Near Reference, Giant Killer CDP?

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phuz
phuz Posts: 2,372
edited February 2008 in Electronics
I'm looking to replace my Music Hall CD 25.2 with a permenant fixture in my main 2 channel rig. Not interested in tube players. Just a good old fashioned player that will get me near reference level quality, best bang for the buck. HDCD, SACD, etc. would all be added bonuses and would be nice. This will most likely be a used purchase, and would prefer to stay >$1k, but would go up to $1,500 for the right player. I've been looking at:

Rotel RCD-1072
Cambridge 740c/840c
NAD M5 Master Series
Lexicon RT-10 (if I can find one for the right $$$)

Does anyone have experience with the older Classe, Music Fidelity, and other not-quite-vintage-but-good-deal-on-audiogon players? Experience with Roksan? What's with YBA? Other suggestions?

Thanks.
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  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,971
    edited January 2008
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    any thought about an outboard dac?
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Digital cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2 bnc, Tellurium Q aes, Silnote Audio Poseidon Signature 2 bnc
    Puritan PSM156
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited January 2008
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    I would consider buying the DAC that's in the FM right now, and use your current CDP as the transport. Just a thought!
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited January 2008
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    marvda1 wrote: »
    any thought about an outboard dac?

    I would consider it for sure, but would the Music Hall CD 25.2 be a good enough transport for a high end DAC? The 25.2 is good, but I'm looking for tip top quality on a budget. I need a best kept secret... a CDP that I can use without questioning whether or not my source is an issue so I can have fun mixing and matching and demoing all of the other parts of the system.

    In other words, as I enjoy the hobby... I don't want to be bothered with swapping or changing or questioning CD players or sources. I want that to be a staple, because I will for sure be swapping just about every other part of a 2 channel rig including tubes.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,630
    edited January 2008
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    dkg999 wrote: »
    I would consider buying the DAC that's in the FM right now, and use your current CDP as the transport. Just a thought!

    +1 great idea as that DAC is very nice and would serve you well for a long time using your Music Hall as the transport.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | Holo Audio Cyan 2 Dac | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,384
    edited January 2008
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    I ordered the Cambridge Audio 840C & it should be here early Jan. I'm going to do a head to head with my Tube Audio DAC. I simply love the DAC, but my curiousity got the best of me after reading all the great things about the 840C. We'll see what happens.
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited January 2008
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    I look forward to your review of the 840C! I had the 640C v1 for a while, great CDP, but the Wolfson DAC didn't mesh well with my Magnepan's. I just picked up a 540D v2 for an upconverting DVD player. I like the build quality vs price point of the Cambridge Audio gear.

    Now back to the real topic of this thread!
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
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  • schwarcw
    schwarcw Posts: 7,360
    edited January 2008
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    phuz,

    Buy this one. I have heard the Rega Apollo a number of times at my friends house. It's a great player. There are a lot of audiophile reviews proclaiming the great sound of this unit. Tom's price is good for this great piece.
    Carl

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  • venomclan
    venomclan Posts: 2,467
    edited January 2008
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    Just to throw out another option:

    I read a review in TAS this past February on the Music Hall CD 25.2. They found that an upgrade to the stock power cord made a very large difference in performance of this unit if my memory serves me correct. I am not sure what pc they used or if you believe that they can make a difference, but it was pointed out in this unit and not the others reviewed against it, including the Rega Apollo and Saturn.
    Venom
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,638
    edited January 2008
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    DAC = Band-Aid. F NAIM.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 52,298
    edited January 2008
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    DAC = Band-Aid. F NAIM.

    Tell us how you really feel.....lol
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited January 2008
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    dkg999 wrote: »
    I would consider buying the DAC that's in the FM right now, and use your current CDP as the transport. Just a thought!

    Not that I'm doing a shameless comercial here but I agree. The transport on that MH is supposed to be very good and pair that with the DAC and I think you are good to go.
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited January 2008
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    venomclan wrote: »
    Just to throw out another option:

    I read a review in TAS this past February on the Music Hall CD 25.2. They found that an upgrade to the stock power cord made a very large difference in performance of this unit if my memory serves me correct. I am not sure what pc they used or if you believe that they can make a difference, but it was pointed out in this unit and not the others reviewed against it, including the Rega Apollo and Saturn.
    Venom

    That was a $350 power cord. It doesn't make sense to me to buy something more than half the price of the CDP that doesn't do anything in-particular to the signal.

    I was hot-to-trot on the MH 25.2 when it first came out but when I read that Sally R. had to put an after market power cable on it to make it shine, I stayed away from it.

    Phuz you may want to look at Underwood's upgrades to the 25.2, they are only about $200 and are supposed to make the player sound more like a $1500 to $2000 player. Here's the link to them, scroll down and you will find the upgrade.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,630
    edited January 2008
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    dorokusai wrote: »
    DAC = Band-Aid. F NAIM.

    A DAC is no more a band aid than using a separate pre-amp and amp in place of an integrated (same concept). With the popularity of music servers there are more mediocre DAC's built to a price point than ever before, but the Timbre isn't one of those. Stand alone DAC's are underrated and are a viable and smart solution for his situation.

    YMMV

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | Holo Audio Cyan 2 Dac | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • rskarvan
    rskarvan Posts: 2,374
    edited January 2008
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    An outboard DAC does wonderful things over a CD player. The ADCOM GDA700 DAC is balanced and includes jitter-reduction circuitry. These Adcom DACs are VERY GOOD and can be found used for right around $300.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited January 2008
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    dorokusai wrote: »
    DAC = Band-Aid.

    You said what's been in my head. Add transports and DIPs to the list of band-aids. A good CDP means it has a good DAC in it. No need to waste money on a separate one unless you're into stuff like computer rigs.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,630
    edited January 2008
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    Early B. wrote: »
    You said what's been in my head. Add transports and DIPs to the list of band-aids. A good CDP means it has a good DAC in it. No need to waste money on a separate one unless you're into stuff like computer rigs.

    Certainly true in some instance's but also not true in some instances. There is no doubt there are cdp's that equal or best some of the stand alone dac's out there but they are probably in the top 5% of units sold.

    As usual different strokes for left handed people, just don't want his to arbitrarily dismiss the addition of a high end DAC when it could be the answer to his situation.

    You and Doro are pretty emphatic with your dismissal of stand alone DAC's and as I've stated before there are no absolutes in this hobby. And to say DAC's are only good for computer rigs is laughable ;).

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | Holo Audio Cyan 2 Dac | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,630
    edited January 2008
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    Using your logic a pre-amp/amp combination is a band aid to getting a really good integrated amp :confused::confused:. Certainly there are great integrated's that sound better than certain separates but that's a general exception rather than the rule. Same goes for outboard DAC's.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | Holo Audio Cyan 2 Dac | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited January 2008
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    Another alternative would be to buy the Jolida 100 CDP for sale in the FM. Change the tubes, change the sound, play until you get the sound you likey! I'm pretty happy with my Jolida 100 CDP!
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,630
    edited January 2008
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    That's what's great about his place there are no less than 6 or so suggestions to the problem, all of them perfectly good. :D:)
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | Holo Audio Cyan 2 Dac | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,634
    edited January 2008
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    I am sure there are CDP's that sound better than any stand alone DAC, but I think the key here is cost. It seems to me that using a cheap CDP as a transport and a decent stand alone DAC will give you the sound of a much more expensive CDP.
    In my case, I was very happy with the Raysonic CD-128, but the DAC thread made me give it a try; I got a Musical Fidelity DAC, and it sounded as good as the Raysonic. I got a cheap Rotel to use as transport and sold the Raysonic. For about 1/2 the investment I get the same sound. Good move I think.
    _________________________________________________
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    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited January 2008
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    dorokusai wrote: »
    DAC = Band-Aid.

    Cough, cough, cobullshitugh, cough... ;)
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited January 2008
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    I don't see where a component specifically made to for digital to analog conversion can be called a band-aid as compared to a full blown CDP. If the proper attention is paid to the DAC in a CDP, it will sound awesome but will also cost a hell of a lot more money.

    I am very happy with the sound of my Oppo transport/Timbre DAC combo, the only reason I've changed it is because I've found that I love the sound of tubes and just placing a tube buffer in line just doesn't have the same magic as the CD 168.

    I've heard tube DACs under $1k and they don't compare IMHO to the sound of the Timbre DAC. I've not heard a DAC SS or tube under $2k that is even close in comparisom to the sound of the Timbre DAC, Jolida inclueded.

    I listened to several digital players in the high end, namely the Tri Vista, kW, & Cary players and they beat the sound, with the tubes engaged, of the Timbre DAC. All three of those players are considerably more money than the used Timbre DAC.

    The DAC in the 168 was where a tremendous amount of focus was placed by the designers and manufacturer. Match that with the tubes run in pure Class A and yes indeed I wanted that sound as it was close to my vinyl.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited January 2008
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    I'll bet 6 months from now half of you guys with DACS will have purchased CDPs and talking about how your new CDP sounds better than the DAC/transport combo you owned.

    Same is true with separates vs. int. amps. Same with full range vs. bookshelf/sub combos. In the end, it doesn't really matter, as long as you enjoy the sound coming out of the speakers. Any road will get you there, even Boombox Blvd.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • venomclan
    venomclan Posts: 2,467
    edited January 2008
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    hearingimpared wrote: »
    That was a $350 power cord. It doesn't make sense to me to buy something more than half the price of the CDP that doesn't anything in-particular to the signal.

    I was hot-to-trot on the MH 25.2 when it first came out but when I read that Sally R. had to put a power on it to make it shine, I shined away from it.

    Phuz you may want to look at Underwood's upgrades to the 25.2, they are only about $200 and are supposed to make the player sound more like a $1500 to $2000 player. Here's the link to them, scroll down and you will find the upgrade.

    I agree $350 is a lot for a $600 player. But if I had the player, I would try to experiment with the cheaper PS audio PC and see what they do. It must be a pain demoing pc's, but may be worht the time and $ not spending the extra $. The UW mods seems cool also.
    Venom
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  • rskarvan
    rskarvan Posts: 2,374
    edited January 2008
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    Early B. wrote: »
    You said what's been in my head. Add transports and DIPs to the list of band-aids. A good CDP means it has a good DAC in it. No need to waste money on a separate one unless you're into stuff like computer rigs.

    Also, a good DIP is not a band aide either. Unless you have a very-high-end cd transport, a good DIP will turn a mediocre source component into a quality transport. Bits may be bits but timing is everything.
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited January 2008
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    EB what is a DIP.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited January 2008
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    hearingimpared wrote: »
    EB what is a DIP.

    http://www.monarchyaudio.com/DIP.htm
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • hoosier21
    hoosier21 Posts: 4,432
    edited January 2008
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    hearingimpared wrote: »
    EB what is a DIP.

    several members fit this
    Dodd - Battery Preamp
    Monarchy Audio SE100 Delux - mono power amps
    Sony DVP-NS999ES - SACD player
    ADS 1230 - Polk SDA 2B
    DIY Stereo Subwoofer towers w/(4) 12 drivers each
    Crown K1 - Subwoofer amp
    Outlaw ICBM - crossover
    Beringher BFD - sub eq

    Where is the remote? Where is the $%#$% remote!

    "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us have...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited January 2008
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    Early B. wrote: »
    http://www.monarchyaudio.com/DIP.htm

    Thanks for info, I had left myself open for some shots but one took a good shot at the membership!!!
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited January 2008
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    venom: I've ordered a signal digital reference PC to try with the CD 25.2. I've read the same things you have, and also re-read some of the experiences and reviews of the MH CD 25.2. I am now considering just using it as a transport, and adding a DAC. There is a Musical Fidelity DAC on Agon right now that I've read/heard nothing but good things about. Still looking and researching....

    Rega? I have issues with top loaders.

    hearingimpaired: Your DAC for sale looks awesome.. I just have a concern about it's age and capability. It's a 1-bit DAC. I think I'd like to try some of the newer upsampling DACs. I will keep my eye on yours though, as long as it's around.

    If anyone can share some detailed information about upgrading/modding the op amps and various other parts of the CD 25.2, I'd be very interested. I'd want to order and do the work myself and haven't been able to find any good pictures, part #'s, sites to order from, or info on wether or not the op amps are drop in or solder in. I thought I had read in the past that the original CD 25 required soldering, and that the updated 25.2 had socket type op amps that could be replaced without soldering.

    Thanks.
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