TroyD or anyone who wants to read this.

mantis · March 2003

The Bose debate as of late........
I didn't address a certain thing that was said by TroyD that just struck me now.He looked at the system more on sound quality then features.

Now I totally agree with TroyD that a system HAS to sound good before features.BUT and it's a BIG BUT the system ALSO has to have the features that are needed to complete the package.This is where value come into play.

You see I feel you need to get a total package.Getting better sound quality is always my game,but not at the expense of features.It sucks when you get loose out on some features you use and enjoy.

Liv4fam and myself where talking about it and we both came to the conclusion that sometimes it's nessary to loose some sound quality to gain features.The Japanese are king at this.Take a deep look into the Denon avr5803 and see if you can find any preamp or receiver with MORE features.You will be extremely hard pressed.

This journey we all travel,has so much to offer.The more I learn,the more respect I have for ALL kinds of gear.From KLH to Krell and everything inbetween.The products on the market today are really good,just about all of them if not all of them have a place where they can make a certain kind of person/s happy.Sure there are plenty of things I feel are totally not for me,but that doesn't mean it isn't for the next guy.One mans trash is another mans Treasure.........keep that in mind next time you feel the need to BASH any given product.

Another product that come to mind is this new Samsung DLP TV.I hate the damn thing because it's fully not a custom Install TV.There's not a god damn thing CUSTOM about it.I think the picture quality isn't that good and it costs 4 grand.It makes beeping sound when you turn it on and off.BUT......the damn thing is selling like no other in Tv's right now.It's like the HOT ticket and everyone want to have it.And even past the long list I can create why this TV stinks,I can see threw the smoke and see why others not like ME would want this TV and be completely happy with it for years and years.It's light first of all,it gives you a killer big screen and is a tabletop.It decodes all current formats.It's killer looking,overall the picture is as good as most on the market,And for the money you get alot of TV.You can also say it's the latest and greatest....to a point...

Mature I am becoming in my journey,quest if you will.The more I learn the clearer I see.I also think keeping an open mind is key.

joe logston · March 2003

hi mantis , what would be a good hd tv reconmendation. i been waiting for the hd tvs to comedown in price and they did, you should know a few buy now because you install them and see a lot of hd tvs. that are affordable and of good quality.

thanks.

RuSsMaN · March 2003

Originally posted by mantis
Liv4fam and myself where talking about it and we both came to the conclusion that sometimes it's nessary to loose some sound quality to gain features.

I can't believe you said that.

Cheers,
Russ

TroyD · March 2003

I would say, how else WOULD you judge an audio system other than how it sounds?

Look, I've said before, my beef with bose is that they want you to believe (and this is thier marketing strategy) is that thier gear SOUNDS best and it simply isn't true. Wanna know why they won't post specs? Simple, because they are embarrasing. Period. Why publish something that doesn't portray your product in a flattering manner.

As far as the rest of it goes, no big secret, I'm not a bells and whistles kind of guy. KISS (keep it simple, stupid) I'm a minimalist by nature (hell, I live in a 7x5 cubicle and have room to spare) and how many of these bells and whistles REALLY get used? In reality, not much I think.

BDT

mantis · March 2003

Joe,
There are many HDTV's on the market.I believe if your looking for bang for the buck and want above average performance,You should seriously look into Mitsubishi.They are a great company,very custom and performance above most others.

Russman,
That of what I said makes sense if you look at the big picture.There is Important things to consider when building a system.The order which you put them in is whats needd for the system to work correctly.
You know Better then that,I always put sound quality on top of my list.I wouldn't own the kind of gear I do if I didn't.But flexability goes a long way.It's really hard to find the right combination of compmoents that work together to achive a given goal.
This pertains to Home Theater,2 channel really don't have features.They do but not like Home Theater gear does.Multiroom,triggers,Ir Routing,Programmable remotes,Notch filters,THX,Video switching,Video upconverting,Discrete IR,input flexability and connectibility are just some of the things that need to be addressed as well as sound quality.
Giving up sound quality to address features is an option and has to check ones priorities.

TroyD,

I would say, how else WOULD you judge an audio system other than how it sounds?

Sound quality is only 1 way to judge a system.Does it have the nessary inputs to support all your gear and maybe some down the road?Flexibility,can it do more then one room?Will it work in the room I want to use it in?Can it be upgraded in the future or do I have to buy a new one with future formats?What is the remote like and can it be programmed to control my sources and TV?Does it fit in my cabnet?Is it easy to use or do I need to take a course????
Troy your thinking is very simple,and being a 2 channel guy over being a Home theater and Automation guy,This is very understandable.You said it your self,your a simple man......Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.Sorry that sounded funny but anyway thats fine man.All things considered there are many many people out there with different needs.Simple for you works,for me I Travel a different path.

madmax · March 2003

Personally I HATE features. I know that sounds stupid but there are a few reasons why. When I get a new piece of equipment I refuse to waste my listening time reading a tech document. I do way too much of that sort of thing at work. A good example was my Sony CD player from the 80's. It did everything. One feature let you lock out certain songs you didn't like but how it happened was not obvious. Needless to say I locked out most of the good songs and couldn't figure out how to unlock them. In the end I got another CD player. Heh, heh. I think I would rather change cables around rather than learn a complicated switching process.
madmax

TroyD · March 2003

Ok, Dan, let me use small words so as not to confuse you. There is a difference between being a minimalist and being simple. There is a huge difference between preffering simplicity and purity and being ignorant. Sort of like there is a difference between being a thoughtless know-it-all and a complete blithering ****. :mad:

Now, yes, the ultimate test of an AUDIO system is how it SOUNDS. All the bells and whistles in the world doesn't change the fact if it sounds lousy, it sounds lousy. If you are willing to settle, fine by me, not my wampum. I believe that bells and whistles while a great selling point tend to be rarely used.

As far as multiroom and cool remotes? Whooptee-freakin'-do. Not to beat a dead horse but I'm sure I could buy a decent mini system for each room of the house and still have enough money to buy myself some play-dough or small, round, shiny objects.

Troy

F1nut · March 2003

That's going to leave a mark!

mantis · March 2003

TroyD,
I don't see why your so touchy ........relax man.

Ok, Dan, let me use small words so as not to confuse you. There is a difference between being a minimalist and being simple. There is a huge difference between preffering simplicity and purity and being ignorant. Sort of like there is a difference between being a thoughtless know-it-all and a complete blithering ****.

Your going to give yourself a tumor or something........it's all good man.No need for all the hosility.
You asked questions on what else to lookat when selecting a system other then sound quality you said,

I would say, how else WOULD you judge an audio system other than how it sounds?

And I answered you,

Sound quality is only 1 way to judge a system.Does it have the nessary inputs to support all your gear and maybe some down the road?Flexibility,can it do more then one room?Will it work in the room I want to use it in?Can it be upgraded in the future or do I have to buy a new one with future formats?What is the remote like and can it be programmed to control my sources and TV?Does it fit in my cabnet?Is it easy to use or do I need to take a course????

Then,

Troy your thinking is very simple,and being a 2 channel guy over being a Home theater and Automation guy,This is very understandable.You said it your self,your a simple man......Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.Sorry that sounded funny but anyway thats fine man.All things considered there are many many people out there with different needs.Simple for you works,for me I Travel a different path.

I didn't mean any harm or even name calling.I was just going by what you said about features.Simplicity or whatever you perfer to call your thinking is fine man.I'm sorry If what or how I word it offended you.
I'm not into fighting with you or anyone on this forum anymore.2 many cool people leave because of it.So if your mad at me,just Email me and we can settle anything you want there ok?
Dmantis20@aol.com.
With that being said.....My views and your views are different.Nothing wrong there.We both like good sound quality,I personally wouldn't give up sound quality to achive features.This is where my struggle within comes from.I like features but like sound quality better.For everything not just 2 channel music.
I'm also very much into home automation and intergration.Mutiroom audio and distributed video is very cool.Phone systems are awesome.Many things I enjoy other then just awesome 2 channel sound quality.I'm a complicated in comparsion......Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa;) :cool:

shack · March 2003

I have been in homes both being constructed and finished costing from $500,000 to $3,000,000. They can afford anything they want. And what they want is whole house integration.... single source control...multi-room function and "Invisibility" of the components. They expect a certain level of performance but how the system blends into the decor and works throuout the home is paramount. Yes some of them have Bose and most all make extensive use of inwall and inceiling speakers. They don't spend time comparing the sound of this speaker vs that speaker or this amp vs that amp. They want it all to work seamlessly. They want to walk into their "Media" room...pick up a remote...turn on the system... drop the screen...drop the shades (if there are windows)...dim the lights...and push play! They for the most part dont know Denon form Krell from Bose...and don't care. Its about features. They for the most part don't sit for hours and listen to music. They do want to turn the music or radio system on and be able to hear it in the kitchen...dining room...living room...patio...pool by pushing one button and adjusting the volume in each room. Some do have dedicated listening or screening rooms with dedicated high end equipment...but they are the exception...not the rule! These people spend tens of thousands of dollars on their systems and for them it is all about features.

madmax · March 2003

To me a $500,000 house should consist of a $100,000 dwelling with $400,000 worth of audio equipment in it.

Next question: How do you explain this to your insurance agent?
madmax

RuSsMaN · March 2003

DING! Fries are done!

rs159 · March 2003

Multi zone and full house audio still confuses me, why the hell would you want to hear the speaker right above your head, the one in the hall, the one in the bedroom, the one in the upstairs hall, the one in the kitchen, and the one in the living room at the same time? I know if you close the door it's a bit more isolated but sometimes a door doesn't exist between zones and low frequencies still go straight thru doors anyway. Sounds like audio hell to me, a horible blending of direct and reflected sound with severely different tonal qualities arriving as much as a half second or more apart from eachother.

madmax, $400,000? Hell, don't explain, just give 'em a demo. They'll understand.

madmax · March 2003

I bet a $400,000 system would give one hell of a demo! I can't even imagine!

I think audio hell is a great description of multi-room. Well, I guess it depends on how it's done. I guess we are talking about more than a whole house intercom. Those things really annoy me. When you do multi room do you set up a "real" set of quality speakers in each room or is it just enough to make sound?
madmax
madmax

joe logston · March 2003

thanks , mantis i been looking at mitsubishi tvs i know they have a good picture, and they have come down on price, mit. mite be the ticket,

my self i like all the features from a system plus good sound, and price, you dont need a $400,000 system to achieve that.

wallstreet · March 2003

Have you ever looked closely at those slick systems in those $1M houses? They've all got some sort of in wall speaker with a tiny sub tucked away in an audio cabinet. Granted the video will be the best part of these systems, but overall, these systems are built for looks. A high quality freestanding speaker always outclasses an inwall. So for the money is no object person, why would they use inwalls and hide the sub (which diminishes its output)? Because it's all about the WOW factor.

rs159 · March 2003

WOW factor? You mean like "big bold bose sound" from inwalls

, so it's like you can't really tell where the sound is coming from, but somehow it's there? If you're building a house that size why can't you have a dedicated room for real speakers, and perhaps a small whole house background noise type of system too? I think the problem is people say "I want a home theater for $XXXX", so the installer comes out and puts in what he thinks would work best in the room. The people then think that their bose cubes are the best thing in the world because they never compared it against other systems. Lack of education I think is the main reason people have inwalls for their main system.

If it were me I would have a kickass main system and a secondary system, the secondary one hooked up to a computer - much more flexible and you can program it any way you like, i.e. you can have options like the song you want to play, the volume, perhaps even equalizers (so teenage bassheads and real audiophiles can both be happy), if you want to get really elaborate even custom playlists. As you walk into each room you can press a button on your own remote and the system will automatically cater to all your settings. That would require serious soundproofing between rooms, but I think it could be done (I believe Bill Gate's house has something like what I'm talking about, but that system will also display your favorite type of art on in wall TVs and other stuff like that)

Ron-P · March 2003

My father-in-law JUST BOUGHT BLOSE.

I was over Saturday installing some fence for him. He said, when your done, come in and I'll show you my new speaker system. He handed me $200 cash for the work I was doing and went inside. I finished up and went it. He took me into the spare room and showed me 5 little black cubes and a black box on the floor. He was overly-excited. I just about shat myself. But, I could not say a word, he was too happy (and he'd just floted me duel Franklins).

He did make the comment that it does not compare to mine (you got that right, I said, under my breath).

I actually held one of those cubes in my hand, talk about the most overly priced crap. I imagine I'll get the call next week when the receiver comes in to set it all up.

Peace Out~:D

rs159 · March 2003

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! About **** myself I would too. One time my grandfather was actually considering one of those damn wave radio things. Thank god I talked him out of that one in time.

Ron-P · March 2003

My friend bought a wave radio. I tired to stop him, but the Blose job was too good, I haden't a chance.

Peace Out~:D

rs159 · March 2003

Ya know, I've been thinking about ditching my current setup and putting 2 wave music systems (the big ones) up front, and using 3 wave radios (the little ones) for surrounds and center

:lol

Big bold BOSE sound all around!

rs159 · March 2003

With one of those bose lifestyle receiver things for a preamp of course

wallstreet · March 2003

Originally posted by rs159
WOW factor? You mean like "big bold bose sound" from inwalls , so it's like you can't really tell where the sound is coming from, but somehow it's there? If you're building a house that size why can't you have a dedicated room for real speakers, and perhaps a small whole house background noise type of system too? I think the problem is people say "I want a home theater for $XXXX", so the installer comes out and puts in what he thinks would work best in the room. The people then think that their bose cubes are the best thing in the world because they never compared it against other systems. Lack of education I think is the main reason people have inwalls for their main system.

If it were me I would have a kickass main system and a secondary system, the secondary one hooked up to a computer - much more flexible and you can program it any way you like, i.e. you can have options like the song you want to play, the volume, perhaps even equalizers (so teenage bassheads and real audiophiles can both be happy), if you want to get really elaborate even custom playlists. As you walk into each room you can press a button on your own remote and the system will automatically cater to all your settings. That would require serious soundproofing between rooms, but I think it could be done (I believe Bill Gate's house has something like what I'm talking about, but that system will also display your favorite type of art on in wall TVs and other stuff like that)

By WoW factor I mean inwalls with a rear projector with no gear sticking out. Just some fancy furniture. That's what most people think of as the ultimate. Problem is, in walls don't sound as good as a big floorstanding momma speaker loaded up with drivers and ports! You don't really see those Bose cubes because even those look tacky compared to an inwall painted to match the wall. You've got the idea on the HT. The only problem is when the stereo guy comes out to listen to what you want. He'll say "How about an IR volume control with an A/B switch here and a couple in wall volume controls here. We'll do 5.1 in the bedroom and 7.1 in the media room with a rear projector prewire. Let's see now for just running the wires, that'll cost you $1500. And to finish the job, well that'll run you $2G's more. Did you want to buy some stereo equipment too?" :rolleyes:

brettw22 · April 2003

I had one of those Bose Wave Radios and (though we've had this topic before) I like them. Taking Bose in it's own context, and realizing what it is, they aren't THAT bad. When I got it I took it to work one day (cuz we had no sound in the place, not to show it off) and everyone asked if all the sound was coming from 'that little black radio thingy?' It sounded really good.

I don't necessarily think that people that purchase Bose are buying them on the premise that they sound better than anything else. They're buying them for the look. In all honesty, (and I'm gonna catch shiat for this), but I think that Bose cubes sound good. Do they sound better than my HT setup? Hell no. Do they sound good/acceptable for being 2-3" squares on the wall? Sure. They miss a lot of clarity and depth, but they have their niche in the market place for those that don't require the type of sound that other speakers produce.

Are they overpriced? Yes(to you and I). I'd compare their pricing to that of a laptop vs. desktop/tower PC.

rs159 · April 2003

(Keep in mind that I'm talking about the wave music system (the big one), and not the wave radio (the little one)

I'll admit that I like the bose look for some things, it looks a bit more techno-ish than most products, so it would look better in a lot of settings. I also like the little remote (though I have a felling that would get lost). What I don't like is the price (>$1000 for 4 cheapo full rangers and a transmission line sub with a 4" driver), the radio (I've heard a lot of people say that the tuner section isn't that gread), the speaker placement (why even bother with stereo if the speakers are 12" apart?), and the fact that to connect anything else to it you have to buy the base for $125. If I could get the little wave radio for a bedroom for <$100, I'd go for it, but I don't think the radio and especially the wave music system represent a good value for what bose thinks they're worth. There are better mini systems out there for <$150. They might not be as "sexy" looking, but they are about the same size and if you want you can put the speakers apart for -REAL- stereo sound.

mantis · April 2003

So brettw22,
whats wrong with liking Bose???I like em.......I don't care what others think.....I like what I like.You should like what you like.

There's nothing wrong with Bose.....or carver......or KLH.....or whatever else people are into.It's all good man......from a certain point of view.

F1nut · April 2003

Originally posted by mantis
whats wrong with liking Bose???

Nothing, if you don't mind being raped!

TroyD · April 2003

C'mon Jesse, they have TONS of cool features though

BDT

F1nut · April 2003

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Rock on, Troy

BTW, Micah was quite pleased that you have Polk speakers in your "desert rig." He actually chuckled. I feel a new ad campaign coming soon.

madmax · April 2003

I used to like the 901's. They had a very unique sound. It has been 15 years since I heard a pair. I wonder what I would think of them today? I'm lacking a pair of 901's here...
madmax

TroyD · April 2003

Actually, I have two rigs featuring Polk speakers....

I've got the Atriums in the overhang and a pair of R2's in the office.....Polk is rockin' the free world as I type....

BDT

TroyD or anyone who wants to read this.

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