Explanation of a DAC?

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halo
halo Posts: 5,619
edited February 2008 in Electronics
Can someone please explain what a DAC is and how it works as if you were trying to explain it to a slow witted child?

What I'm getting at is that if it does what I think it does why do people insist that the source / transport makes any difference what so ever.

If all the 0's and 1's are being run through the DAC, shouldn't a $50 DVD player sound just the same as a mega buck transport?

Where, exactly, in this situation is the difference made, if there is one?

Thanks in advance :)
HT Speakers: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * RSL Speedwoofer 12S
HT: Samsung 75QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra * APC H10

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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited February 2008
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    little halo, pay attention now... ;)


    this debate about "1's" and "0's" gets nowhere every time..

    the answer is yes.. every transport will sound the same if run thru a DAC. a $50 transport will sound the same as a $2000 transport. there I answered all the questions. :rolleyes:

    bye. end of story, ciao. :D
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,619
    edited February 2008
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    not trying to start a debate db. Just wanted an explanation. Thanks for your input. Much appreciated :)
    HT Speakers: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * RSL Speedwoofer 12S
    HT: Samsung 75QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra * APC H10

    2-Channel Audio: Von Schweikert VR-2 * Musical Fidelity M2si * WiiM Ultra * FiiO K11 R2R DAC
    Vinyl: Technics SL-50C * Denon DL-110 MC * iFi Zen Phono 3 * KAB RF1
    Video: LG OLED77B4PUA * Sony BDP-S470 * Roku Ultra * APC H10
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited February 2008
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    I think the quality of the transport debate isn't about the 0's and 1's, but more to do with the pace/timing of the 0's and 1's and the possible read errors in the data stream that the DAC then has to correct or compensate for.
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,619
    edited February 2008
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    makes sense Doug.

    As to DB's point, I guess the "better" the DAC the better the sound?
    HT Speakers: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * RSL Speedwoofer 12S
    HT: Samsung 75QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra * APC H10

    2-Channel Audio: Von Schweikert VR-2 * Musical Fidelity M2si * WiiM Ultra * FiiO K11 R2R DAC
    Vinyl: Technics SL-50C * Denon DL-110 MC * iFi Zen Phono 3 * KAB RF1
    Video: LG OLED77B4PUA * Sony BDP-S470 * Roku Ultra * APC H10
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited February 2008
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter


    Halo, there are lots of threads on this exact topic.. just like the never ending cable debates....

    anyway. glad I could be of help. ;)
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited February 2008
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    Not all transports sound the same. I'm not saying you have to go out and spend big bucks on one, because sometimes a cheaper one can sound better than a high dollar unit.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • furball
    furball Posts: 234
    edited February 2008
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    Technically, all a transport does is to extract the ones and zeros embedded in the CD. And a DAC's job is to convert these ones and zeroes to analog electrical signals which can then be amplified to power your speakers, which then becomes the sound.

    So, in an ideal world, this is how things should work. In the real world, it's a bit more complicated. There could be timing issues involved with the data extraction, leading to downstream decoding issues in the DAC, etc. A good DAC is supposed to correct for these problems.

    But in all honesty, CD is a very archaic storage medium.
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited February 2008
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    halo wrote: »
    Where, exactly, in this situation is the difference made, if there is one?

    Jitter. Some people claim they can hear a difference but jitter isn't really a problem until you get to more demanding applications. Audio that a human ear can hear isn't really affected by it.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,077
    edited February 2008
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    Again,it is the sum of all parts used,not any single one,as with most things audio.

    " archaic " storage medium......please explain.
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,619
    edited February 2008
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    Thanks for all the replies :)
    HT Speakers: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * RSL Speedwoofer 12S
    HT: Samsung 75QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra * APC H10

    2-Channel Audio: Von Schweikert VR-2 * Musical Fidelity M2si * WiiM Ultra * FiiO K11 R2R DAC
    Vinyl: Technics SL-50C * Denon DL-110 MC * iFi Zen Phono 3 * KAB RF1
    Video: LG OLED77B4PUA * Sony BDP-S470 * Roku Ultra * APC H10
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited February 2008
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    The problem with DACs is -- by the time you buy a decent DAC (let's say $500+) and a good transport (a stand-alone transport, not a CDP or DVDP; if you're gonna do separates, do it right, IMO), you could have purchased a nice CDP for the same piece of money that may sound just as good. With HT, its usually a slam dunk that separates are better than a receiver, but perhaps not so much with a DAC/transport vs. a CDP. In addition, you gotta deal with extra stuff, like cables and power cords that will affect the sound. After a while, it'll make you wonder what link in this chain actually accounts for most of the "improvement" in sound -- is it the DAC, transport, cables, DAC tubes (if any), ICs, power cords, etc.?
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,619
    edited February 2008
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    Early B. wrote: »
    The problem with DACs is -- by the time you buy a decent DAC (let's say $500+) and a good transport (a stand-alone transport, not a CDP or DVDP; if you're gonna do separates, do it right, IMO), you could have purchased a nice CDP for the same piece of money that may sound just as good. With HT, its usually a slam dunk that separates are better than a receiver, but perhaps not so much with a DAC/transport vs. a CDP. In addition, you gotta deal with extra stuff, like cables and power cords that will affect the sound. After a while, it'll make you wonder what link in this chain actually accounts for most of the "improvement" in sound -- is it the DAC, transport, cables, DAC tubes (if any), ICs, power cords, etc.?
    No offense Early, but that response wasn't very helpful nor did it explain how a DAC works or how or why a dedicated transport is better than a cheap DVD or CDP + DAC.

    Try to remember you are speaking to a slow witted child (me). Thanks.
    HT Speakers: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * RSL Speedwoofer 12S
    HT: Samsung 75QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra * APC H10

    2-Channel Audio: Von Schweikert VR-2 * Musical Fidelity M2si * WiiM Ultra * FiiO K11 R2R DAC
    Vinyl: Technics SL-50C * Denon DL-110 MC * iFi Zen Phono 3 * KAB RF1
    Video: LG OLED77B4PUA * Sony BDP-S470 * Roku Ultra * APC H10
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited February 2008
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    I have been thinking about a DAC when some money comes in. I could use it for say three different transports. Anyone ever use Adcom's older DACs.
    Thanks
    Ben
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,619
    edited February 2008
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    ben62670 wrote: »
    I have been thinking about a DAC when some money comes in. I could use it for say three different transports. Anyone ever use Adcom's older DACs.
    Thanks
    Ben

    Adcom GDA-700 - AGON LINK
    HT Speakers: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * RSL Speedwoofer 12S
    HT: Samsung 75QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra * APC H10

    2-Channel Audio: Von Schweikert VR-2 * Musical Fidelity M2si * WiiM Ultra * FiiO K11 R2R DAC
    Vinyl: Technics SL-50C * Denon DL-110 MC * iFi Zen Phono 3 * KAB RF1
    Video: LG OLED77B4PUA * Sony BDP-S470 * Roku Ultra * APC H10
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  • furball
    furball Posts: 234
    edited February 2008
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    If you want a good DAC, then I recommend the Benchmark DAC1. It is one of the best DAC's out there. Stereophile did a review on it, do a google search.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited February 2008
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    halo wrote: »
    No offense Early, but that response wasn't very helpful nor did it explain how a DAC works or how or why a dedicated transport is better than a cheap DVD or CDP + DAC.

    Try to remember you are speaking to a slow witted child (me). Thanks.


    Sorry. I thought db, dkg999, and furball responded adequately to your questions, and since you thanked them for their replies, I was free to ramble.:o
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,872
    edited February 2008
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    dkg999 wrote: »
    I think the quality of the transport debate isn't about the 0's and 1's, but more to do with the pace/timing of the 0's and 1's and the possible read errors in the data stream that the DAC then has to correct or compensate for.
    Exactly,for the signal to be sent from the transport to the DAC the data and clocks must be combined so they can be transmitted via coax or optical.The DAC then has to precisely separate these signals from each other but small timing errors(jitter) can result.Good DAC's will use sample rate converter chips at their inputs to reclock the data therefore reducing jitter and the influnce of the transport.My DAC uses one of these (a Cirrus CS8420) as the input reciever and I cannot detect any difference in transports be it a cheap DVD or CDP.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,619
    edited February 2008
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    So, when using a DAC is it better to use the digital output on the transport or the analog outputs?
    HT Speakers: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * RSL Speedwoofer 12S
    HT: Samsung 75QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra * APC H10

    2-Channel Audio: Von Schweikert VR-2 * Musical Fidelity M2si * WiiM Ultra * FiiO K11 R2R DAC
    Vinyl: Technics SL-50C * Denon DL-110 MC * iFi Zen Phono 3 * KAB RF1
    Video: LG OLED77B4PUA * Sony BDP-S470 * Roku Ultra * APC H10
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited February 2008
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    You would use the digital out on the transport if you're connecting it to a DAC.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,619
    edited February 2008
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    :cool: thanks.
    HT Speakers: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * RSL Speedwoofer 12S
    HT: Samsung 75QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra * APC H10

    2-Channel Audio: Von Schweikert VR-2 * Musical Fidelity M2si * WiiM Ultra * FiiO K11 R2R DAC
    Vinyl: Technics SL-50C * Denon DL-110 MC * iFi Zen Phono 3 * KAB RF1
    Video: LG OLED77B4PUA * Sony BDP-S470 * Roku Ultra * APC H10
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited February 2008
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    halo wrote: »
    So, when using a DAC is it better to use the digital output on the transport or the analog outputs?

    With a DAC you HAVE to use the digital outputs from a transport/CDP to your DAC.

    Stand alone DAC's, only have some kind of digital inputs.. toslink, coax, and a few more some times.. then they have a left and right RCA analog outputs that hook up to your receiver.
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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