Cambridge Audio Azur 851N in the house!

2»

Comments

  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    So I wanted to do an update on this. Yesterday I hooked up my pre to the 851N via new Monoprice XLR's and noticed a decrease in overall sound quality. I don't know if it was caused by the B&K or the CA. Thoughts? All contacts were cleaned with deoxit by the way so I know it's not dirty contacts.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • ThomasD
    ThomasD Posts: 260
    Robert,
    Been following this thread because I've also got the 851N and have really enjoyed it for the past year or so. Have only used it as a digital source with either my C1 or C2 Pre's through the M1.0t that came from you or my other M200t or M4.0t. I've noted nothing but stellar sound, including running an older Cambridge 351C through it. Do you still feel there's a decrease in SQ with your B&K?
    Carver M4.0t, M1.0t, M200t, TX2, C1, C2, Marantz 2230, 2010, 4070, 1030, APPJ 2013, Rega Brio, Marantz Imperial 7's, Klipsch Heresy III, Quartets, KG4's, KG1's, 'The Sixes', R-12SW, Polk SDA 2a's, Monitor 7cTL's, SDA CRS's, 4a's, Zu Audio Dirty Weekends, Pro-ject Acryl TT, Cambridge 851N, 351C, Panamax 5300PM
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    edited March 2019
    Just using XLR's between the B&K and the CA. When using RCA IC's between the two it sounds awesome!
    DSkip wrote: »
    Regardless of what people say, there is still a difference in XLR cables and the quality they bring to the table.

    Skip, I'm sure you're right. I am suspecting the B&K could be the issue but don't know as I don't have an extra pair of XLR's or a different pre with XLR outs to swap out and troubleshoot.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,560
    Clear as molasses there Skip.
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    I think what he's trying to say is with same brand/model cables there should be in increase in sound quality using the XLR's over the RCA's. With that said (I think?) I WAS comparing Monoprice XLR's and Monoprice IC's. The cables are different because one says it's shielded. So either the new XLR's are bad or???
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,560
    audioluvr wrote: »
    I think what he's trying to say is with same brand/model cables there should be in increase in sound quality using the XLR's over the RCA's. With that said (I think?) I WAS comparing Monoprice XLR's and Monoprice IC's. The cables are different because one says it's shielded. So either the new XLR's are bad or???

    Try the new ones in place of the old ones for your pre to amp run, see if you notice anything detrimental.
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    My new ones are 0.5m long which is too short. I took them apart (because that's what guys do...) to see if they terminated them poorly or something and they look really good. And since both channels were equally bad I'm suspecting an issue with my B&K. I wouldn't think I'd have an issue with the CA since it's new. In the mean time I'm enjoying the sound via the RCA IC cables. I guess my next big purchase will eventually be a new pre. I missed out on a Cary SLP 03 because I spent all my money on a new vanity and granite countertop for my MBA. Oh well.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,560
    edited March 2019
    Try a different XLR input on the B&K or check to see if there's some software programming in there that could be applying something to that particular XLR input. I'm not an expert with the B&K units and their inner workings.
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    Clipdat wrote: »
    Try a different XLR input on the B&K

    Good idea. I'll try that.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    edited March 2019
    Ya there is definately something hinky going on here. I have the RCA's going to the DVD input and the XLR's going to the CD input (I tried both) on the B&K with two different presets using the same volume output. Surprisingly there is no gain with the XLR's. Playing The Beatles' "Here comes the sun" on Tidal. Using the XLR's, the first thing I notice is a harshness to the highs and an overall loss of imaging detail. With the RCA interconnects I can immediately pinpoint the location of Paul and John and every instrument in a 3 dimensional array. The XLR's sound good but there is not that "Oh crap! I'm in the front row!" realism that I'm getting with the IC's

    Overall it's hard to believe that my system could get any better right now. Though I say that everytime I upgrade something. Really digging this 851N!
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,560
    edited March 2019
    audioluvr wrote: »
    B&K with two different presets using the same volume output.

    I still think there's something going on inside the B&K inadvertently affecting things.

    This might not be a popular or shared opinion but I think that a B&K Pre/Pro like that is crappy, from the standpoint of doing serious/critical listening. The fact that it has accommodation for video signals, as well as all the internal processing circuitry means that for serious 2 channel purist stereo listening, it is an inherently flawed product.

    Nothing personal against you or your setup, it's just my opinion.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    Don't sell it short just because it's a pre/pro. Many of the HT pre/pros are quite good for 2 channel. Anthem, Classe and Cary also come to mind.

    Sure, they won't be as good as a dedicated separates system of good quality, especially with tubes in the mix, but they can be very satisfying for 2 channel in their own right.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    Clipdat wrote: »
    audioluvr wrote: »
    B&K with two different presets using the same volume output.

    I still think there's something going on inside the B&K inadvertently affecting things.

    This might not be a popular or shared opinion but I think that a B&K Pre/Pro like that is crappy, from the standpoint of doing serious/critical listening. The fact that it has accommodation for video signals, as well as all the internal processing circuitry means that for serious 2 channel purist stereo listening, it is an inherently flawed product.

    Nothing personal against you or your setup, it's just my opinion.

    Duly noted. This pre/pro was picked up for $100. It was a noticeable upgrade from the Carver C-1 I had which was in dire need of a refresh and it had no remote... I respect everyone's opinion here otherwise I wouldn't hang out! Aside from all the extra crap inside that I don't use, I feel that it does a pretty good job of sound reproduction. My eventual goal though is to pick up a modern (ish) pre with a remote (because I'm a couch potato) like the Cary SLP 03.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    In my system, using the CXN, going from AQ IC’s to a similarly priced XLR from the same brand produced not only a gain, but a slight increase in stage width. Not much more than that. But enough to warrant me keeping them.
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    So I had an epiphany last night while waiting for delivery of my new Wireworld Silver Eclipse XLR cables that I could test my XLR issue by running interconnects from the 851N directly to the amps. Using it as a preamp that way I could compare it to see if my XLR issue was that and not my cables or the B&K. Low and behold the warm, rich clarity with excellent imaging I observed using the B&K as a pre was also present in this configuration. Doing an A/B comparison showed almost identical results with the B&K possibly showing very slightly more low frequency response. Definitely something going on with the XLR outputs on the CA. Another thing I noticed when using the CA as a pre with XLR's was the gain was so much that volume 8 (1 is the lowest setting) was equivalent in SPL's to volume 26 using IC outputs.

    I will need to contact CA and see what they think I should do. May need to send it in.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • Clipdat
    Clipdat Posts: 12,560
    So what exactly did you test, and what were your conclusions/results? I'm sorry, but I don't follow your post.
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    How do you know it isn't the XLR cables in that experiment ? Were you using analog cables when hooking up the CA to the amp ?
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • joecoulson
    joecoulson Posts: 4,943
    Yeah I have to concur, doesn’t really make sense. Not saying CA is infallible, just unlikely the cause.
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    So this is what I did I got a cheap decibel meter so I could compare different configurations at similar volumes and I basically played the same one or two test tracks that I like to use for testing purposes.

    * When I hook up the 851N XLR outs to the amps XLR's inputs and using the 851N as a pre this causes a huge increase in gain and overbrightness in treble. With this configuration at volume #8 (1 being the lowest) I'm at about 80 decibels and there is a large jump from 8 to 9.

    * When I hook up the 851N RCA outs to the amps RCA inputs it sounds good but a little bright with weaker low frequencies and the volume is set at 26 at 80 decibels.

    * When I hook up the 851N XLR outs to the preamp XLR inputs and the preamp XLR outs to the amps XLR inputs I get a nominal gain (controlled by the preamps volume of course) and it's terribly bright.

    * When I hook up the 851N RCA outs to the preamp RCA inputs and the preamp XLR outputs to the amp XLR inputs I get similar gain as the XLR's but the sound is rich, clear, deep with superb soundstage and imaging.

    I'm using the same XLR's / RCA's from amp upstream to whichever I'm using as a pre.

    I'm using the same brand and type XLR / RCA's from the CA to the B&K. Just can't imagine that there would be such a huge difference in sound and gain due to cables.

    I never tested RCA's between the B&K pre and amps because it sounds great with XLR's
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    * When I hook up the 851N RCA outs to the preamp RCA inputs and the preamp XLR outputs to the amp XLR inputs I get similar gain as the XLR's but the sound is rich, clear, deep with superb soundstage and imaging.
    *
    If your getting just about the same gain using the RCA outputs on the 851, then it can't be the 851.

    What your hearing is the increase in gain from the XLR's from pre to amp. When using the 851 as a pre, your also using it's digital volume control, which can be a bit noisy and bright on some of these streamers.

    Could just be a whacky impedance thing between the pieces and cables. Use whatever combo gives you the best sound. Also remember, because a piece has XLR inputs or outputs, doesn't mean it's a fully balanced one. My guess is one of those pieces may not be.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    tonyb wrote: »
    What your hearing is the increase in gain from the XLR's from pre to amp. When using the 851 as a pre, your also using it's digital volume control, which can be a bit noisy and bright on some of these streamers.

    Could just be a whacky impedance thing between the pieces and cables. Use whatever combo gives you the best sound. Also remember, because a piece has XLR inputs or outputs, doesn't mean it's a fully balanced one. My guess is one of those pieces may not be.

    Thanks Tony, That's what I'm doing. Was an exercise in futility at best.
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • gyosa
    gyosa Posts: 675
    edited November 2019
    Old thread , but here goes anyways .....
    The 851n and 851d are identical with the exception of the N having streaming abilities.....

    Here’s some measurements....
    Long read , but interesting, none the less ...
    The volume control is excellent ....
    The unit as a whole is excellent ....

    Audioluvr , what did you do to solve the problem you were having ?


    http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?43193-Cambridge-Audio-851D-excels-at-quot-budget-quot-price-point

    Bk


    Post edited by gyosa on
    Parasound A21 , Yamaha wxc-50 , Polk SDA 1c’s ( my first love .. ) , Kimber Kable 4TC, Sony 42” - BEDROOM

    B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Yamaha wxc-50 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL

    PS Audio Stellar S300 , Eversolo DMP-A8 , Yamaha wxc-50 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Salk Supercharged Song towers ( difficult choice between these and my family if I had to choose ... 😩 ) , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED - DEN , MAIN RIG

    Cambridge Audio 851n - sitting in the closet , for now

    Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sharp 65” TV - PATIO

    DAYENS AMPINO ( thanks Verb ! ) , KEiiD streamer ( this was only 60 bucks ?? ) , Polk atrium 8SDi’s - KID’s BEDROOM
  • audioluvr wrote: »
    Just picked up this pre off CL for $800! Just over a year old. The guy told me his wife made him get rid ALL of his stereo stuff. Poor idiot... This thing sounds amazing! Considering my next newest component is over 20 years old... Right now I have my laptop hooked to it via Bluetooth. Thanks all for helping me spend my money!

    uhpnoa1prcka.jpeg
    6hul2era8xg8.jpeg
    5zgrin633d4q.jpg

    For sure, a nice piece (851N) Now, if only same could be said for those hi-fi racks !

    pj
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    edited December 2019
    Ha! Table trays. Was using them to try to figure out if I wanted my amps positioned that way or in my rack. I wasn't able to look out the windows that way so I custom built my rack spacing / cooling system for symmetry.


    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus
  • gyosa
    gyosa Posts: 675
    edited December 2019
    Looks like a B&K amp ?

    Bk

    Edit - never mind ... I saw original post ... sonata mono blocks .... nice !
    Parasound A21 , Yamaha wxc-50 , Polk SDA 1c’s ( my first love .. ) , Kimber Kable 4TC, Sony 42” - BEDROOM

    B&K EX-442 ( it will go in my casket when I die ... ) , PS Audio 4.6 preamp ( old school , but it still jams on ... ) , Yamaha wxc-50 , Boston Acoustic voyager 7’s - POOL

    PS Audio Stellar S300 , Eversolo DMP-A8 , Yamaha wxc-50 , Kimber Kable 4vs , Salk Supercharged Song towers ( difficult choice between these and my family if I had to choose ... 😩 ) , Sony XBR-A8F 65” OLED - DEN , MAIN RIG

    Cambridge Audio 851n - sitting in the closet , for now

    Onkyo TX-nr609 , Polk atrium 7 , Boston acoustic sound ware (4) , Boston acoustic sub , B&W center , Sharp 65” TV - PATIO

    DAYENS AMPINO ( thanks Verb ! ) , KEiiD streamer ( this was only 60 bucks ?? ) , Polk atrium 8SDi’s - KID’s BEDROOM
  • audioluvr
    audioluvr Posts: 5,420
    Yes. M200 Sonata's
    Gustard X26 Pro DAC
    Belles 21A Pre modded with Mundorf Supreme caps
    B&K M200 Sonata monoblocks refreshed and upgraded
    Polk SDA 1C's modded / 1000Va Dreadnaught
    Wireworld Silver Eclipse IC's and speaker cables
    Harman Kardon T65C w/Grado Gold. (Don't laugh. It sounds great!)


    There is about a 5% genetic difference between apes and men …but that difference is the difference between throwing your own poo when you are annoyed …and Einstein, Shakespeare and Miss January. by Dr. Sardonicus