Old (Vintage) vs New Turntables..

halohalo Posts: 5,259
Really interesting take on the old (vintage) vs new production turntable question-as to which is better-and some startling comments on "turntable sound" by the author/host.

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Comments

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,456
    It is an interesting topic, for sure.
    Not sure if I have the gumption to watch a video on the subject :p but that won't stop me from pontificating on it. :#

    There were some amazing turntables built in the olden days -- the Fairchild 750 fairly leaps to mind. But there were lots of mediocre ones built, too.

    One nice thing about new production turntables is that they haven't been subjected to years of wear and tear on the moving parts.

    There are certainly some nice tts and arms being made and sold today -- the good ones tend not to be inexpensive (just as always!) and there's certainly some junk being pawned off as audiophile.

    I think the worst thing, though, are the passionately dogmatic proponents of the two camps. Almost every tt discussion (new or old, truth be told) on many forums ends up as a urinating contest; more than occasionally, folks' mean-spirited antics end up getting many such threads (on some forums, e.g., AK) locked :/



  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 7,191
    As long as you know what you are getting yourself into with the old stuff.... :)

    There are new parts being made for the table I chose, the Lenco idler. I purchased a larger stainless main bearing with tighter tolerances. Recommendation for lube is turbine oil. New idler wheels are available so you don't have to attempt to soften the old rubber ones.

    I had my DIY Lenco measured by an old timer that repaired old radios and such. He had an old wow and flutter meter. Speed was .04%, WOW was .05%. That electronic drive with tach control I installed sure helped. Was his meter accurate? I dunno, but results spinning vinyl are very, very, good.

    With the electronic control, I get 33/45 speed at touch of a button. The idler drive wheel stays fixed in position. Worn linkage on a Lenco will cause speed differences when switching between speeds as the idler wheel position will vary slightly on the tapered motor shaft.

    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *

  • dromundsdromunds Posts: 8,335
    I wish the new ones were automatic, seems like they’re all manual which is ok but I like auto too even just semi-auto would be nice. There may be a few auto or semi-auto but not many you wouldn’t think it would be that hard it’s been around for over 50 years
  • corticocortico Posts: 589
    I have a fully automatic Pioneer PL-530, direct drive for quite while now, was produce in the late 70’s, I think. It has been pretty reliable considering the age... and plays almost everyday.

    I love the looks and works faultlessly mechanically and sound decent with a shure cartridge, now I remember that I also replaced the wiring harness.

    If it breaks, I would probably fix it instead of buying new. Anything I can afford looks plastic-ish... not sure I like the looks of the more expensive one either...
  • F1nutF1nut Posts: 42,966
    dromunds wrote: »
    I wish the new ones were automatic, seems like they’re all manual which is ok but I like auto too even just semi-auto would be nice. There may be a few auto or semi-auto but not many you wouldn’t think it would be that hard it’s been around for over 50 years

    Tru-lift automatic tonearm lifters. Worth every penny, IMO.

    https://www.integrityhifi.ca/tru-lift
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,456
    dromunds wrote: »
    I wish the new ones were automatic, seems like they’re all manual which is ok but I like auto too even just semi-auto would be nice. There may be a few auto or semi-auto but not many you wouldn’t think it would be that hard it’s been around for over 50 years

    You wouldn't like my Sony, which lacks even cueing. I have to go easy on the caffeine when I want to listen to rekkids. :)

    35863954672_f7f79f244a_b.jpgDSC_8876 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 21,501
    F1nut wrote: »
    dromunds wrote: »
    I wish the new ones were automatic, seems like they’re all manual which is ok but I like auto too even just semi-auto would be nice. There may be a few auto or semi-auto but not many you wouldn’t think it would be that hard it’s been around for over 50 years

    Tru-lift automatic tonearm lifters. Worth every penny, IMO.

    https://www.integrityhifi.ca/tru-lift

    Jesse offering turntable advice... what a crazy world we live in.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Goldfinger Diamond v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 three chassis preamp, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-LX701, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds.

    Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.

    “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
  • indyhawgindyhawg Posts: 1,341
    Very interesting video. Thanks for sharing.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,456
    F1nut wrote: »
    dromunds wrote: »
    I wish the new ones were automatic, seems like they’re all manual which is ok but I like auto too even just semi-auto would be nice. There may be a few auto or semi-auto but not many you wouldn’t think it would be that hard it’s been around for over 50 years

    Tru-lift automatic tonearm lifters. Worth every penny, IMO.

    https://www.integrityhifi.ca/tru-lift

    Jesse offering turntable advice... what a crazy world we live in.

    Signs of the End Times. I read about this in Revelations.

    ;)
  • halohalo Posts: 5,259
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    dromunds wrote: »
    I wish the new ones were automatic, seems like they’re all manual which is ok but I like auto too even just semi-auto would be nice. There may be a few auto or semi-auto but not many you wouldn’t think it would be that hard it’s been around for over 50 years

    Tru-lift automatic tonearm lifters. Worth every penny, IMO.

    https://www.integrityhifi.ca/tru-lift

    Jesse offering turntable advice... what a crazy world we live in.

    Signs of the End Times. I read about this in Revelations.

    ;)

    I don’t recall there being any vampires in the book of Revelations :p
  • nooshinjohnnooshinjohn Posts: 21,501
    Last chapter of the Audio Bible....
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, TriangleArt Reference SE with Pass Labs Xono Phono Preamp, Walker Precision Motor Drive, ClearAudio Goldfinger Diamond v2 cartridge and Origin Conquerer Mk3c tonearm, Polk Audio "Signature" Reference Series 1.2TL with complete mods, Pass Labs X0.2 three chassis preamp, PS Audio PerfectWave DAC MkII, Pioneer Elite SC-LX701, Oppo UDP-205 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk audio AB700/800 "in-wall" surrounds.

    Saying that it's "too hard" to pursue your dreams is no different than admitting to yourself that you are too lazy to achieve them.

    “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
  • JstasJstas Posts: 13,825
    I dunno, turntables are like shopping for classic cars.

    There's lotsa stuff out there that looks pretty on the outside. Makes you want to buy it. Like, how bad could it be? It's in good shape! But just like lookin' at strippers on stage, they look nice, yeah, but there's a ton of problems underneath that you won't be able to fully realize until you take it for a spin. So, ya know, look hard and be skeptical.

    But sometimes, there's a cherry of a gem, in rough shape or not, it's still a cherry. It can be hard to find those gems, sometimes, because you have a ton of bull to wade through.

    Like, try shopping for a used turntable from the 70's without knowing exactly what you are looking for. You will find junk collector after junk collector peddling bottom feeding turntables from RCA or way low-end Pioneer or something and claiming they are a unique and "rare" unit while being listed with 40 more of those "rare" units from 30 other sellers right next to each other.

    It's just like cars. Want something from the 50's? ZOMG! All those tri-five Chevies everywhere that everyone seems to think are the greatest gift to the automotive world! But if you want a Ford Fairlane Crown Victoria Skyliner from the same year stretch, it's like a needle in a haystack 'cause every knuckle dragging, single-minded, mouth-breather out there has a hard on for the Chevy which is pretty much an economy car comparatively. It's like looking for an Acura Integra or TSX and being inundated with Honda Civic ads.

    I mean, most of audio is the same way but it's pretty easy to find the junk and ignore it. Turntables are a different story. Comparing a '56 Chevy Bel Air to '56 Ford Fairlane CV Skyliner is apples to oranges. They aren't in the same class despite being the same class of car. But you can find a Chevy with a Maaco paint job that looks beautiful and it's gonna have hidden problems because nobody wants to put the time into actually restoring a Tri-5 because it's a cash cow that separates a fool and his money in copious amounts so profit margins are far more of a concern than **** the new owner over.

    But, a Fairlane CV Skyliner in any conduction can command some dollars so there's no reason to put any effort into a restorable hulk that you're just trying to move. Someone is looking for that and doesn't have to be enticed with pig lipstick to throw down cash for it. That shopper knows what they are looking for and you can't hide the pig under lipstick. They will see the pig because they will lift it's skirt.

    Turntables are much the same way. People want to get into the latest vinyl craze and they want to do it as cheap as possible. I can't tell you how many people I've seen in hipster bars in Philly walk in with a portable job from the 60's plop it down and start playing something that is barely recognizable because of the POS equipment they are playing it on. You cringe just know that the stylus is likely gouging a grand canyon in the trench instead of delicately reproducing the undulations that create the vibrations that make music to your ears.

    Videos like this are for that kind of person. Someone who doesn't know what's important just thinks that old is good.

    Not all old is good. But some old stuff was built like tanks to exacting tolerances and is still quite good even after hours and hours and hours of use. Much of that stuff can still be serviced with repair parts too.

    But you're going to have a hard time finding that stuff because, often, it's a name you've never heard of and you likely don't have a Doc Hardy to pontificate about it for you. But if you take some time and dig deeper instead of just listening to a bunch of old heads try and squeeze decades of experience into a short YouTube video, you'll not only learn something but you'll meet people who actually know.

    Then, when you talk about looking for a turntable of your own and a guy like George Grand sees your posts and CALLS you directly instead of posting and says "Hey, Jahn, I got dis Micro Seiki unit sittin' 'ere doin' nuthin'. It's yours if you want it. C'mon up, we'll put some ears on it and talk about price ova a cuppa cawfee. Bring some rekkids you like too." You know you should get there yesterday with cash in hand because a Micro Seiki DD-35 is one of those Ford Fairlane Crown Victoria Skyliners. Maybe not a popular and well-known '59 Eldorado level of turntable but, it's one the people who know about turntables will seek out or just whistle and nod in approval when you tell them you have one, how much you got it for 'cause you knew a guy and all you had to do was repair the wiring in the tone arm and get a new cartridge for it.
    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • JstasJstas Posts: 13,825
    halo wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    F1nut wrote: »
    dromunds wrote: »
    I wish the new ones were automatic, seems like they’re all manual which is ok but I like auto too even just semi-auto would be nice. There may be a few auto or semi-auto but not many you wouldn’t think it would be that hard it’s been around for over 50 years

    Tru-lift automatic tonearm lifters. Worth every penny, IMO.

    https://www.integrityhifi.ca/tru-lift

    Jesse offering turntable advice... what a crazy world we live in.

    Signs of the End Times. I read about this in Revelations.

    ;)

    I don’t recall there being any vampires in the book of Revelations :p

    That's 'cause they called them Philistines back then.
    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • dorokusaidorokusai Posts: 25,487
    I grabbed a Pro-Ject III Essential, Ortofon for my stepdad and he couldn’t be happier. And it’s bright Red 👌
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • tophatjohnnytophatjohnny Posts: 2,680
    I turn my table on ocassion..especially if there's something worth watching on the boob tube around grub time.😂
    "if it's not fun, it's not worth it & remember folks, "It's All About The Music"!!
    *****************************
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,456
    re: the post above...

    nvnzag2p5pcb.png

    9i3dz2c7f5hh.png

  • pitdogg2pitdogg2 Posts: 14,719
    edited October 24
    In my area folks are buying albums just to be "hip" and have no turntable to play them on. I guess they look good leaning up against the wall. Geesh we at least had milk crates we "borrowed" from the local grocery store. :p

    I still have my "borrowed" fiberglass heavy duty milk crates.. no albums for a few decades now.
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,456
    mine don't look the least bit hip, unfortunately.

    :|

    48953157687_e36c34ab00_b.jpgDSC_7363 (2) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,456
    Those are the pretty ones.
    The (estimated) couple of thousand in bins in the basement... uggh. :#
  • JstasJstas Posts: 13,825
    Mine are in boxes until I finish the lieberry.
    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
  • jdjohnjdjohn Posts: 1,015
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    You wouldn't like my Sony, which lacks even cueing. I have to go easy on the caffeine when I want to listen to rekkids. :)

    35863954672_f7f79f244a_b.jpgDSC_8876 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
    Ah yes, very nice, and with an Audio Technica ATP-12T tonearm...no anti-skate, either. Should be okay, though, with that Denon 103 tracking heavier than most many cartridges. FWIW, there is currently a Sony TTS-3000 (sans tonearm) for sale at tmraudio: https://tmraudio.com/vinyl/turntables/sony-tts-3000-vintage-turntable-tts3000-no-tonearm/

    I spy an Archer Amplified FM Antenna (a la vintage Rat Shack) hiding behind some, uh, figurines:
    rlvnvqj0u494.jpg
    I have a couple of those antennas myself!

    I think previous comments in this thread have covered the pertinent points, and I, for one, am certainly not going to die on a hill defending either old or new. I've heard fine examples of both. It's truly a case-by-case basis. However, aesthetically, I personally lean towards the older designs. So many of the new models all...look...alike, even from different makers.

    Also, I like to tinker, so re-habbing a vintage turntable brings me pleasure...that's right, I said it. I'm out...loud and proud! Some might say I have a problem...
    b9nhy1rs8027.jpg
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator

    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
  • halohalo Posts: 5,259
    jdjohn wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    You wouldn't like my Sony, which lacks even cueing. I have to go easy on the caffeine when I want to listen to rekkids. :)

    35863954672_f7f79f244a_b.jpgDSC_8876 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
    Ah yes, very nice, and with an Audio Technica ATP-12T tonearm...no anti-skate, either. Should be okay, though, with that Denon 103 tracking heavier than most many cartridges. FWIW, there is currently a Sony TTS-3000 (sans tonearm) for sale at tmraudio: https://tmraudio.com/vinyl/turntables/sony-tts-3000-vintage-turntable-tts3000-no-tonearm/

    I spy an Archer Amplified FM Antenna (a la vintage Rat Shack) hiding behind some, uh, figurines:
    rlvnvqj0u494.jpg
    I have a couple of those antennas myself!

    I think previous comments in this thread have covered the pertinent points, and I, for one, am certainly not going to die on a hill defending either old or new. I've heard fine examples of both. It's truly a case-by-case basis. However, aesthetically, I personally lean towards the older designs. So many of the new models all...look...alike, even from different makers.

    Also, I like to tinker, so re-habbing a vintage turntable brings me pleasure...that's right, I said it. I'm out...loud and proud! Some might say I have a problem...
    b9nhy1rs8027.jpg

    We need a WHOA button!

    :p
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,456
    edited October 24
    jdjohn wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    You wouldn't like my Sony, which lacks even cueing. I have to go easy on the caffeine when I want to listen to rekkids. :)

    35863954672_f7f79f244a_b.jpgDSC_8876 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
    Ah yes, very nice, and with an Audio Technica ATP-12T tonearm...no anti-skate, either. Should be okay, though, with that Denon 103 tracking heavier than most many cartridges. FWIW, there is currently a Sony TTS-3000 (sans tonearm) for sale at tmraudio: https://tmraudio.com/vinyl/turntables/sony-tts-3000-vintage-turntable-tts3000-no-tonearm/

    I spy an Archer Amplified FM Antenna (a la vintage Rat Shack) hiding behind some, uh, figurines:
    rlvnvqj0u494.jpg
    I have a couple of those antennas myself!

    I think previous comments in this thread have covered the pertinent points, and I, for one, am certainly not going to die on a hill defending either old or new. I've heard fine examples of both. It's truly a case-by-case basis. However, aesthetically, I personally lean towards the older designs. So many of the new models all...look...alike, even from different makers.

    Also, I like to tinker, so re-habbing a vintage turntable brings me pleasure...that's right, I said it. I'm out...loud and proud! Some might say I have a problem...
    b9nhy1rs8027.jpg


    I have a couple of those antennae -- one black, one silver. Both dump finds. Both -- well... a good step (or two) up from useless. :|

    The figurines are sort of an inside joke between me and an audiophile colleague... the fellow who build my SE 2A3 amp, in fact. :|

    Yeah, you tinker! I just putter. :p

    One slightly more useful comment (OK, two) -- those early Sony DD tts were... something special. Shhhh -- don't tell anybody :*
    And antiskate -- antiskate, IMO, can (and frequently does) do more harm than good.

    :#
  • jdjohnjdjohn Posts: 1,015
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    And antiskate -- antiskate, IMO, can (and frequently does) do more harm than good.

    :#
    Just like with Brylcreem (looking past Dick's advice)...
    z11n050b2fx2.jpg
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator

    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,456
    well... it worked pretty well for ol' Kookie on 77 Sunset Strip, though, you know? B)

    hu5jz93l5jvj.png
  • jdjohnjdjohn Posts: 1,015
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    You wouldn't like my Sony, which lacks even cueing. I have to go easy on the caffeine when I want to listen to rekkids. :)

    35863954672_f7f79f244a_b.jpgDSC_8876 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
    Hey @mhardy6647, if you'd like a cue lift for your ATP-12T arm, there is a guy on eBay that assembles and sells one.
    oa1sa00x369r.jpg
    thoxl6ujcri8.jpg
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tonearm-lift-to-fit-Audio-Technica-ATP-12T-tonearm/283663785295?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
    "Sometimes I do what I want to do. The rest of the time, I do what I have to." - Cicero, in Gladiator

    Regarding collectibles: "It's not who gets it. It's who gets stuck with it." - Jimmy Fallon
  • K_MK_M Posts: 1,520
    edited November 4
    Few years back, got into vinyl (again I guess) a bit, but never fully dedicated.
    It was fun, as we had inherited a couple of older DUAL tables from my relative that had passed.

    Was quite enjoyable for a while, and the DUAL tables had Ortofon carts. The combination sounded far better than I had expected, but not state of the art, even for the late 70s early 80s stuff it was.

    I believe one was a 1219, other a 1224 it was a changer but only used it with the small adapter for one album at at time.
    Lsi15, Lsi9, LsiC,Rta11t,M5jr+,M4, SDA SRS 2.3TL, Rti6....Still listing stuff, a work in progress.
    B+W-Sold
    Electro Voice EV-SIX
    Infinity-Sold
    Advent-Now gone
    Yamaha A-S801
    Yamaha RX-V377
    Yamaha RX-A860
    Yamaha RX-A3060
    Harman Kardon Hk-350i
    Harman Kardon Hk-........
    Harman Kardon PM-665
    Harman Kardon HK-775
    Pioneer.......Stereo Receiver

  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,456
    jdjohn wrote: »
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    You wouldn't like my Sony, which lacks even cueing. I have to go easy on the caffeine when I want to listen to rekkids. :)

    35863954672_f7f79f244a_b.jpgDSC_8876 (3) by Mark Hardy, on Flickr
    Hey @mhardy6647, if you'd like a cue lift for your ATP-12T arm, there is a guy on eBay that assembles and sells one.
    oa1sa00x369r.jpg
    thoxl6ujcri8.jpg
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tonearm-lift-to-fit-Audio-Technica-ATP-12T-tonearm/283663785295?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

    thanks!!! I knew (well... I believed) that such gizmos existed, but I knew not the source of one.
    I will take a look a the link!
    :)
  • mhardy6647mhardy6647 Posts: 23,456
    edited November 4
    K_M wrote: »
    Few years back, got into vinyl (again I guess) a bit, but never fully dedicated.
    It was fun, as we had inherited a couple of older DUAL tables from my relative that had passed.

    Was quite enjoyable for a while, and the DUAL tables had Ortofon carts. The combination sounded far better than I had expected, but not state of the art, even for the late 70s early 80s stuff it was.

    I believe one was a 1219, other a 1224 it was a changer but only used it with the small adapter for one album at at time.

    Not a big fan of the automatic DUALS -- the company's guiding philosophy for most of their products seemed to me to be why use three parts, when we can use seventeen? ;)

    One cool thing about most of the 'classic' DUAL automatics -- the use of dynamically balanced, as opposed to static balanced, tonearms. Dynamically balanced arms are (more or less) independent of gravity vis-a-vis tracking force, so leveling the table isn't all that big of a deal (at least from DUAL's perspective).

    From the 1019 manual :)

    28358666643_52f87b07ea_o.jpgDual 1019 p3 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr


    Late in the 'real' company's product history, there were some very nice, more 'modern' DD turntables -- but they're not particularly common nor inexpensive at this late date.


    PS The 'dynamic balance' thing can be taken to extremes. B)

    28700000410_d2807e2b27_o.jpginverted tt by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

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