BR may have won the format war, but ......

dkg999 · March 2008

I'm not sure it's going to win the market

I've had a couple of BR players here this weekend to try out. A friend dropped off a Sony S300 and a Panasonic BD30 (I should of wrote down the models before he picked them up on his way back to Omaha!) on Friday evening as he came into Chicago for the weekend. Hey that's the price I charge for crashing on my couch for a night! He also brought a few BR DVD's, a couple of which I had the SD versions of.

I've been playing and comparing all weekend using these two BR players, my Sony 46" XBR5 LCD, and my Cambridge Audio 540D v2 upconverting DVD player. I already know the CA 540D is on a par with the Toshiba X2 from a previous upconversion comparison. As far as upconversion the CA 540D is better than either of these two BR players. In fact far better than the Sony S300.

What amazed me was that when comparing a BR version of a movie vs the upconverted SD version (via the CA 540D), there just isn't that significant of a difference! I'm not comparing additional features on a BR DVD vs a SD DVD, because I could care less about those. In a head-to-head PQ comparison using the upconverted and BR versions of POTC via switching back and forth between two HDMI inputs and having the movies pretty well synchronized, there sure as hell ain't $300 to $500 worth of difference to worry about buying another DVD player that does BR and paying a bunch more for movies. If I as an audio/HT enthusiast don't see enough difference to get me excited, Joe & Mary consumer sure ain't going to get excited about buying a more expensive BR DVD player and paying more for movies.

Put me in the waiting for a BR DVD player that has something to get me excited about. Cheap DVD's and good upconversion is good enough for me!

I reserve the right to change my mind at any time though!

dpowell · March 2008

Interesting that the difference is negligable to you. I've noticed a huge improvement in SD movie quality after upgrading to a high-quality up-converting player. I figured I'd be waiting until prices came down on BR before adding it to my system and your testing is helps confirm that choice. I'm interested to see if others share your opinion. Thanks for the insight.

dkg999 · March 2008

Just to clarify, the difference I found disappointing was between upconverted SD and BR. The difference between SD DVD and upconverted SD DVD is pretty amazing.

billbillw · March 2008

Either you had poor source material, your TV is too small, or you are sitting too far away from your set. The difference between upconverted SD and good quality Bluray (or HDDVD) is definitely noticeable, and impressive on my 55" at 12' away. What movies were you comparing? There are some poor quality Bluray and HDDVD that by most accounts are not much improvement over DVD.

I will, however, agree with you, that the upconverting on most of the Bluray players is not that great. There are a few exceptions. The discontinued Panny BD10A is very good, as well as the $2k Denon 3800, and the discontinued (and very buggy) Samsung BD1200. Most of the others get failing grades when it comes to SD-DVD deinterlacing and upconverting. Most of Toshiba's HDDVD players were actually much better at upconverting.

dkg999 · March 2008

The Pirates of the Carribian DVD's were the only ones where I had both the BR and the SD versions, so all head-to-head comparisons were done with those. My normal viewing distances are at about 8' and 12' from my 46" LCD.

Sami · March 2008

The difference between SD-DVD to upconverted SD-DVD, and the difference between upconverted to HD-DVD/BR...there is a slight improvement in the first, and definitely a huge improvement in the latter. Then again the smallest display I'm watching is 61" 1080p set, on 720p sets you lose a lot but even on smallish 720p sets you should see a definite improvement.

I've tried watching SD movies upconverted but there simply isn't going back anymore, especially on the projector. On the 61" SD-DVD isn't too bad, nowhere near HD/BD, but decent but once you put it to big screen all the flaws are just so on your face that I just can't watch it anymore.

dorokusai · March 2008

Not everyone is a winner, but the ratio works pretty well. It's the same with everything in this hobby.

dkg999 · March 2008

Boys & Girls - I'm not saying there isn't a difference between BR and the upconverted SD DVD, but I am just a bit disappointed that the difference wasn't as big as I imagined it was going to be. Admittedly the CA 540D is a very good upconverting player. But I didn't see a big enough difference to make me excited about adding another $400 to $600 BR player to the system.

dorokusai · March 2008

I have some BR media of my crotch available, and if you don't see the crabs....you are SOOOO low-fi.

Ron-P · March 2008

They may not win the market...yet, but Blu is gaining ground, and rapidly, so much so it's starting to affect SD-DVD sales.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?sec_id=2&&article_ID=12401

Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment’s No Country for Old Men realized 9.8% of its total sales from Blu-ray Disc its first five days in stores

Hitman, a 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment title also released March 11, fared even better, generating 12.6% of its total unit sales from Blu-ray Disc.

As for the difference in PQ between SD and HD, it's not even close. Put that image up on an 84" screen and you'll see just how vastly improved that image will be. On a small 46" set, it's much more difficult to see a huge improvement. SD-DVD's on my 32" LCD look good upconverted but on my 84" they look so bad I won't watch'em.

mantis · March 2008

I have compared King Kong On HD DVD and SD DVD and it was noticable on my 46 inch sony. Superman returns , 40 year old virgin , Tarnsformers , Rush Hour 3 , Crank just to name a few HD and Blu titles I have watched both and they all looked much better on HD and Blu.
Shame you don't see a big difference. I went HD and will never go back to DVD. Blu Ray is simply amazing.

engtaz · March 2008

I find the Blueray is way to bright. The whites almost washout facial features on the units I have tried.

engtaz

Willow · March 2008

I was not blown away by BR either. I was expecting this WOW ! it was more... nice.

The reason I think this way is that we (my wife and I) have been so used to watching HD TV shows, that it gave us a taste of what to expect. FWIW our TV caps out @720p and we sit 9ft away from it. I am not saying I can't tell the diff. between the two, just that I was thinking it was gong to kick major butt. Yes I am happy as we enjoy HD more so than SD, I was just expecting more...

tonyb · March 2008

I always keep in mind that that format is for movies only as nobody broadcast anything in 1080p.So the investment is a wash to me.The way technology is moving these days,as soon as everyone has sunk enough coin into it,the next latest and greatest will be out....I'll skip this one and wait on the next.

venomclan · March 2008

I found that if you have at least a 55" screen and sit 10 ft. or closer, at 1080P, Blu makes a noticible difference. Anything less I feel is not worth it vs. upconverted sd-dvd. The problem is that 99% of the public has gear in the "not worth it" camp. If Sony can get Blu to under $20 software price point, that will make a huge difference.
Venom

dorokusai · March 2008

I only have a 32" LCD in my bedroom and the BR media is obvious. YMMV.

engtaz · March 2008

Agree to 13 and 14 comments. Notice how Sony stopped dropping the price of the player????? I got into HDDVD for only $100 dollars because my upconverting DVD player died. I have seen both on a 72" tv.

engtaz

Ron-P · March 2008

engtaz wrote: »

I find the Blueray is way to bright. The whites almost washout facial features on the units I have tried.

engtaz

You need to calibrate your display, that's not a fault of Blu-ray.

cheddar · March 2008

Or, it may be the monitor and source are using the wrong black/white space. Computer monitors in the US and TVs in the rest of the world use 0-255 to specify black/white levels. However, TVs in the US use 16-235. So sometimes, the source may be using the 'full' black space while the TV is expecting the 'limited' numbers or vice versa and you will notice either the movie is too dark or looks washed out. Some sets and sources allow you to set this value and others do not. Sometimes you have to look deep into the menus to find it. But if it's there and set wrong, it's an easy fix.

cheddar · March 2008

On the OT. I think it's the same with high end audio. If your eyes/ears don't tell you there's a difference worth the money, then by all means save the money. But everyone should at least try it out for themselves on a good rig and not rely on people who try and convince them one way or the other. If you're one of those whose eyes/ears can appreciate the difference, then you are in for a real treat, although an expensive one...:D.

Ron-P · March 2008

although an expensive one...

It's not an expensive one, $300 for a player and Blu-ray movies that can be had for $15-$20. Not expensive at all, infact I bet you could still spend more then $300 on an SD-DVD player.

dkg999 · March 2008

Unfortunately neither BR player would let me compare the HD audio via the 5.1 analog input on my AVR. If the audio is better and the PQ is better, than that combination might convince me. I'll wait at this point for the Panasonic BD50 and the Sony S550 players and give those a try.

For those of you that want an excellent upconverting DVD player with fantastic audio output, I can highly recommend the Cambridge Audio 540D ver 2.

cheddar · March 2008

Ron-P wrote: »

It's not an expensive one, $300 for a player and Blu-ray movies that can be had for $15-$20. Not expensive at all, infact I bet you could still spend more then $300 on an SD-DVD player.

Not expensive, yet...

The realta (big brother to the highly regarded reon) chip players are already starting to make their way to market and are being marketed as "upconverting" players that can even improve HD content. Most of the stuff that's out now is really entry level stuff. Of course there will be diminishing returns, but that never stopped the high end segment of audio or video from developing...;)

engtaz · March 2008

Ron-P wrote: »

You need to calibrate your display, that's not a fault of Blu-ray.

Comparing HD DVD and Blue ray and Directv HD on the same tv. Does Blueray take a special setup for it?
We don't have problem with the other formats.

engtaz

Sami · March 2008

cheddar wrote: »

Not expensive, yet...

While we will see some expensive players with really diminishing video values, we will also see a lot cheaper entry level players that will do the main job just as good. That's when j6p will be getting into the market, and that will happen. It's a shame because the HD-DVD players already were in the j6p segment, those $100 Toshiba's actually found a home in many non-videophile families.

cheddar · March 2008

engtaz wrote: »

Comparing HD DVD and Blue ray and Directv HD on the same tv. Does Blueray take a special setup for it?
We don't have problem with the other formats.

engtaz

This sounds like it could be a color space problem. For example, if the HD-DVD and Directtv HD devices default to the 16-235 black/white space, but the blu-ray source is outputting at 0-255, then there will be a problem that will only show up on the blu-ray source because you calibrated based on the other color space. The wrong color space option is also chosen by some people because of how it is named in the menu. Of course people would rather have 'full' color or 'deep black' color. But your display has to be capable of it to choose it.

Edit: The reverse might also be true. You may have calibrated based on 0-255 and the player could be displaying 16-235. Now that I think about it, this might be the situation that would make things look washed out, as the player would be outputting 16 as the darkest black, but your monitor would be expecting 0, so it would display it much brighter than it should be all the way up the scale.

cheddar · March 2008

Sami wrote: »

While we will see some expensive players with really diminishing video values, we will also see a lot cheaper entry level players that will do the main job just as good. That's when j6p will be getting into the market, and that will happen. It's a shame because the HD-DVD players already were in the j6p segment, those $100 Toshiba's actually found a home in many non-videophile families.

Just saying that this thread seems to be hitting the same themes often found in high end audio...

Should a person spend the money if they don't see a difference worth the money?

Of course not...however, different people will always have a range of opinions on how much a difference is worth to them. The only way to tell is if they actually get eyes and ears on the product. And for some, the small difference at the very highest levels is worth quite a lot. As you say, though, as prices drop, most people will find the differences well worth it at the entry level, especially as both players and HDTVs continue to improve in quality and features at all levels.

Edit: I think it's also amusing that people telling me how inexpensive HD can be are saying that you can really improve things by getting a 60-80 inch screen. The best 1080p options in this range for projectors and flat panels are anything but entry level and cheap

.

Sami · March 2008

cheddar wrote: »

Just saying that this thread seems to be hitting the same themes often found in high end audio...

You are right. SD-DVD = mp3 / TV speakers, upconverted SD = BOSE/HTIB, HD/BD = Hi-Fi.

cheddar wrote: »

Edit: I think it's also amusing that people telling me how inexpensive HD can be are saying that you can really improve things by getting a 60-80 inch screen. The best 1080p options in this range for projectors and flat panels are anything but entry level and cheap .

I think the keyword is can be. Even on entry level small 720p screen there is a definite improvement in picture quality. People are/were willing to pay a premium on small set for an improvement in the quality of the actual set, but now all of sudden they won't pay for an improvement in the actual source that feeds the set? How many were looking for a 46" set and paid $300-400 more for a Sony/Samsung/Pioneer/etc over some non-brand name because the picture quality was better? Then why not pay that amount to further improve the quality? I know, for the movie collectors its the price of medium but for the average customer that doesn't buy all the movies they watch?

cheddar · March 2008

Sami wrote: »

Even on entry level small 720p screen there is a definite improvement in picture quality. People are/were willing to pay a premium on small set for an improvement in the quality of the actual set, but now all of sudden they won't pay for an improvement in the actual source that feeds the set? How many were looking for a 46" set and paid $300-400 more for a Sony/Samsung/Pioneer/etc over some non-brand name because the picture quality was better? Then why not pay that amount to further improve the quality? I know, for the movie collectors its the price of medium but for the average customer that doesn't buy all the movies they watch?

No arguments here. I knew quite a long time ago that I would be building out a HT with blu-ray and HDTV. There was a period of about a year where I stopped buying dvds altogether eventhough there were few blu-rays released. I knew that the more new components I bought, the more bang for the buck I would get out of the new technology. Every step brought something to the table that made my initial decision to spend a bit more initially well worth it.

dkg999 · March 2008

Interesting comments, much appreciated!

Unfortunately at this time I don't see enough improvement in PQ from the BR players I tried to justify an investment in them. As new players are released that let me integrate the improved PQ with improved SQ, and those players start to come down in price, then the equation changes. I don't disagree with the comments, I am glad I gave it a preview so I could judge for myself. As the technology and pricing changes, I have an open mind, and I'll keep tabs on the players that are released.

I also guess I look for pretty significant improvements that justify an expenditure on gear, or are in proportion to the improvement. I don't need the latest and greatest just because there's a small improvement in some metric.

Ricardo · March 2008

I am pissed of enough from buying an HD-DVD player that I don't even want to think about going Blu Ray; I do have a great upconverting player now, but the oppo was also great.

In my 1080i/720p 57" Hitachi there is a noticeable difference between HD-DVD and upconverted, but I agree is not as WOW as I thought it would be. Maybe if I had a 1080p things would be different.

One thing that also makes a difference is the (few) movies that have true sound formats.

In any case, I don't plan to buy anything for now, AND I HOPE BLU RAY DIES ALSO!!!!!

BR may have won the format war, but ......

Comments