Polk rti a7 crossover problem

Options
emrser
emrser Posts: 5
edited October 29 in DIY, Mods & Tweaks
Hi , I usually used for polk audio rti a7 speakers for 10+ years the crossover of my right speaker's resistance burned and get repaired , so therefore sound tone differeances occured about the treble and mid frequencies ( ı thinkThe upper-mids and highs sound more subdued compared to the other one.) , ı need to make it equal with the left and right speakers , so ı observed the schematic of rti a7 and crossovers , so ı need to ask some questions about that

İf ı change my right my speaker's crossover's resistance and capacitor to new and same value ( same tolerance , same uf , ohm etc ) with the different brand (just like jantzen or dyton ) may ı get the equality of sound in contrast with the left speaker which is have fabrication crossover ? (Yes the resistance burned but it may damaged on the capacitors and resistance on the mid and treble ) Or there is no make it equality ? Because the fabrication crossovers res, and cap may have some different esp values even if its the same tolerance and electronic values ? , Or do ı have to both changed ?

Comments

  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,969
    edited October 29
    Options
    The only way to make sure is to measure all the components. An LCR meter would work well. Depending upon the circuit you may or may not have to lift one lead (desolder) of the component to check.

    Of course the way to make sure would be to replace all the components with like values but on small boards that can require some creativity, especially if you are wanting to upgrade from electrolytic capacitors to film types which are much larger in size.

    If you have good ears and an audio chain that is highly resolving you will hear the difference between different components IMO (especially capacitors) so I wouldn't use different ones from L to R crossovers.

    I'm not vouching for this one, but here's an LCR meter:

    https://www.amazon.com/Proster-Multimeter-Capacitance-Resistance-Inductance/dp/B071WNNYQT/ref=sr_1_5_sspa
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
  • emrser
    emrser Posts: 5
    Options
    The only way to make sure is to measure all the components. An LCR meter would work well. Depending upon the circuit you may or may not have to lift one lead (desolder) of the component to check.

    Of course the way to make sure would be to replace all the components with like values but on small boards that can require some creativity, especially if you are wanting to upgrade from electrolytic capacitors to film types which are much larger in size.

    If you have good ears and an audio chain that is highly resolving you will hear the difference between different components IMO (especially capacitors) so I wouldn't use different ones from L to R crossovers.

    I'm not vouching for this one, but here's an LCR meter:

    https://www.amazon.com/Proster-Multimeter-Capacitance-Resistance-Inductance/dp/B071WNNYQT/ref=sr_1_5_sspa

    First of all , thank you for your interest . Unfortunately ı dont have any choice to remove any components from the circuit because i can make them damage or ruin , so it is required to extract to components from the circuit to check exact result with the help of LCR meter , therefore ı created thread about that , ı will not choice the approximate value of those capacitor and resistances , ı will choice the exact same values of replacing the capacitors and resistance , but ı cant find the exact brand of the elements , so it will the same value but different brand , so it menas different brand means the different sound tonage ? I need to know that , but if we cant know this without the measurement , In that case, this could mean that the contraction is narrowing the circle.
  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,969
    edited October 29
    Options
    Here's a guy who goes into great detail of his own perceptions of the audible differences between different capacitors: https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

    I would take the opportunity to upgrade to a higher quality brand and type, so in other words, I wouldn't even bother trying to find the ones that Polk used; they are decent quality but to satisfy a price point. You can do much much better.

    Don't put any new components in any position on the L board without making the exact same change in the R board is what I'm saying. Brand, Model, and Value.

    Basic hierarchy of increasing (from L to R) Sound Quality:

    Electrolytics >> Audio Grade Electrolytics >> Mylar Metalized Film >> Polypropylene Metalized Film >> Metal Foil Caps

    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 8,331
    edited October 30
    Options
    I am hoping you have the crossover schematic. If not, the PDF is located here: https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/202480/rti-a-series-crossovers#latest
    Regarding components, Mills MRA 12W are generally a standard for crossover resistors. Some will argue that the Dayton non-inductive wirewound resistors from Partsexpress are close in quality, but significantly less expensive. Either will be better than the original sandcast resistors. I would use decent capacitors in the tweeter circuit. Jantzen Cross Caps, or Clarity Cap PX at a minimum. Size is a factor on the larger capacitors in the woofer section, and since they are shunt caps, they don't have as much of an effect on sound quality. Non-polar electrolytic is what the factory came with and using new equivalents will give you similar sound to what you had.
    One thing to look out for, is the inductors could have been damaged by overcurrent. You'll need an LCR meter to measure those. An out of spec inductor can make a big difference in sound between channels. I've had it happen to me on a vintage set of Mirage M3.
  • emrser
    emrser Posts: 5
    Options
    billbillw wrote: »
    I am hoping you have the crossover schematic. If not, the PDF is located here: https://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/202480/rti-a-series-crossovers#latest
    Regarding components, Mills MRA 12W are generally a standard for crossover resistors. Some will argue that the Dayton non-inductive wirewound resistors from Partsexpress are close in quality, but significantly less expensive. Either will be better than the original sandcast resistors. I would use decent capacitors in the tweeter circuit. Jantzen Cross Caps, or Clarity Cap PX at a minimum. Size is a factor on the larger capacitors in the woofer section, and since they are shunt caps, they don't have as much of an effect on sound quality. Non-polar electrolytic is what the factory came with and using new equivalents will give you similar sound to what you had.
    One thing to look out for, is the inductors could have been damaged by overcurrent. You'll need an LCR meter to measure those. An out of spec inductor can make a big difference in sound between channels. I've had it happen to me on a vintage set of Mirage M3.

    Thank you for your interest @Gardenstater And thank you, too. , ı emailed to guy who has it own topic which is you have sent before and he said that even if the values and tolerances are the same replace with a new capacitors and resistances , there will not be equality about the stereo scene , so he recommended the both side changed just like you have said

    @billbillw actually ı just wanted to make it equal stereo tonage related to both side voice and ı wanted to protect polk audio rti a7' sound characteristic and ı dont wanted to upgrade these speakers , tehrefore ı thought that if ı changed the elements of the crossover replace with in same values of elements provide the protecting of the rti a7's sound characteristic , The schematic for my A7 is included in the topic you sent.There is a 8.2uf y.c brand 50v eletrolyc capacitor and 2.4ohm %5 tolerance resistor on the treble side , Moreover there is a 18uf y.c brand 50v capacitor and resistance on the mid side , I wanted to replace the components with ones having the exact same values—albeit from a different brand - thinking that, as you suggested, I could achieve the same character and sound rather than just something "similar." I hoped to do this without touching the other original speaker, but it seems things might work a bit differently in electronics. What approach did you take to ensure consistency?
  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,969
    edited October 30
    Options
    So there are possibilities here of components being out of spec and there is also the possibility of components that have been damaged.

    I'm not trying to be curt but if you aren't testin' you're guessin'.

    You are saying you don't want to upgrade and, frankly, that would be very limited in feasibility anyways if you wanted to go with film capacitors and air core inductors. They designed this board to be very compact and used lots of axial radial mount electrolytic capacitors with the only film caps being two small mylar 0.47uF bypass caps. There are also mostly iron core inductors which are much more compact than air cores.

    Can you maybe ask more detailed questions? There may be forum members that have some experience with high quality electrolytic capacitors with low dissipation factors (DF) and esr's (effective series resistance) that they could recommend but a lot will depend upon your location and their availability there.

    Here's what the crossover looks like, as you probably know but people reading this thread don't all know:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/407140627114

    hqz7tloozwsg.png

    e9o0tzp7b8uh.png

    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
  • emrser
    emrser Posts: 5
    Options
    @Gardenstater I have personally examined the circuit board, both in terms of its schematic and its individual components—yes, it is the board shown in the photo. While the only way to be 100% certain would be to remove every component and test them one by one, that is beyond my current capabilities. Based on my own assessment—supported by input from an AI (to which I had sent a photo of the board)—and the fact that the coils appear to be in good condition, I suspect the issue lies with the capacitors and resistors. The sound quality problem, specifically affecting the mid and high frequencies, points toward these components; the AI ​​also suggested focusing primarily on the capacitors, noting that Mylar capacitors, in particular, rarely fail.

    For instance, the circuit shows that an 8.2 µF capacitor—paired with a bypass capacitor—and a 2.4-ohm resistor are used for the mid-range section. I reasoned that by using components with the exact same values—an 8.2 µF capacitor and a 2.4-ohm resistor from the brand Jantzen—I could closely replicate the circuit design implemented by the Polk engineers and achieve the same sonic characteristics.

    Of course, even without taking any measurements, the fact that the artificial intelligence specifically highlighted the mid and treble sections—where I’ve been experiencing a "veiled" or "muffled" sound—suggests that replacing the components in these parts could largely resolve the issue. Even if the coils appear to be in good condition, their actual values ​​might have drifted, making it logical to simply purchase a new crossover. This is especially true considering that, to perform accurate measurements, one would have to desolder every single component anyway; if I were to replace the capacitors and resistors with new ones of the same nominal values ​​but still fail to achieve the desired sound character, then buying a new crossover would definitely be the most sensible approach.

    I hope this explanation is clear and that my message didn't come across as annoying.
  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 8,331
    edited October 30
    Options
    Coils can look normal and be vastly off from spec if they were exposed to excess current. If you are going to DIY a repair, you really need to have the tools. Otherwise, you are wasting your time just visually examining things and relying on AI. Don't trust AI for things like this. Visual exams won't tell you anything unless there is a burnt part. In my case, I had a coil that was way off and didn't filter the midrange out of a woofer. It looked exactly the same as the one that was in spec.
  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,969
    edited October 30
    Options
    No annoyance at all. I looked at the crossover and you shouldn't have to remove any components to test them all. The drivers have fastons and can be disconnected. You are aided by the fact that capacitors don't pass DC current which is what the continuity testing for shorts and opens will involve. The speaker cables should of course not be in place. The only thing you might have to do is desolder one lead on each of the bypass mylar caps, in order to test both parallel caps independently. To avoid heat damage just clip a small hemostat onto the lead and that will help with pulling it out as well. Check resistances, continuity, inductances and capacitance with an LCR meter. You can even get ones that do ESR and DF.

    You can probe the board on the trace side by placing the probes of the meter on the solder pads.

    I looked a bit for radial bipolar electrolytic caps on the audio sites and there isn't much but that's getting ahead of ourselves.

    I have to wonder why the AI "thinks" that the 10.0uf tweeter capacitor is not subject to damage. The current would be greater through it than the 8.2 uf.

    I see from reviews that the crossover frequencies are 2.7 kHz and 125 Hz, both at 12 dB per octave fwiw.

    PS: Another option is to buy that crossover that I posted the link to but that is a US listing and I'm guessing you are elsewhere. Here's another one that is even cheaper:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/137853249205

    20og9innxrmy.jpg
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Onkyo A-8017 integrated
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform