R2R dac vs. Delta Sigma type dac

billbillw · January 23

Jody, R/2R DACs really all operate using the same precision decoding method without the use of noise shaping. I think there is really just a distinction between using discrete parts and using an IC chip or FPGA. I don't think we are throwing around absolutes. Clearly, there is always a huge variation in parts quality, circuit design, software implementation, analog output design, and the use of OS/NOS. I'm not sure if calling it an R2R ladder makes a difference in the discussion.
I know there are also similar issues when it comes to volume control. Many pre-amps/integrated amps advertise "resistive ladder" volume control, but the implementation can vary widely between discrete parts operating by relays, by hand (if it is wired directly to the attenuator), or it can be built into a volume control chip. There can be a huge difference in the quality of implementation.

heiney9 · January 23

The unit I bought uses 0.1% precision metal film resistors. Which is middle of the road for this type. Higher end units costing 4-5X the price use 0.01% metal film resistors. As billbillw stated, or they use I/C's.

Three other things appealed to me about this unit. 1) the fact that they use a strong linear power supply (not a wall wart) 2) the tube buffer. 3) FIIO has developed a strong reputation for quality, design and execution. I also like the option to over sample if I choose to.

This unit is supposed to be excellent for the price and should be more than enough for me to determine if I want to go down the rabbit hole and replace my main rig DAC with a higher end r2r type unit.

I admit, lately for convenience, I do a lot more listening on the office rig than the main rig. That's why I started with this unit. Plus who could pass up the retro-VU meters.

The 2nd review here really talks about the tech part as well as listening impressions. So far, reviews have been extremely positive, especially for its price point.

https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/fiio-warmer-r2r.28784/reviews

But as Phil noted, reviews aren't the same as getting your ears on it................so I am patiently waiting its arrival the first week of Feb.

H9

pitdogg2 · January 23

Not to mention, you get to shop for more tubes......

heiney9 · January 23

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Not to mention, you get to shop for more tubes......

Ha....I don't have any 6922/ECC88/E88CC/6N23P. Thankfully there isn't as large of "pool" of good ones as other designations. So, yeah.....another rabbit hole.

Looking at Russian tubes from the 70's......but they are pricey then add the taxes, fee's and tariff's we now pay on anything coming into the US and makes it impossible to get a decent deal.

Also Brimar E88CC gold pins. Found a source in the UK, again all the tariffs, poor exchange rate and other shipping/receiving fee's makes it impossible to get a decent deal.

Few dealers sell the Russian 6N23P stateside. When they do they are $200-300 quad. No one seems to sell the Brimar E88CC gold pins. I'm used to the old days when you could scour several sources and find some bargains if you were vigilant enough. Today the asking prices for some tubes is insane and people won't accept a reasonable offer.

I just went down the rabbit hole for 6SN7's/5692 for the Schiit Lyr 3 pre amp it have. I bought the top 7 varieties and spent $400!!! on singles.

As far the FIIO Warmer r2r, a good quad of older NOS Russian Reflektor 6N23P's and a quad of NOS Brimar E88CC gold pins and that's it. This isn't going to be a unit with heavy tube rolling. Plus the above sets will be NOS, so should last along time. I choose these because overall the pricing is good as is the performance. I'm sure the best Amperex's are excellent, but I'm not paying $600-800 a quad.

H9

heiney9 · January 23

https://www.thetubestore.com/6h23n-eb-6922

These look to be from the late 80's hard to tell the date. I believe it shows 8911. 11th month of 1989. The 70's versions are supposed to sound better...........but really not sure if that's true.

https://vivatubes.com/true-nos-nib-matched-quad-6n23p-ev-soviet-russia-6922-6dj8-mil-spec-vacuum-tubes/

Made by PANO, no year specified. I have a 1968 PANO 6H8C (6sn7 equivalent) and it's one of my (2) favorite 6SN7 types. I believe PANO is an older Russian tube manufacturer. It's been hard to find solid info. But the 6H8C is excellent.

https://www.langrex.co.uk/products/e88cc-brimar-uk-gold-pin-nos-valve-tube-lc96/

Tube Depot has a single tube of Brimar E88CC, no back orders or restock

H9

woofiepaws · January 23

PANO is Reflektor. The Reflektor logo is on the box shown by VivaTubes.

heiney9 · January 23

woofiepaws wrote: »

PANO is Reflektor. The Reflektor logo is on the box shown by VivaTubes.

I was thinking that....thanks for confirming. I am going to email them to see if I can nail down a year of production.

Ironically these get great reviews, but reading Brent Jesse's sight (which could be dated info) he says the Rocket Logo (Voshod if IRRC) are the best and rival the best even the 7308's.

I have limited experience with Russian signal tubes. I have one integrated amp that uses a 6AQ8/ECC85 and you can sub the Russian 6N1P-EV. I have several from different Russian tube makers and they all sound fantastic. Voshod, Novisbursk, Kaluga, Nevz

I have (4) quads of the original SED =C= 6L6GC from St. Petersburg. They are as good or better than the RCA 6L6's, IMO.

So, for me NOS Russian tubes have a great track record.

H9

pitdogg2 · January 23

Seems like the "best" Russian tubes came from factories that made tubes for the ICBM's or military. Voshod, Novisbursk were two I'm familiar with.
There's also the OTK designation that seems to mean something.

heiney9 · January 23

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Seems like the "best" Russian tubes came from factories that made tubes for the ICBM's or military. Voshod, Novisbursk were two I'm familiar with.
There's also the OTK designation that seems to mean something.

Yes, BAT gear used/uses tubes that powered Russian MIG electronics 6C33C and 6H30.

OTK is an extra stamp of ruggedness

treitz3 · January 23

displayname wrote: »

The Musical Paradise flagship tube dac always sounded fantastic, I’d love to hear their latest version with upgrades.

Now, I'll agree with that. I heard one of those units down at LSAF years ago that rocked my world. It was featured on the system by the Black Hole boys on a rather unique pair of triangle shaped speakers. Very nice sound. Not quite sure what model it was, but it left a lasting impression!

Trey bought one (not sure what model) and he wasn't too enamored with it....but if memory serves, he didn't spend too much for it, so it may have been a lower line model.

VR3 wrote: »

Abbas is all R2R fwiw (and sound ridiculously good)

Ah, I didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification. It could explain why I like them though.

halen wrote: »

Tom

Curious. Have you tried the Audio Note R2R on other setups?

Not really. I did hear them both on other systems before purchasing them both though. One was in Trey's system (@VR3) and the other was in Rick's system (@rceagan). Rick was the one who brought his over to hear in my system and that was (within seconds) the time where after about 2 or 3 seconds that I (rather loudly) exclaimed "WOW!".

Both of those exact DAC's currently reside in my rig, both with different tubes.

halen wrote: »

I remember praising the R2R on the Lamp DACs some time ago. I believe the newer iterations all use Delta Sigma now.

Are you referring to Lampizator? I had one. Level 4 gen 5 or level 5 gen 4....something like that. It was okay. Apparently the very limited Lampizator Aphrodite DAC is to die for. I haven't heard it yet, but I know someone who has one (somewhat) local to my area and will get my ears on it later this winter or early spring. As far as what they use? I honestly have no idea. After my experience with the one I had, I kind of lost interest in the Lampi's. Maybe the Aphrodite will re-spark my interest but it will have to beat the Aries Cerat Kassandra....and then again? Even if it does, it is a limited edition and finding one may prove to be fruitless. Then again, at that price point? They are priced out of my market. Still want to hear it though!

Tom

Geoff4rfc · January 23

I've not owned any external DAC's as of yet but slated to get my hands on a Denafrips Pontus 15th R2R. I'm looking forward to the experience.

VR3 · 2:09AM

The musical paradise dac I had sounded good... It just didn't sound anything at all like tubes and I was looking for the tube flavor. It sounded very similar to my hot prodded musical fidelity tri Vista dac which also didn't sound like tubes

treitz3 · 4:15AM

I know it's been a while, but do you recall what version you had of the MP DAC?

Tom

Gardenstater · 5:31AM

The Denafrips Enyo 15th blew away my iFi Nano iDSD, with high level details with my signature test bed Crime Of The Century 192kHz. My buddy took it back home with him and then it wouldn't power up for him. I guess it must've wanted to stay here. That would've been just fine with me lol.

R2R dac vs. Delta Sigma type dac

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