawed. Given some different speakers or wires or whatever the difference between amps could be huge.
madmax

jrausch · April 2003

I think one of the buying qualities that were described at the end of the article, should also include the amps ability to actually drive the speakers in the system. The noticeable differences we perceive are how the amp responds to the speakers impedance stability and efficiency. The differences we hear are the way the amp produces the energy to drive the speakers load to varying degrees. The point that I think the article was trying to suggest was that different amps power in general doesnt sound like anything and amps probably dont add any noticeable sonic characteristics to the signal. So I firmly believe that different amps can change the way a same set of speakers sound in its ability to drive the load and not because it adds character along the signal path coming into it. If this doesnt make sense to you, I may have to change my prescription.

HBombToo · April 2003

I think we are getting way of track here in my opinion. I just re- read the article and the same thing popped into my shallow little HBomb noodle, "beware of marketing hype!".

There are many different classes of amps and materials used in each are manufactured on a floor after bulk components have been ordered. These components all have tolerances which can, I would bet, cause perceivable differences within the manufacturing run. Quality control, technical ability of the people on the floor right on through the engineering staff must maintain a consistancy that will provide the level of quality we expect in a product.

Read through some of the Quality Assurance pages that Audio Research does on there tubes before installed into one of there amazing amplifiers. Thats what a consumer should expect.

HBomb and his little noodle!

DarqueKnight · April 2003

Quote from Masters on Audio and Video:

"But so far no one has proved conclusively -- to me, anyway -- that sound quality should be a factor in buying a power amplifier."

I don't doubt that the person who wrote this really can't perceive any sonic differences in the majority of amplifiers. Subtleties, nuances, and fine details are not important to the majority of people. If they were, there would be more demand for higher-end audio gear.

There have been few real innovations in audio aplifier design since the invention of the transistor decades ago. There are those who would argue that the transistor was not an innovation, but a step back. I'll leave that debate to the tubes vs. transistor theorists.

Amplifiers of the same wattage can and do differ in sound, sometimes substantially, depending on the circuit topology, power supply design, kinds of parts used (e.g. MOSFET vs. Bipolar transistor, etc.) and most importantly, the quality of the parts and the care with which the amplifer is assembled.

For me, there comes a point where I have to spend a ridiculous amount of money to get a disproportionately small increase in sound quality. I prefer not to spend past the point of diminishing returns. The recording quality of most records and CD's (that I have heard personally) is CRAP anyway, so too much resolution is not always a good thing.

:cool:

rickfaldo · April 2003

Interesting reading you all. It appears to a novice like myself you all buy into the hype the article is written about(excuse the pun). Everyone has an opinion of why his or her system, or any system is better than another...this is known as subjectivity. We hear and believe what makes us feel good about our investment.....and that's okay. But the article clearly states findings using a scientific blind test that there is no proof one amp sounds significantly better than another of equal power on the test system. How can we argue that point knowing we have our own biases in branding? The only arguements I hear are all totally subjective....have any of you conducted a similar test to the article? Pretty hard to do I would think without the authors resources. With all the millions of combinations of audio, video equipment available out there, undoubtedly all combinations are unique and sound different. That doesn't negate the findings of this article.
Let's allow the author to have his opinion and we all can have ours and maybe live happily ever after.

Cheers,
Rick

joe logston · April 2003

i always said that its the power you have in the amp, the more the power the less the speaker will clip and distrort, and you get better sound with more power, so a good powerd amp will drive a hard to drive speakers better than a low powerd amp will. so pick a easer to drive speaker or get more power, i think that the 4ohm lsi-line speakers needs 200w amp to drive them, it dosent hurt to have to much power, than not having to little. the only differance in amps are power rating & built quilty, all other stuff is hocus polcus.

dam good read frankz

Frank Z · April 2003

Holy Tweeters Batman!!
Great responses and no blood letting!
Hey...Have you guy's matured without letting me know!
Great to see a civil discussion for a change!

mantis · April 2003

Suprise.....................................

HBombToo · April 2003

Originally posted by Frank Z
Have you guy's matured without letting me know!
Great to see a civil discussion for a change!

Nope! and for a change I figured what the hell. Beware the mighty marketeer is my opinion. I agree with Joe Logston with his clipping point but my opinion has not changed that under equal conditions without pushing an amp past its limits it is hard pressed to tell the difference.

I will leave it at the point of diminishing returns is very personel.

Evil twin doing his hbomb impersonation.

burdette · April 2003

I agree with Mantis.. you need to listen. But I disagree with the effect of doing so. If *you* can't hear a difference, then for all practical purposes, there isn't one. People who believe there are differences *will* hear them, whether there are or not.

Most importantly, if you like your own system it doesn't matter what ANYONE else says. If someone slams your amp, are you so fragile that you'll then doubt your own ears and previous satisfaction with your gear?

I got my first taste of this sort of ... controversy.. long ago when Stereo Review did double-blind listening tests on zip cord vs. expensive speaker wire. No differences. You can imagine the letters they received ... but even the self-proclaimed golden-eared audiosnobs failed to discern between the two. The explanation by those who believe there are differences was, of course, that the test was flawed.

People will see and hear exactly what they want to see and hear, even when presented with factual proof they are wrong. So goes the human psyche, to the rejoicing of audio manufacturers along the entire price spectrum. So... hear what you want to hear and buy what you want to buy.. just try to refrain from judging harshly those who disagree with you.

Interesting Amplifier Article

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