Legend L800, no SDA

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nooshinjohn
nooshinjohn Posts: 25,124
in Troubleshooting
This afternoon, it was discovered that my Legend L800's are not producing the SDA signal from either speaker SDA array. Troubleshooting thus far has involved replacing BOTH crossovers, replacing the SDA cable, testing the drivers with and OHM meter. Both arrays give me one driver reading of 7.5ohm(tweeters???) and 3.6ohm(midwoofers???) At this time, I am at a loss as to what to do next.

I will be reaching out to Polk tomorrow but that is a crapshoot at best. I have tweeters that I was going to use on my L600 build, but the condition they arrived in looks like they were stepped on and kicked a couple times before they got put in the box, and the mid drivers have not gotten here yet. I suppose I could flip the mids from one side to the other and see what happens.

Troubleshooting these new ones are not at all like the old ones. Good news is they still sound pretty damn good even without the arrays working for the time being. Any help you can provide will be most appreciated.
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,100
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    Speaker trouble shooting 101, need to remove an possible variables

    Plug it up to a whole other system

    This is why I keep a cheap 40 dollar Bluetooth integrated on hand.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,124
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    Tried a different amp as well… no luck
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,100
    edited April 1
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    Need to remove it all

    All cables all gear

    Need a whole new setup to hook it to

    Order a fosi Bluetooth integrated it's like 50 bucks and cheap lamp cord speaker wire
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,124
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    VR3 wrote: »
    Speaker trouble shooting 101, need to remove an possible variables

    Plug it up to a whole other system

    This is why I keep a cheap 40 dollar Bluetooth integrated on hand.

    Speakers work as normal speakers, just no SDA from either array… the only cable responsible has been swapped. The amps are not an issue as these speakers work with mono blocks just fine… nothing in the preamp or DAC can cause this, so what else is there?
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,100
    edited April 2
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    Speakers are very simple.

    The chances of it being an issue with your speakers is 1%, imo
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • SeleniumFalcon
    SeleniumFalcon Posts: 3,518
    edited April 2
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    If it were me I would take a speaker, any speaker, and connect it to the positive right and positive left amplifier outputs, play something recorded in stereo and see if there is any difference information being produced. If not, then there's a problem "upstream" if there is sound then it's a problem "downstream". I would then repeat the process with the test speaker connected to the two negative amplifier outputs.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,092
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    Did you replace your newest piece the tube McIntosh? Have you swapped cables, tubes, etc. Checked to make sure any speaker jumpers are secure, etc.

    I agree with Trey, it's probably not the speakers, but check everything in the chain it might turn out to be something that's unexpected. Don't make any assumptions, check everything!

    Good luck

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,085
    edited April 2
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    Couple of very good tips above from @SeleniumFalcon and @heiney9.
    Since I love to jump to conclusions :blush:
    1) a polarity issue with the signal from one channel vs. the other is an obvious potential culprit.
    2) given that this issue "was discovered" (and, strictly out of academic curiosity, why the passive voice, by the way? Did someone else discover it, @nooshinjohn or did you?) rather suddenly and recently (it seems), does it correlate with the new component in your system?
    2) is an easy and obvious place to start
    1) isn't so hard if you have a tool like a "Cricket"* -- which is a danged handy gizmo to have in the toolbag for its extremely modest cost.
    Lots of wires; lots of components - lots of places for opportunity for things to get crossed up.
    We also may be in a trust but verify situation. As a not entirely random example: One XLR cable that's miswired (if you have any balanced interconnections? I am guessing you may) could be responsible... and the wiring of XLR cables was/is a bit of a moving target for a long, long time. :o There was no standard! Well, actually, there were two standards; one inverted relative to the other. Again -- boy howdy, can a Cricket help ferret out a polarity inversion pretty much anywhere in the chain! It is in fact purpose-built to identify polarity inversion in cables as well as in speaker/drivers. A hunnert bucks (OK, a hunnert-twenny). Invaluable, I'm tellin' ya.

    PS I love troubleshooting! I am not particularly good at it, but it rewards all of my dopamine receptors or whatever, so I am keenly interested in this (even though I likely won't understand the minutiae of this particular system)!
    _____________
    * https://galaxyaudio.com/products/cpts/
    r96qu57f5hnz.jpg
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,085
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    actually, all of the replies so far* offer excellent comments, points, and suggestions.
    _____________
    * I mean... well... we'll see about mine. :blush::# All of the other ones do, though! B)
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  • invalid
    invalid Posts: 1,291
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    The standard for XLR or balanced connection is AES 48, pin 2 is positive or non inverting pin 3 is negative or inverting and pin 1 is ground
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  • Viking64
    Viking64 Posts: 6,701
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    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    isn't so hard if you have a tool like a "Cricket"*

    :o
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,124
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    I have managed to figure out the right channel, and it is now working as it should. The left channel however has no SDA output. Swapped SDA cable again and same result.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,085
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    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    I have managed to figure out the right channel, and it is now working as it should. The left channel however has no SDA output. Swapped SDA cable again and same result.

    So... either it is the loudspeaker itself or upstream of it.
    Seems like a divide and conquer approach is called for (from my perspective):
    Have you concocted the simplest possible system to test that? I.e., source -> amp -> speakers. NOTHING ELSE. Use a source that you can attenuate without a preamp if at all possible (e.g., a CDP with an output level control of some sort). Use "agnostic" cables if at all possible (i.e., NOT ANY of the ones that are in regular use, if at all possible).
    Is there one SDA cable or one per speaker (excuse my ignorance, please!)? In other words, are you SURE the problem's not with the SDA cable (or one of the SDA cables? I am hazy on this bit of information -- but it's probably just me. :blush:
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,085
    edited April 2
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    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    I have managed to figure out the right channel, and it is now working as it should. The left channel however has no SDA output. Swapped SDA cable again and same result.

    I'll readily admit to being a little slow on the ol' uptake, so bear with me here.
    You say "The left channel however has no SDA output." Does this mean the "Left speaker" or "the left channel of the system"?

    If the former, if you hook the "Left speaker" to the "right channel of the system", what happens? I realize this may require mirror-imaging some part of the system (as close to the speakers as possible), but I am (still) under the impression we (you) need to know that the "no SDA output" is unique to the loudspeaker or tothe signal feeding it.

    And, again, my apologies if I am just not understanding something.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,100
    edited April 2
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    The L800 comes with two sda cables that connect together if you need the length but you can use one or two
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,085
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    ahh, I see...
    So, still, either the speaker or the "feed" from upstream.
    SDA cable(s) is/are exonerated.

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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,124
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    @mhardy6647

    It means that all drivers in the right channel are working as designed. The left channel
    , as views from the listening position works properly as a stereo speaker, but the outboard array which is used for SDA do not work at all. This is regardless of source, cables, preamp being used or any other factors. I have pretty much eliminated everything except the tweeter/midwoofer in the SDA array. Those drivers did test within spec with an ohm meter, so that tells me they are connected to the wiring and not shorted, so they should be working if they are getting a signal.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,085
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    Interesting.
    Sounds like crossover componentry, then, I guess. Or internal wiring.
    Did they ever work? I assume they did but, you know -- trust but verify.
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  • Gardenstater
    Gardenstater Posts: 4,197
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    Sigh....am I the only one who is curious how the right speaker got "figured out" and is now working?
    George / NJ

    Polk 7B main speakers, std. mods+ (1979, orig owner)
    Martin Logan Dynamo sub w/6ft 14awg Power Cord
    Crown D150 amp
    Logitech Squeezebox Touch Streamer w/EDO applet
    iFi nano iDSD DAC
    iPurifier3
    iDefender w/ iPower PS
    Custom Steve Wilson 1m UPOCC Interconnect
    iFi Mercury 0.5m OFHC continuous cast copper USB cable
    Custom Ribbon Speaker Cables, 5ft long, 4N Copper, 14awg, ultra low inductance
    Custom Vibration Isolation Speaker Stands and Sub Platform
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,100
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    None of it makes any sense so far
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,085
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    VR3 wrote: »
    None of it makes any sense so far

    I think we're missing some key clues.

    Col. Mustard
    In the parlor
    With a candelabra

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  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,620
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    Have you tried contacting Polk customer support at 800-377-7655?
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,848
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    April 1
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,124
    edited April 3
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    Clipdat wrote: »
    Have you tried contacting Polk customer support at 800-377-7655?

    Have a chain of emails going with them now, but what I really need is a live person.

    F1nut wrote: »
    April 1

    Wish it was that simple. Doug was up here listening to the rig as he was picking up his tube amps. He is the one that heard it. I listen to a lot of simple music that does not have much SDA going on, just vocals and a guitar or two. He picked up on it right away when he started playing with his music.

    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,124
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    More weirdness... I power up BOTH amplifiers... When I turn off the right-channel amp, the right channel stereo array shuts down, leaving only the SDA array working, which is fed by the left channel amp. This is as it should be. When I shut down the left channel amp, the left stereo pair continue to function, being fed by the right channel amp. This tells me that there is a crossover issue, but why now I have no clue. the only thing I surmise is that when I swapped crossovers, something went wrong.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,085
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    Swapped crossovers?
    Say more.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,124
    edited April 3
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    I did swap crossovers. the funny thing is that the four crossovers I have all have the same identical part number. I thought they were supposed to be different from left to right. I am putting the original XO back now and will check back later...
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,377
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    Does one of the L800 crossovers look like this in real life, and are they the same left/right? :D

    peh2ffhexwk4.jpg
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,124
    edited April 3
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    That is correct @Emlyn ... All is working now and I can only assume working as intended. One of the Molex connectors worked it's way loose on the left channel, but I learned something today about the way these speakers work which I find rather stunning, and it explains a lot about why some find them to be phasey, if that is the correct term. During troubleshooting I found that when the right amplifier is shut off, all drivers in the left AND right speaker continue to play. The reverse is also true when the left amp is shut down, ALL drivers continue to play in BOTH speakers! I remember old-school SDA, when you shut down the left amp, information from the right channel only went to the left SDA drivers...

    Seems odd to me that all drivers in the left continue to function when the left amp is shut off... and vise-versa. Maybe someone with L800's and monoblocks can shut an amp off and give a listen and confirm what I have found.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,085
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    Glad it's sorted out @nooshinjohn!
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