Capacitor break-in
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nspindel
Posts: 5,343
I'm very intrigued by the necessity to break-in a capacitor. Please note that I am NOT questioning the need to do it - I fully appreciate that it's necessary. I recently re-did my SDA XO's with Sonicaps, and I was dumbfounded by the change in sound over the first ten hours, so I know something's going on in there!!!
I'm just wondering exactly what is happening during break-in. The recommendation seems to be 340 hours for the Gen 1's that I used in the XO's. I also had my Squeezebox modded, including some Sonicap Platinums. Bolder Cable, who did the SB3 mods, recommends 550 continuous hours for the break-in on the Platinums.
Edit: Further conversations with Bolder Cable, and now I realize that I misunderstood the original instructions. Continuous playback is NOT necessary. Hours accumulate regardless of the unit being powered down and out of use.
What is happening during that time? What is it about capacitors that requires so much continuous usage for them to "cook"? Why does the break-in need to be continuous? What would happen if I played the SB3 for 275 hours, turned it off for 1/2 hour, then played it for another 275 hours? Have I really only broken the caps in for 275 hours because I powered it off?
Edit: As I said above, this is bogus, it's not necessary to do this continuously. This does not, however, change my overall question about wondering what the whole process is really all about...
Again, I'm not criticizing doing this - I'm doing it myself as we speak. I'm just looking to understand what's going on in those little babies....
I'm just wondering exactly what is happening during break-in. The recommendation seems to be 340 hours for the Gen 1's that I used in the XO's. I also had my Squeezebox modded, including some Sonicap Platinums. Bolder Cable, who did the SB3 mods, recommends 550 continuous hours for the break-in on the Platinums.
Edit: Further conversations with Bolder Cable, and now I realize that I misunderstood the original instructions. Continuous playback is NOT necessary. Hours accumulate regardless of the unit being powered down and out of use.
What is happening during that time? What is it about capacitors that requires so much continuous usage for them to "cook"? Why does the break-in need to be continuous? What would happen if I played the SB3 for 275 hours, turned it off for 1/2 hour, then played it for another 275 hours? Have I really only broken the caps in for 275 hours because I powered it off?
Edit: As I said above, this is bogus, it's not necessary to do this continuously. This does not, however, change my overall question about wondering what the whole process is really all about...
Again, I'm not criticizing doing this - I'm doing it myself as we speak. I'm just looking to understand what's going on in those little babies....
Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
Post edited by nspindel on
Comments
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I never heard of the need to do it continuously. I also wonder what they say about increasing the volume to cook the caps faster? Joe used the Sonicaps, and thought for sure he messed something up in the upgrade process. I think it was about 350hrs when they finally broke through.Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben -
As far as the Sonic Caps go, the first 100 hours will make the biggest difference. After about 300-400 hours there won't be anymore noticeable change."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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So putting aside the number of hours it takes for the time being, since different people have different ears and therefore different opinions, what is actually happening to the caps during the break-in?Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
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So putting aside the number of hours it takes for the time being, since different people have different ears and therefore different opinions, what is actually happening to the caps during the break-in?
Below is for Black Gate capacitors: (I'm not sure about Sonicaps)
The Idling Process
If a Black Gate capacitor mounted on an electronic device is actuated, a signal current flows into it and the electrodes are gradually activated, reducing non-linear distortion and phase distortion substantially while improving the efficiency of power transfer efficiency. The time required for this process varies widely with the capacity, voltage and signal level. A total of about 30 hours is the standard level. Once this process of idling is completed, the effect continues as long as the capacitor is kept at the same place and the operating environment does not undergo a substantial change. The effect of idling has been proved with all types of electronic equipment-analog, digital, high-frequency and other devices. It must be noted that idling is different from aging, which applies a direct current voltage without giving signals.
The entire article can be found here:
http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/blackgate/bgtech.htm
Hope this helps!
Elvis is the watermelon -
I put mine in the microwave for 3 minutes and 18 seconds...
nevermind, thats popcornMonitor 7b's front
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Mit RPTV WS-55513
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B&K AV5000
Dont BAN me Bro!!!!:eek: -
I'm just wondering exactly what is happening during break-in.
Saturation of the charge for discharge.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Replacing caps with popcorn...you get any popping sounds at loud volume?Elvis is the watermelon
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Below is for Black Gate capacitors: (I'm not sure about Sonicaps)
The Idling Process
If a Black Gate capacitor mounted on an electronic device is actuated, a signal current flows into it and the electrodes are gradually activated, reducing non-linear distortion and phase distortion substantially while improving the efficiency of power transfer efficiency. The time required for this process varies widely with the capacity, voltage and signal level. A total of about 30 hours is the standard level. Once this process of idling is completed, the effect continues as long as the capacitor is kept at the same place and the operating environment does not undergo a substantial change. The effect of idling has been proved with all types of electronic equipment-analog, digital, high-frequency and other devices. It must be noted that idling is different from aging, which applies a direct current voltage without giving signals.
The entire article can be found here:
http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/blackgate/bgtech.htm
Hope this helps!
Interesting read, at least the 5% of it that I understood :eek: Black Gate went out of business, didn't they?Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance. -
I played a full range classical piece over and over again for 340 hours straight. It was suggested to me by someone who knows his stuff that it took 200 hours to burn in his Sonicaps. On mine, after 200 hours, I still was getting harsh, brassy, tinny, highs and thin midrange although the bass improved almost immediately.
It actually wasn't until after 340 hours that 1.2 TLs sounded consistently good.
I do want to tell you that I did stop it a few times to play some different music but I don't think that caused any backslide of the burnin process. -
Interesting read, at least the 5% of it that I understood :eek: Black Gate went out of business, didn't they?
To the best of my knowledge, Black Gates are out of production, but you can still find most of the values if you google around.Elvis is the watermelon -
Attached here is a study I did last year using an analysis tool called spectral waveform analysis to look at caps of widely different prices and also, briefly, capacitor break-in. An interesting technology which helps one see and measure the spectrum of sound displayed in the time domain.
Has anyone here read up or know anything about psychoacoustic masking? It's basically a human phenomenon attributable to one's gradual acceptance of objectionable sound over a long period of time. Sound familiar?
It's discussed and explained to some extent at Wikipedia under 'psychoacoustics'. -
Attached here is a study I did last year using an analysis tool called spectral waveform analysis to look at caps of widely different prices and also, briefly, capacitor break-in. An interesting technology which helps one see and measure the spectrum of sound displayed in the time domain.
Has anyone here read up or know anything about psychoacoustic masking? It's basically a human phenomenon attributable to one's gradual acceptance of objectionable sound over a long period of time. Sound familiar?
It's discussed and explained to some extent at Wikipedia under 'psychoacoustics'.
Don't waste your time reading this. Look at the mic he is using to do the tests. Hey wow a 4.2uf cap is still a 4.2uf cap after breakin.
Have you tried the test where you use quality HiFi equipment from source top speakers, and your ears?
Its cool if you enjoy studies like that, but it has no relevance in HiFi.
Ben
I want my 10 minutes back:(Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben -
Just eyeballing all the graphs, I don't see much that is different between the different caps.
I do know that my ears hear a difference in my 1.2tls after the upgrade to Mills and Sonicaps. -
Ben and woofiepaws:
Capacitor break-in has be hotly debated for quite sometime now on many audio-related web sites. It's basically been a subjectivists vs objectivists debate. That is, non-engineers who's ears are their best test instrument vs the engineers who tend to rely more on hard data than anecdotal observations.
The study I did was simply an attempt to add some hard data from a different approach to what is a very difficult audio attribute to pin down.
There is also a semi-formal study done by a group of expert speaker diy'rs (published somewhere on the web) who did a double blind listening study during one of their annual gatherings to compare caps of differing quality. The end result was there wasn't a better than 50/50 chance of telling the high end from the low end.
OTOH, take another 10 minutes guys and read about psychoacoustic masking. It's an area of scientific study that is well documented by scientists much more qualified than I. Therein lies the proof that we humans unconsiously adapt our listening to accomodate our environment, be it good or bad.
So, what's really 'breaking in"? Our capacitors or our brains? -
I'm not an engineer, and for the most part when I look at the graphs I don't even know when they mean. I like music, I enjoy nice hi-fi equipment, I can follow instructions that others give, and I know how to work a soldering iron, which is how I came to my Sonicap upgrades to my XO's. All I can say is that something definitely happens to these caps. I described on another thread how the introductory "heartbeat" at the beginning of the MFSL 24K Dark Side of the Moon sounded like complete static for the first several hours after I fired them up. It took about ten hours before it started sounding like anything resembling what it really is.Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance.
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OTOH, take another 10 minutes guys and read about psychoacoustic masking. It's an area of scientific study that is well documented by scientists much more qualified than I. Therein lies the proof that we humans unconsiously adapt our listening to accomodate our environment, be it good or bad.
So, what's really 'breaking in"? Our capacitors or our brains?
Psychoacoustic masking is a real phenomenon and obviously the degree varies person to person. One thing I can state is with the sl2000 (all gear and music being the same) I used to get a headache after about 45 minutes of listening. No amount of psychoacoustic masking could prevent that. Several other flaws were always noticed in certain vocals and piano (resonance, harmonic inconsistencies, unnatural ringing) which could make you cringe when listening. No amount of psychoacoustic masking could make me forget or not notice these issues.
With the RD0's much of the above stuff improved by a large degree. Redoing a x-over improved things even more. It is a true phenomenon but an attentive listener very familiar with the source material can overcome this phenomenon and make a more honest assessment of what they hear.
It's great not to get a headache when listening to music for hour after hour. The sl2000 almost always gave me a headache during longer listening sessions.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I just pulled a used Sonicap and a new one of the same value and they both have equal measurement on my DMM; I conclude there is no difference.
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I just pulled a used Sonicap and a new one of the same value and they both have equal measurement on my DMM; I conclude there is no difference.
To bad a DMM doesn't simulate the actual load the cap is under while being used in a loudspeaker system."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Exactly, measuring capacitance is a DC measurement. In the audio world, caps have an AC function only. We do not listen to DC.
A spectral analysis would be required to see differences. -
There was more than one joke there fellas.
I just wanted to stir up some fun. The change on my 4.1TLs after 115 hours has been very pleasurable. -
There was more than one joke there fellas.
I just wanted to stir up some fun. The change on my 4.1TLs after 115 hours has been very pleasurable.
More than one? Ahh, man, I didn't even catch the first joke. You forgot to mention that it is a 2.2 uF cap on the tweeter.
I need to leave this office and start my weekend. -
I just pulled a used Sonicap and a new one of the same value and they both have equal measurement on my DMM; I conclude there is no difference.
Joke one: burn-in makes no difference
Joke two: a DMM is a good piece of equipment to measure a cap
Man... it has been a long week. -
I wish I could find a pic of someone roasting a cap with a propane torch.
To get back on topic, does nayone have comments on the necessity to burn in caps on a low pass crossover versus a high pass one? The high pass crossover has the reproduced signal going entirely through the cap. A low pass crossover has the cap bypass the unwanted frequencies. -
Psychoacoustic masking is a real phenomenon and obviously the degree varies person to person. One thing I can state is with the sl2000 (all gear and music being the same) I used to get a headache after about 45 minutes of listening. No amount of psychoacoustic masking could prevent that. Several other flaws were always noticed in certain vocals and piano (resonance, harmonic inconsistencies, unnatural ringing) which could make you cringe when listening. No amount of psychoacoustic masking could make me forget or not notice these issues.
With the RD0's much of the above stuff improved by a large degree. Redoing a x-over improved things even more. It is a true phenomenon but an attentive listener very familiar with the source material can overcome this phenomenon and make a more honest assessment of what they hear.
It's great not to get a headache when listening to music for hour after hour. The sl2000 almost always gave me a headache during longer listening sessions.
H9
Well said, I have two rdo tweets coming order. I have a feeling the sl2000 have been annoying me like that for over 20 years! We'll see, I totally agree.. -
Your 20 year annoyance is just about over.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Ben and woofiepaws:
Capacitor break-in has be hotly debated for quite sometime now on many audio-related web sites. It's basically been a subjectivists vs objectivists debate. That is, non-engineers who's ears are their best test instrument vs the engineers who tend to rely more on hard data than anecdotal observations.
The study I did was simply an attempt to add some hard data from a different approach to what is a very difficult audio attribute to pin down.
There is also a semi-formal study done by a group of expert speaker diy'rs (published somewhere on the web) who did a double blind listening study during one of their annual gatherings to compare caps of differing quality. The end result was there wasn't a better than 50/50 chance of telling the high end from the low end.
OTOH, take another 10 minutes guys and read about psychoacoustic masking. It's an area of scientific study that is well documented by scientists much more qualified than I. Therein lies the proof that we humans unconsiously adapt our listening to accomodate our environment, be it good or bad.
So, what's really 'breaking in"? Our capacitors or our brains?
Another friggen scientist:rolleyes:
Please take your head out of your ****. I swear you can hear so much better that way. I don't need charts to tell me what sounds better.Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben -
Go Ben!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Was I too harsh?Go Ben!
Seriously spkrdtr F1nut told me when I first got serious about this hobby that "A mind is like a paraschute... unless it is open..."Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben -
Not in my book. Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Your 20 year annoyance is just about over.
LOL- yes it is!! Before the tweeter replacement offered by Polk I had no option and as Doro stated in another thread it was an acceptable tweeter when those Polk models were new. Now with the RD0's there is no comparison; the RD0's are superior in every aspect.
I was very stubborn when I learned of the replacement about 3 years ago and never replaced the sl2000 w/RD0's in my RTA-11T's; I should have as soon as I found out about the RD0's (or as they were known then the sl2000T).
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
