Amps & power

mantis · February 2003

The PRO has no more to say on this issue.You guys do what you want with your rigs.Unequal away.Who cares.Mine isn't!!

George Grand · February 2003

Somebody is letting their job title go to their head.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)

HBombToo · February 2003

Originally posted by George Grand
Somebody is letting their job title go to their head.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)

welcome back George... been in the air for awhile?

HBomb

RuSsMaN · February 2003

George is a family man, first and foremost.

Priorities Hbomb, priorities.

Cheers,
Rooster

gidrah · February 2003

Back to the point.

dholmes: I don't know off hand your current speaker ensemble, but most 5.1 lines don't even have matching sensitivities (the LSi is an exception), so any gain differences from your amps would be offset by your speakers anyways.

Regardless, if you calibrate your system you should be set. If not, you'll still be set. +/- 1dB (unless your system is in a gymnasium for the deaf) will not make any difference.

TroyD · February 2003

OK, not that I care to drag this out anymore, but I'm curious as to why, other than Dolby or THX recommendations that it is essential to have equal amps. If you aren't clipping, what's the point?

BDT

George Grand · February 2003

H-Bomb,

No, but I'm WALKING on air now. Plenty of flying to come I'm afraid. Not local flying either.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)

MxStYlEpOlKmAn · February 2003

I say, the Centers and Mains need the juice, but I run 5 channel stereo so all my speakers need some power

liv4fam · February 2003

Ha, Ha, Ha Ha.........................................

What's up Boys?????? Been a long time.

Well I heard about the nonsense today and thought I might like to retort!!!!

First of all, I heard all threw this thread was (and I quote)

I THINK
I THINK
I THINK

Do any of you know from experience and testing or just flapping your gums as usual and speculating?

I will be back later to discuss this interesting topic and I just wanted to give a shout out to my fan club.
Micah

TroyD

Russman:D
Hbomb:p

To be continued!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mantis · February 2003

No one answered any of my questions as well.

phuz · February 2003

B.S. I'm tired of all of this selective reading.

Just like I said, the fact is that equal power isn't an issue for most people and never will be. Just like most people don't need THX.

Equal power is nice. THX is nice. But not many people need it or will notice much of a difference. FACT.

I believe this thread started when someone asked if adding a 2ch amp would cause a mismatch in sound. The truth is, maybe. If so, it's minimal and would be fine until he (IF he) feels the need to add more power to the other channels. Most likely when the levels are set properly he will be really happy. It's not like the speakers or timbre will be mismatched. Sheeesh.

Do you guys really think that most people who get a 2ch amp stop there? How many people do you know that begin a journey into seperates and stop at a 2ch amp with a reciever as a pre/pro and never get any more amps or anything? Please? How many do you know?

IMO anyone who makes such a big deal out of something like this has some issues. Issues for which you should seek professional help (cheezy fight club line).

If you can afford it, getting a 5ch amp is ideal. But it's often more costly. Adding a 2ch amp is a GOOD THING. You will LOVE IT. AND you can ALWAYS add (not necessarily equal amps) to it LATER for even better performance if you want! Heck you could even add a 5ch amp later to make 7 channels! Wow, you mean starting with a 2ch amp leaves room for flexability later on? CrAzY!

jcaut · February 2003

Perhaps some of us should do a little more THINKing.

If I counted correctly, the consensus is 13 to 2 that it will be okay to use the Adcom amps in the original question, in a HT, despite the difference in power. It wasn't about an amp and a receiver---it was two like-branded, comparable-in-quality, power amps. So dholmes can take the advice from whichever side he chooses--- or just get the amps and give it a try and see if HE can hear any difference.

Either way, this needs to be wrapped up or it's heading for the "Hall of Shame". It was a good question, it's been sufficiently discussed, and I THINK it's over with.

mantis · February 2003

OK thats fine BUT.......
If using unequal power is fine and you can't notice the difference,then why have the extra power?If the different amps can perform the same,then I see no need to have the extra power.
So tell me boys,why do you need unequal power?Whats the use?
You guys in general do things alot differently then I'm trained and have experienced.The unequal power thing I have tried 3 times with no luck.Funny how I noticed it.Why can't anyone else?

MxStYlEpOlKmAn · February 2003

AUstin powers -- Cant u see this is causing me PHYSCHOLOGICAL HARM!???????

Really, Im tempted to buy the GFA-535II for the surrounds, 40 less wats, if It clips before the 545II I'll let you know.

Mantis -- each time u tested this theory of urs did you use receivers to amps? If so the receiver amps will alwayz clip before the amps amps - unless u got one heck of a receiver or a VERY crappy amp. Other than that, why do you care...really? I mean We've said it before, 10 clean wats is better than 100 dirty. So if we use 100 for the mains, and 10 clean for the center and surrounds, which will distort first?

My dad has taught me to use 2 channel amps because when u use a multi channel amp u get alot of mixture in there, 'crosstalk' i think it was called. Other than that, it just looks cooler to have all those huge boxs stacked up on top of each other! LOL! -- and My Dad is proof to your theory is incorrect in some basis, He uses a 300 wat yammer, with 60 wat adcom's - Those amps can run head to head, and can reach the same volume - and neither distort or clip.

mantis · February 2003

We've huh.
I don't care my man......I just wanted to understand why people do what they do.
I tried it and didn't like it.

MxStYlEpOlKmAn · February 2003

Well i can tell ya, people buy large amps for their mains because they want the power fed to em. Then they dont want to lay down alot of cash for the rest, and skip a little corners and pay a little less (this is my case) I plan to buy the GFA-545II for my mains, and a center and the GFA-535II for the surrounds. I bet the GFA-535II wont clip at all.

phuz · February 2003

Originally posted by jcaut
Perhaps some of us should do a little more THINKing.

If I counted correctly, the concentus is 13 to 2 that it will be okay to use the Adcom amps in the original question, in a HT, despite the difference in power. It wasn't about an amp and a receiver---it was two like-branded, comparable-in-quality, power amps. So dholmes can take the advice from whichever side he chooses--- or just get the amps and give it a try and see if HE can hear any difference.

Either way, this needs to be wrapped up or it's heading for the "Hall of Shame". It was a good question, it's been sufficiently discussed, and I THINK it's over with.

Wow you are right. I guess I got my threads mixed up not to mention my frustration at how much this has been beat to death and the concentus (sp?) is always the same.

Thanks for the clarification.

George Grand · February 2003

Neighborhood's going south anyway, so what the ****.....

I guess nobody but you has PRO ears there Mantis.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)

phuz · February 2003

Originally posted by mantis

I don't care my man......I just wanted to understand why people do what they do.

Top reasons people do things that Mantis doesn't agree with.

1. Budget
2. Availability
3. Opportunity
4. Flexability in Upgrade Path
5. Because They Want To

jcaut · February 2003

BTW, I edited consensus, LOL. Got a little carried away on that one. THINK, THINK, THINK

That post didn't offend you, did it, phuz? I'll have to go back and re-read, but I got a little worried when I saw you quoted me. I wasn't really trying to offend anyone.

phuz · February 2003

Originally posted by jcaut
BTW, I edited consensus, LOL. Got a little carried away on that one. THINK, THINK, THINK

That post didn't offend you, did it, phuz? I'll have to go back and re-read, but I got a little worried when I saw you quoted me. I wasn't really trying to offend anyone.

Not at all, I was just quoting to make sure my comment was directed properly.

TroyD · February 2003

Well, it would seem to me that the majority of us have or had unequal amps and have had no issues, of course we are rank amateurs. The fact that we are doing it with no complaints should be sufficient but the fact remains that as long as you are not clipping it doesn't make one bit of difference what the amps are rated at.

I believe that it was Dan that stated that they were neccessary, so where is the proof? Just because Dolby says so? C'mon Dan, you started this ballywick, the ball is in your court.

BDT

dholmes · February 2003

BOY did I start a good discussion or what? It has been very interesting reading. Both amps I am using are Adcom, one is the 7805 300x5, the other is 7700 175x5 for the rears. Just hooked them up today, I cant tell the difference in the wattage, I think my ears will start to bleed before I hear any difference!!!! Again, Thanks everyone ,

TroyD · February 2003

good on ya man, good on ya. I think you made a wise choice. enjoy.

BDT

madmax · February 2003

If I had amps of different power ratings I would put the lower power ones on the surrounds.
madmax

TroyD · February 2003

Originally posted by mantis
answer me this then.A couple of years ago when Pro logic was in,unequal power receiver you found all the time.Then when Dolby Digital hit the market,EVERY SINGLE receiver manufactor went equal power for all channels.Find 1 receiver today that uses unequal power???Just one.
So what your saying on this is that dynamic range means nothing.Unequal power is the way to go.....brings me to my second question....why would you want unequal power in the first place????Why?

Just want to make sure we are addressing Dan's questions.

The Prologic one, we already covered. I think you will find that it was because the rear channels were limited range, mono and so forth.

In most cases, yes, the dynamic range means nothing. If you are NOT clipping the amp, then dynamic range is a moot point

Why would you want to use unequal power in the first place? I dunno, because you can? Maybe you are buying amps one at a time? I can think of quite a few. The arguments against multichannel amps are plentiful. They are few in number, expensive, don't offer a lot of flexibility. Plus (as George noted) with a 5 channel amp, if one channel goes to the shop, the other 4 go with it.

Anything else?

BDT

brettw22 · February 2003

Originally posted by TroyD
Plus (as George noted) with a 5 channel amp, if one channel goes to the shop, the other 5 go with it.

All the more reason that I plan on going with a receiver as my pre/pro. Having alternatives is a good thing.......

shack · February 2003

Why would you want to use unequal power in the first place? I dunno, because you can? Maybe you are buying amps one at a time? I can think of quite a few. The arguments against multichannel amps are plentiful. They are few in number, expensive, don't offer a lot of flexibility. Plus (as George noted) with a 5 channel amp, if one channel goes to the shop, the other 5 go with it.

I hate to say this but I think to some extent MX has a valid real world point :rolleyes:

Well i can tell ya, people buy large amps for their mains because they want the power fed to em. Then they dont want to lay down alot of cash for the rest, and skip a little corners and pay a little less

I think that a lot of folks take their limited resources and put them where they will get the most bang for the buck with the idea they can upgrade the rest later. Lots of power to the mains and let the receiver run the rest or use a smaller amp for the rears and surrounds since they are not so demanding. If it works...fine.

In my case I would prefer equal "High Power" amplification all around. To quote George Grand "You can never have too much power" and I would assume that would apply to center and surrounds. If it can all be done in one box ie a receiver then that is fine. If I step up to separates, I don't want to use multiple power amps or mono blocks just because of the sheer magnitude of cables and stuff. My HT is rather simple and it's a mess of wires and gear. Give me a 5 or 7 channel amp in a single box. As I upgrade I will either go with a Flagship receiver or a pre-pro amp combo...no more.

Again, for most of us that aren't independently wealthy choices are made based on economics. Compromises are made based on what will work and what is acceptable...not what is ideal. (Like MX said)

polkatese · February 2003

If I step up to separates, I don't want to use multiple power amps or mono blocks just because of the sheer magnitude of cables and stuff. My HT is rather simple and it's a mess of wires and gear. Give me a 5 or 7 channel amp in a single box. As I upgrade I will either go with a Flagship receiver or a pre-pro amp combo...no more.

very well said, Shack, the most I will consider for the next upgrade is to flagship pre/pro combo (much later in the future)...something like the b&k ref50/ref 200.7.

liv4fam · February 2003

Oh man.........................................Come on guys!!!!!!

I would expect more out of you than this but ooooooopppssss i forgot I am in the Polk forum.

Why the hell are you guys stuck on clipping? You should never ever clip an amplifier and if you do........Listen very carefully.
YOU ARE A SMACK!!!!!!!

And Troy let's talk about Dynamic range for a minute. Do you even understand how dynamic range works?
Let's see hmmmmmmmm? I will give you real world testing.

Mantis and I did a job that unfortunately was spec'ed out wrong from Soundex and it was exactly what we are talking about here.
Equipment was as follows.
Speakers.....Martin Logan Prodigy's
Martin Logan Theater center
Martin Logan Script rears and SB
Martin Logan Descent subwoofer
Electronics....Proceed AVP2+ Preamp
Proceed Amp 5 125x5
Proceed HPA-2 250x2
Pioneer Elite DV-47A
Monster Power HTPS-7000
Monster Power AVS-2000
Monster Interconnects
Transparent Speaker wires

Do any of see a problem with this system?

Well here is the problem.......The Proceed Amp 5 is running the center channel and the rears and SB channels and the HPA-2 is running the mains.

I will tell you that from REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE it can be done (for all you picky ****) but it doesn't work optimally.
This is what happens, when you do 2-channel music it works out great and I have no complaints in that department but when you put in a DVD the whole world just comes shattering done because of unequal power and the huge difference in Dynamic range which has absolutely nothing to do with clipping an amplifier.

I ran The Fast and the Furious DVD for testing purposes (and yes it is in DTS because you all think DTS is way bad) and I had the whole system set and calibrated to 75db PERFECT all the way around.

Well I began testing using the street race scene in Downtown Los Angeles and when the cars are pulling up to the line you can hear the crowd yelling and whistling and even hear the spray paint coming out of the can when they paint the line on a normal system but on this sytem the whole scene is in dynamic range because of the crowd engine noise and music track all going on at the same time which is a big strain for any system but the center was completely drowned out because of the mains and the rears were non-existant as well.

So I figured what the hell I will just drop the mains a few db and listen to that so i did and I had to put the mains all the way down about 8db just so I could hear the center again and then ran the scene but it lost all it's life because I had to cut the amp so much and the little 125x5 AMP 5 just didn't have the overall dynamics of even half the 2 channel so it sounded horrible. Finally after dicking with it trying to make it work we decide that this setup is not going to work andit's not worth trying to convince the customer that this is even close to being right so we decided to get the 2-channel out and put in the AMP 2 and now the system works absolutely beautiful and we could not be more pleased.

So in all my ranting here is my final conclusion..........If mismatching your speakers and amps and using receivers as pre-amps blows your skirt up than do it. WHO CARES!!!!!! You have to listen to it not me.
But in the really real world and not Polk fantasy land mismatching power amps and unequal power is not optmal for Hometheater.

You won't see it in my system nor high-end systems for that matter if done by good salesman and better installers.

Amps & power

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