Amps & power

well Phuz I'm glad you didn't beat around the bush.What the hell, tell me exactly how you feel about me......

it's the way of the Tao.

800!

Well, I'd actually like an answer to my question about sub amps. If it is so absolutely critical that each amp be exactly the same how do we explain the abberation of the sub amp? Yeah, sure the sub has to match and all that BUT the amp will NOT match the amps of the rest of the system which I think puts a dent in the argument that all the amps have to be exactly the same.

Don't underestimate the power and influence of marketing. If you do, you are kidding yourself.

As far as idustry standards go, ok, you give what they are and I ask WHY? Yet, essentially the answer is 'because they say so'. I also don't believe that industry standards are written in stone either.

Now as far as my thoughts on rigs, I don't begrudge anyone who has better gear than me. All I'm saying is that I don't need a VISA bill that I'll never get out from under to prove that I have the best stuff. All things considered, I'm ecstatic with my gear, even if it is on the other side of the world.


As for the rest of it, SSDD.......

BDT

Originally posted by dholmes
Just hooked them up today, I cant tell the difference in the wattage, I think my ears will start to bleed before I hear any difference!!!! Again, Thanks everyone ,

Just in case anybody missed this back on page 2.

Originally posted by liv4fam
Oh man.........................................Come on guys!!!!!!

I would expect more out of you than this but ooooooopppssss i forgot I am in the Polk forum.

Why the hell are you guys stuck on clipping? You should never ever clip an amplifier and if you do........Listen very carefully.
YOU ARE A SMACK!!!!!!!

And Troy let's talk about Dynamic range for a minute. Do you even understand how dynamic range works?
Let's see hmmmmmmmm? I will give you real world testing.

Mantis and I did a job that unfortunately was spec'ed out wrong from Soundex and it was exactly what we are talking about here.
Equipment was as follows.
Speakers.....Martin Logan Prodigy's
Martin Logan Theater center
Martin Logan Script rears and SB
Martin Logan Descent subwoofer
Electronics....Proceed AVP2+ Preamp
Proceed Amp 5 125x5
Proceed HPA-2 250x2
Pioneer Elite DV-47A
Monster Power HTPS-7000
Monster Power AVS-2000
Monster Interconnects
Transparent Speaker wires

Do any of see a problem with this system?

Well here is the problem.......The Proceed Amp 5 is running the center channel and the rears and SB channels and the HPA-2 is running the mains.

I will tell you that from REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE it can be done (for all you picky ****) but it doesn't work optimally.
This is what happens, when you do 2-channel music it works out great and I have no complaints in that department but when you put in a DVD the whole world just comes shattering done because of unequal power and the huge difference in Dynamic range which has absolutely nothing to do with clipping an amplifier.

I ran The Fast and the Furious DVD for testing purposes (and yes it is in DTS because you all think DTS is way bad) and I had the whole system set and calibrated to 75db PERFECT all the way around.

Well I began testing using the street race scene in Downtown Los Angeles and when the cars are pulling up to the line you can hear the crowd yelling and whistling and even hear the spray paint coming out of the can when they paint the line on a normal system but on this sytem the whole scene is in dynamic range because of the crowd engine noise and music track all going on at the same time which is a big strain for any system but the center was completely drowned out because of the mains and the rears were non-existant as well.

So I figured what the hell I will just drop the mains a few db and listen to that so i did and I had to put the mains all the way down about 8db just so I could hear the center again and then ran the scene but it lost all it's life because I had to cut the amp so much and the little 125x5 AMP 5 just didn't have the overall dynamics of even half the 2 channel so it sounded horrible. Finally after dicking with it trying to make it work we decide that this setup is not going to work andit's not worth trying to convince the customer that this is even close to being right so we decided to get the 2-channel out and put in the AMP 2 and now the system works absolutely beautiful and we could not be more pleased.

So in all my ranting here is my final conclusion..........If mismatching your speakers and amps and using receivers as pre-amps blows your skirt up than do it. WHO CARES!!!!!! You have to listen to it not me.
But in the really real world and not Polk fantasy land mismatching power amps and unequal power is not optmal for Hometheater.

You won't see it in my system nor high-end systems for that matter if done by good salesman and better installers.

There are a few issues here to deal with, that in a civil fashion, I'd like to talk about.

Sounds to me like either (A) the system WASN'T calibrated all that well or (B) the 125 wpc amp was being pushed harder than it was capable of, which, IMO, constitues clipping.

Also, maybe I'm confused but you had the 2 ch amp hooked up to the mains and the other channels hooked up to the 125wpc amp? Why not, from the get go, hook up the 5 channel amp to L,R,C and so forth and put the 2 ch amp to the rears? Wouldn't that have made more sense from the get go? Would that not, in essence what the guy who started the post was doing? A 3ch amp running the front three channels and a 175wpc amp driving the back two?

And again, if it's so critical that every channel have matching amps, how come we don't see receivers made with an extra powered channel and passive subs as being the industry standard. What about powered towers? Clearly that flaunts the industry standard as well. I think this is a pretty valid question here so what about it?

BDT

ToyD,
actually he has a 300 x 3 and a 175 x 5.This looks like he will have extra amp channels.Even going 7.1.
Dude last night we all had some fun with this topic,everyone was kicking,it was like old times for a minute.But since you wheren't there,it didn't have the same taste........I at least missed your input.
Anyways to answer your question about the high end system Liv4fam and myself did,the system was calibrated correctly with a SPL meter.We worked on that theater for almost a week straight.Both liv4fam and myself where juiced up on it as we felt that this one has all the qualities to make a mag shoot.A goal of ours to get into Homt Theater,Audio/video Interiors etc.The theater was a beautiful room with beautiful gear.But the amps worked against each other.Dynamic range was a complete mis match.The system was spec'd out the way we wired it.The 2 channel amp was sold for the mains and the 5 channel amp for all other channels.The 5 channel amp couldn't keep up with the 2 channel amp.At any volume level.But yes your point of using the 5 channel amp for the front 3 and surrounds would have yielded better performance, and powering the surrond back channels with the 2 channel amp.Then the front at least would have had balance.But the solution was to get a matching 2 channel amp at 125 to match the 5 channel amp.Thats what we did to correct the problem.
See the idea was the same as most of you in this forum.Give more power to the fronts for better fidelity for 2 channel,which in this case the customer was looking for,and at the same time,have a 7.1 digital system for movie watching.His ideas on how to build the system where part of the process.But in the end,we had to go our way to make everything work together.SACD and DVD AUDIO was way off as well when setup with the orignal amps.In the end my man,he was completely happy with the system after we swapped out the front amp.

And I'm sure this guy didn't PAY for all of your experimentation either I suppose. Seemed like a no brainer to me.

Do you have an answer about the sub amps? Yes or No, very simple Dan.

To be honest, I like to debate any topic but I could really do without the miscellaneous **** that your partner brings along with it. That I don't miss.

BDT

I'm sorry, I disagree. If an amp sounds different it sounds different and has different power capabilities being able to ratchet it up and down is all well and good but still doesn't address the issue. Subs play well into the audible range so wouldn't the differences in amps be a factor? I think it would given the industry standard.


Your typical sub amp is generally pretty low quality/high distortion even in your better subs. To me, that just solidifies my contention that a lot of this is a big issue about nothing.

I think you will find that powered subs gained popularity because most receivers don't have the juice to really run a sub properly and it's a matter of convenience rather than the optimum way of doing things.

Originally posted by faster100
, Not being on your knee's with a calculator and pocket protector figureing wattages and wire lengths... Have fun i say

enough said,

Mantis,

also i never said anyone was rich in here, and never pointed my comments to anyone, just an observation of how people deal with or without money,

I never call anyone out of there name in here, and i never personally attack anyone! for what they believe in.......

Originally posted by Ron-P

Chunky Monkey, the best! Not equal by any means though, more walnuts up front than chunks of dark chocolate. Clipping those frozen chunks of chocolate can hurt so be carful.
Peace Out~:D

Can the members of this forum agree on anything???

Leave it to Ron-P to start another fight!

HBomb

Originally posted by faster100
what fun is letting a thread die?? sheesh 6 pages is pretty impressive

LOL, i got 3 - 40 posts per page. I hate going through a bunch of pages......i think its funny how I post something that makes the ones being stupid look stupid and then they stop arguing their BS. quite comical.

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Man I have a headache.

Note to self, no more posting while drinking. Whew, what a night.

Cheers,
Russ

Last night was a DOOSIE for me!

My daughter was Baptised last night and the Wife and I had our marriage blessed in the Church so after the Party... me and a few friends proceeded to drink untill 6:00 AM. Uncle Jack put a woopen on my sorry **** and I am in PAIN over here! Would someone just Shoot me please?

HBomb

You sir, are a effin MORON." - Russ

aNOTHER RUSSMAN CLASSIC

keep up the good work

TroyD,

Also, I'd ask this of Dan and liv4fam, did that guy buy all that gear new, specifically the amps? If so, if it's such a sacred industry tradition that all channels must be equal, why was he allowed to buy a mismatched system? Clearly money was not the issue. My only conclusions would be that (A) the salesman didn't think it was such a sacred tradition (B) the salesman was more concerned about peddling gear as opposed to meeting the needs of the customer.

The correct answer is yes all gear was new including the amps.The customers idea was to mismatch the amps,I didn't take place in the orignal sale but we corrected this after it was setup.

And I'm sure this guy didn't PAY for all of your experimentation either I suppose. Seemed like a no brainer to me.

Well it was corrected in the time frame of the job.We where there just about a week.We alos programmed a Lexicon touch screen remote.The projector was a Sharp 9000u with a 150 inch Stewart Firehawk.