R2R dac vs. Delta Sigma type dac

rebelsoul · May 15

rebelsoul wrote: »

Just ordered this dac from sw1
Sw1 dac 4 special. Filter less r2r dac tube

Sorry it was sw-1 3 special dac .

HzTweaker · May 16

rebelsoul wrote: »

I am surprised I have my shop dac and streamer in my main rig.
Mimir schiit
Wiim amp ultra. And it's sounds as good as the ps audio perfect wave dac 2 with bridge 2. The mirmir has depth and great soundstage . Listening to fink live troubles is what your in and pretty amazed on sound . Looking for high end streamer and dac have 5 grand to spend any thoughts

Nice looking setup you have there. What are the speakers? @rebelsoul

Edit: I'm still digging my K13 r2r dac. I need to go ahead and add it to my signature.

Fun story, about a month ago I had a friend over who I haven't hung out with in a while. We went to lunch and I was describing the sound experience I was getting with the R13 in place to him. So he said "cool when we get back to the house I'd like to listen to it".

Now for some context this how the speakers were set up. The Maggies were in their designated spots with my sub located in the middle. On each side of the sub my LSi9s are sitting on their stands.

After the listening sesh ended he said "I cant believe how well you blended all those speakers together". I said "those (LSi9s) aren't even hooked up". Then in disbelief he got up and checked the back of the speakers and then said "It sounded like the singer was standing right Infront of me like that's what was coming out of those (LSi) speakers". I just grinned with a feeling of "mission accomplished" lol.

rebelsoul · May 16

HzTweaker wrote: »

rebelsoul wrote: »

I am surprised I have my shop dac and streamer in my main rig.
Mimir schiit
Wiim amp ultra. And it's sounds as good as the ps audio perfect wave dac 2 with bridge 2. The mirmir has depth and great soundstage . Listening to fink live troubles is what your in and pretty amazed on sound . Looking for high end streamer and dac have 5 grand to spend any thoughts

Nice looking setup you have there. What are the speakers? @rebelsoul

Edit: I'm still digging my K13 r2r dac. I need to go ahead and add it to my signature.

Fun story, about a month ago I had a friend over who I haven't hung out with in a while. We went to lunch and I was describing the sound experience I was getting with the R13 in place to him. So he said "cool when we get back to the house I'd like to listen to it".

Now for some context this how the speakers were set up. The Maggies were in their designated spots with my sub located in the middle. On each side of the sub my LSi9s are sitting on their stands.

After the listening sesh ended he said "I cant believe how well you blended all those speakers together". I said "those (LSi9s) aren't even hooked up". Then in disbelief he got up and checked the back of the speakers and then said "It sounded like the singer was standing right Infront of me like that's what was coming out of those (LSi) speakers". I just grinned with a feeling of "mission accomplished" lol.

Reimer tentons gs , with updated woofers
All silver wiring. They hit 16 hrz

rebelsoul · May 16

rebelsoul wrote: »

HzTweaker wrote: »

rebelsoul wrote: »

I am surprised I have my shop dac and streamer in my main rig.
Mimir schiit
Wiim amp ultra. And it's sounds as good as the ps audio perfect wave dac 2 with bridge 2. The mirmir has depth and great soundstage . Listening to fink live troubles is what your in and pretty amazed on sound . Looking for high end streamer and dac have 5 grand to spend any thoughts

Nice looking setup you have there. What are the speakers? @rebelsoul

Edit: I'm still digging my K13 r2r dac. I need to go ahead and add it to my signature.

Fun story, about a month ago I had a friend over who I haven't hung out with in a while. We went to lunch and I was describing the sound experience I was getting with the R13 in place to him. So he said "cool when we get back to the house I'd like to listen to it".

Now for some context this how the speakers were set up. The Maggies were in their designated spots with my sub located in the middle. On each side of the sub my LSi9s are sitting on their stands.

After the listening sesh ended he said "I cant believe how well you blended all those speakers together". I said "those (LSi9s) aren't even hooked up". Then in disbelief he got up and checked the back of the speakers and then said "It sounded like the singer was standing right Infront of me like that's what was coming out of those (LSi) speakers". I just grinned with a feeling of "mission accomplished" lol.

Reimer tentons gs , with updated woofers
All silver wiring. They hit 16 hrz

rebelsoul · May 16

This will be my first r2r dac . He and two others make the dacd 4 months wait time .

HzTweaker · May 19

Thanks rebelsoul, looking forward to hearing your impressions on your r2r dac.

heiney9 · May 19

I should have the Warmer R2R dac on June 1st. It's on its way! Apos has been great so far. I have received (2) 10% off discounts for each of the 2 shipping delays. I didn't even ask. Plus I bought at a sale price.

This coincides with a week off. Should be able to get some quality listening time in.

H9

rebelsoul · May 19

HzTweaker wrote: »

Thanks rebelsoul, looking forward to hearing your impressions on your r2r dac.

It better be awesome spent a lot of money.lol

jdjohn · May 26

I now have the Metrum RTR DAC3 modules installed in my Onyx DAC.
Out with the old:

And in with the new:

Wow...the new RTR DAC3 Metrum Acoustic modules take the sound up to the limit of
the Delta Sigma chip sound, but just a smidge off from it. As per normal, it comes down to personal taste.

billbillw · May 26

Give it some time. RTR might seem a little less detailed at first, but that just the lack of artificial sizzle/air that Delta-Sigma adds. Over time, I think your ears will adjust and you will start noticing more nuance and natural sounding music.

heiney9 · May 26

It has arrived! A whole week early! Hopefully I'll have time tonight to start the break-in process. I was not expecting it today or I would have left the gate open to have it delivered on the front porch.

H9

heiney9 · May 26

billbillw wrote: »

Give it some time. RTR might seem a little less detailed at first, but that just the lack of artificial sizzle/air that Delta-Sigma adds. Over time, I think your ears will adjust and you will start noticing more nuance and natural sounding music.

Good to know. I will be taking my time with this one. I also have tubes to roll for the barely adequate stock JJ's. I just found out you only have to roll (2) of the 4 tubes if you are running single ended (RCA) rather than balanced. That's a $150 savings! I have a quad of 1973- 6N23p's and a quad 1968- Amperex Holland Bugle Boy 6DJ8's to roll.

I really want to get a pair of 1975, silver shield, single wire getter post Reflektor 6N23P's. A quad costs more than the unit itself. Now that I know I only need a pair, I saved about $150!!!!! LOL.

H9

P.s trying to keep my expectations in check..........reviews have been both glowing and some exposing flaws. Much of the flaws have been the JJ's. I like crispness, decay, but not biting or ringing in my treble.

billbillw · May 26

billbillw wrote: »

Give it some time. RTR might seem a little less detailed at first, but that just the lack of artificial sizzle/air that Delta-Sigma adds. Over time, I think your ears will adjust and you will start noticing more nuance and natural sounding music.

I might have misinterpreted what Jody was saying above. I thought he was going from a D-S to RTR with the module change, but later realized it was just a newer RTR module with more range and accuracy. The comment is still relevant for anyone switching from Delta Sigma.

heiney9 · May 26

billbillw wrote: »

billbillw wrote: »

Give it some time. RTR might seem a little less detailed at first, but that just the lack of artificial sizzle/air that Delta-Sigma adds. Over time, I think your ears will adjust and you will start noticing more nuance and natural sounding music.

I might have misinterpreted what Jody was saying above. I thought he was going from a D-S to RTR with the module change, but later realized it was just a newer RTR module with more range and accuracy. The comment is still relevant for anyone switching from Delta Sigma.

I am a little confused by his post as well. RTR that sounds like Delta Sigma? Why change then? Perhaps I'm reading the statement to literally.........I'm known for that.....lol.

If all goes well in the office rig with the RTR, I'll be looking/researching/taking advice on an excellent RTR for the main rig. But that's a ways down the road, perhaps...........

I expect these will be different enough that I'll need some time to really choose between them. I will say with the discrete op-amps installed in my Eastern Electric, it sounds pretty damn good. Great sound stage, great bass weight, very transparent, lots of natural decay. Can hear into the recording space, etc.

I am really interested in something different and putting it through the paces.

H9

jdjohn · May 27

billbillw wrote: »

I might have misinterpreted what Jody was saying above. I thought he was going from a D-S to RTR with the module change, but later realized it was just a newer RTR module with more range and accuracy. The comment is still relevant for anyone switching from Delta Sigma.

^^^Yes, Bill, this. The Metrum Acoustics Onyx (and I believe all their models) come stock with their DAC2 R2R modules, but they sell their DAC3 R2R modules as drop-in replacements. I upgraded last week to the DAC3 modules.

This is the only R2R DAC I've had, so not a lot of experience to draw upon. I could definitely tell a difference between the stock Onyx (with DAC2 modules) and my Benchmark DAC3 (Delta-Sigma), but the DAC3 modules have a slightly different sound. I haven't done another A/B comparison with the DAC3 modules compared to the Benchmark...and I doubt I will. It's kind of pain since my streamer has to be totally re-booted each time in order to recognize the different DACs.

In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have said the other night that the DAC3 modules sound closer to D-S without actually doing a brand-new comparison. I have read, though, how some folks prefer the DAC2 modules over the DAC3, so there's that.

billbillw · May 27

That's a bummer you can't switch DACs without rebooting the streamer. My Daphile box can stream to two or more DACs simultaneously so I can just change inputs on the preamp to compare them. It made it quite easy to pick out the difference in sound between DACs.

jdjohn · May 27

Yeah, my Innuous Zen Mk3 has to do a proper handshake with whatever DAC is connected, since the Zen only has USB output, and it requires a re-boot when a different DAC is connected. For my earlier comparison, I was using a Logitech SB Touch as the streamer, which allows for digital coax hot-swap...or, utilizing the Benchmark DAC digital passthrough into the Onyx.

I actually tried hot-swapping the USB cable between the Zen and the two DACs the first time around, and it did not work well at all. In fact, and I don't know if it was related, but the USB bus (or whatever) in my Benchmark DAC died on me, and I had to send it in for repair

heiney9 · May 27

Finally got her unboxed, USB driver downloaded and added to the Roon player. In the first 10 minutes, I already like what I hear. I am starting out using a solid state pre-amp for break in and for the first evaluation.

The one thing that stood out right away was the metallic sound of cymbals. It sounds "real" like when my buddy who is a drummer sounds when a cymbal is struck. There is also more space between everything in a recording. At this point I feel there is less bass.....but I imagine as it breaks in that will come around.

Right out of the box the first note sounds excellent. When this puppy gets broken in, it's going to be a real treat, I think.

These are first impressions and I reserve the right to contradict myself several times if necessary...

Couple of quick images

H9

heiney9 · May 27

I do have the USB output from the computer going into an iFi - iGalvonic 3.0 and then out to the Warmer R2R
dac.

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prnt-ifnigalv-sil?setCurrencyId=1&srsltid=AfmBOoo2518dxOZ9zeP8Ir8sv5frTw3SzdY1F0o5gQFF817v4druOReOnLk

I've been using this for a few years instead of the Uptone Audio USB Regen unit. I am using the Uptone Audio USB Regen in the main rig between the Roon Nucleus One and the EE dac supreme dac.

H9

heiney9 · May 28

I am also going to add one thing, it's surprising to me how forward sounding it is. I realize I've had almost no break-in time, but I'm just documenting what I am hearing.

I expected it to be a bit more laid back. When I say forward, it's bright, but not etched or harsh. Just on the edge of being a bit "shouty" (which I'm not used to). Lots of upper mid and high frequency energy. Clear, not fatiguing (so far) but very much "out front". I would not use the term "warm"-so far. I had to double check to make sure it was set to "NOS" non-oversampling.

My EE Dac Plus discrete op-amps have been reviewed as 300B tube-like smoothness, articulate but smooth. They were more tube-like than SS. I am using the same single channel op-amps in the Keces pre-amp.

Any way, too early to cast any kind of lasting impressions, still breaking in, etc. I'm sure the sound will evolve.

My plan for break-in and reviewing is to use the same solid state pre-amp first. Swap tubes in the R2R after break-in.

Then I'll use the other (3) tube pre-amps to see how they sound with the R2R. Swapping the other tubed pre-amps will muddy the waters because of all the different tubes in the mix.

This will be a long process and once I start reviewing I'll start a new thread just for the review discussion.

H9

Conradicles · May 28

Glad you like it so far H9. Nice set up!

heiney9 · May 29

Thanks....not too shabby for a semi-near field office rig.

H9

HzTweaker · June 2

@heiney9 Having checked the non-oversampling feature in the app, what is your opinion of it (the app) so far?

Also I'm looking forward to reading more of what you think about your dac.

So far I'd say our experiences are very similar. Which seems strange to me being that my unit (K13) does not have the tube stage in it.

heiney9 · June 2

HzTweaker wrote: »

@heiney9 Having checked the non-oversampling feature in the app, what is your opinion of it (the app) so far?

Also I'm looking forward to reading more of what you think about your dac.

So far I'd say our experiences are very similar. Which seems strange to me being that my unit (K13) does not have the tube stage in it.

My very first impressions are just that. Those were right out of the box, fresh and new. I still feel it's breaking in but I'm probably 80% there. During break in I've purposely avoided playing my "go to" demo tracks, waiting to use those for the evaluation.

Bass has filled in nicely and the shoutiness is gone. There is a sense of "ease" to the music I'm playing. Cymbals especially sound more natural and real. There is excellent separation of instruments (very 3D). One thing I say is different is there isn't much depth or width to the sound stage. I'm told rolling different tubes fixes this small issue.

That's where I am at the moment in my review. I've been letting it play running Qobuz when not listening. So, I have about 6-8 hours total listening time. About 30-40 hours breaking in running a music signal through the unit.

Smooth but still transparent with great instrument delineation is how I'd describe it at the moment. I don't feel the highs are rolled off at all at this point.

I'm not sure about the app question. There is a switch on my unit that allows to run NOS or OS. So far I've only run in NOS mode. This only affects USB use. Running in optical or coax only runs in NOS.

I've only used the Keces as pre-amp for the moment. I will be swapping it for the Shiit Valhalla 2 soon. The Keces HA-171 with (3) dexa new class D discrete op-amps (they do not run in Class D....lol) is an excellent match.

Also, until I swap tubes, I won't know how much of an effect they actually have. It's a delicate process so I won't be rolling too often. I will basically roll my 1961 Amperex BB (holland) 6DJ8's and 1975 Russian 6N23P's. Which ever one sounds best will be a "set it an forget" choice.

So far I am impressed, because the cost to enjoyment ratio is up there and moving up. I am really, really enjoying it. My Eastern Electric Dac Plus is no slouch

H9

P.S. I am starting to draw the conclusion I could live with this just the way it is. I did buy tubes specifically to roll, so I will. But for most, it might not be necessary. I just like tweaking stuff........

heiney9 · June 2

HzTweaker wrote: »

@heiney9 Having checked the non-oversampling feature in the app, what is your opinion of it (the app) so far?

The only "app" I have is the control panel to run the USB input, changing basic settings like buffering, ASIO functions, volume functions, current status

H9

HzTweaker · June 3

Thanks for the feedback!

I'm assuming you're using Fiio's "Fiio Control" app? Sounds like it's specific to what ever model you're running?
Also is there a bypass mode for the tube stage?

heiney9 · June 3

I am using "FiiO USB Audio Device Control", no other app was suggested or downloaded. It controls the USB inter-phase as well as provides information like buffer size, sample rate.

No option to bypass the tubes. There is a switch on the back which controls "NOS (non-oversampling) or OS" (over sampling) selection. It only functions while using the USB input. NOS is the only mode used for coax and optical.

H9

Geoff4rfc · June 3

heiney9 wrote: »

If all goes well in the office rig with the RTR, I'll be looking/researching/taking advice on an excellent RTR for the main rig. But that's a ways down the road, perhaps...........

H9

You might check out Denafrips. From what I see, it doesn't look like they carry any tube DACs however the one I have is pretty stinking awesome. The Venus is what I snagged a deal on, pricy but man, it has transformed my 2ch listening to an "experience" each time. I couldn't be happier with a blind buy as I am with this one.

My girlfriend's reaction is pretty sweet. She says that it's like "having my own personal concert". When she closes her eyes, she says she can see all the instruments right there in room with her. I have to agree with her.

Glad to hear you're enjoying yours!!!

heiney9 · June 7

A week in and about 20 hours various listening time and approximately 70-75 hours break-in. This piece was well worth the wait from paying in February to receiving a week ago. I can see why they are/were hard to keep in stock.

Best the R200's and my office rig has ever sounded. The sound stage is huge, the speakers disappear. There is such an easiness when playing music...effortless I guess. Very even handed and the instrument delineation is exceptional. Tones and textures are very much a part of the entire presentation.

I am doing a voltage regulator mod to the Keces, so I swapped in the Schiit Valhalla II w/late 60's Russian tubes. Listening to Buddy Guy and Junior Wells - Live in Montreux 1978. Other than the lower listening level, I'd swear they are in the room with me.

I have a pair of new in antistatic wrapper Dexa 15V discrete voltage regulators that should swap straight in for the monolithic I/C chips. I am looking for a couple of heatsinks to attach if I can't get the original to work. These are for the Keces HA-171 (not the R2R Warmer)

These have been in the parts drawer for quite awhile. These are the MK I version.

H9

Geoff4rfc · June 8

heiney9 wrote: »

Other than the lower listening level, "I'd swear they are in the room with me".

H9

That right there!!! The beauty of the DAC. It's a humble privilege to have this firsthand knowledge.

R2R dac vs. Delta Sigma type dac

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