Speaker Rumble With Turntable

Calling all TT experts! I'm close to being where I want to be with my 2-channel setup. I have the following:
- Speakers - Polk Monitor 11 RTA
- Amplifier - B&K 125.2
- Pre-Amplifier - Dared SL-2000a
- Turntable - MCS 6500 (or Rega RP1 or Audio Technica AT-120)
- Phono Pre-Amplifier - Cambridge Audio Azur 651P
- Second Source - Chromecast Audio
- Speaker Cables - Zu Audio Libtec
- Interconnects - Nothing to write home about
- Power Cords - Whatever came with the component!
Currently, I'm using the MCS TT and here's the issue. It sounds pretty good, but I noticed when I took the grills off the speakers, that the drivers were going CRAZY. They were excessively moving (I'm talking like upwards of 1/2" to 1" excursion). Again, no noticeable rumble that I could hear. What was surprising was that even at relatively low volumes, with no music playing (just the needle on the record and whatever static it was projecting), the speaker drivers were dancing excessively.
I tried the same exact song, at about the same volume streamed from Spotify through the Chromecast Audio. Sounded great and the speakers were performing normally (no crazy speaker driver movement).
So, I instinctively thought subsonic rumble. I haven't tried another turntable yet, and was only able to move one speaker further away from the rack. I'll try another TT when I have some time, but I thought I'd reach out to the forum and see if anyone had some quick/easy troubleshooting tips to try in the meantime.
About a year or two ago, I had a similar issue with my daughter's 2-channel setup with her old (AT LP-60) turntable. However, with that setup, along with the excessive driver movement, there was a horrible distortion to the music, and it only reared its ugly head at moderate to higher volumes. It was obviously subsonic rumble. She has since upgraded her TT (Kenwood KD-5070) and the problem no longer exists.
Thoughts? Advice? Subsonic filter? Isolation pads for the TT?
Thanks - Al
- Speakers - Polk Monitor 11 RTA
- Amplifier - B&K 125.2
- Pre-Amplifier - Dared SL-2000a
- Turntable - MCS 6500 (or Rega RP1 or Audio Technica AT-120)
- Phono Pre-Amplifier - Cambridge Audio Azur 651P
- Second Source - Chromecast Audio
- Speaker Cables - Zu Audio Libtec
- Interconnects - Nothing to write home about
- Power Cords - Whatever came with the component!
Currently, I'm using the MCS TT and here's the issue. It sounds pretty good, but I noticed when I took the grills off the speakers, that the drivers were going CRAZY. They were excessively moving (I'm talking like upwards of 1/2" to 1" excursion). Again, no noticeable rumble that I could hear. What was surprising was that even at relatively low volumes, with no music playing (just the needle on the record and whatever static it was projecting), the speaker drivers were dancing excessively.
I tried the same exact song, at about the same volume streamed from Spotify through the Chromecast Audio. Sounded great and the speakers were performing normally (no crazy speaker driver movement).
So, I instinctively thought subsonic rumble. I haven't tried another turntable yet, and was only able to move one speaker further away from the rack. I'll try another TT when I have some time, but I thought I'd reach out to the forum and see if anyone had some quick/easy troubleshooting tips to try in the meantime.
About a year or two ago, I had a similar issue with my daughter's 2-channel setup with her old (AT LP-60) turntable. However, with that setup, along with the excessive driver movement, there was a horrible distortion to the music, and it only reared its ugly head at moderate to higher volumes. It was obviously subsonic rumble. She has since upgraded her TT (Kenwood KD-5070) and the problem no longer exists.
Thoughts? Advice? Subsonic filter? Isolation pads for the TT?
Thanks - Al
Comments
Me personally i wondered how the speaker would of sound without all that excessive movement.
I know there is on the phono pre-amp so maybe turn that on (its called subsonic filter), and see if that changes things.
Also can you confirm which setting you are using MM/MC on the phono pre-amp.
HT:Polk LSiM 706 LSiM 705's VR3 LSiM 703's LSiM 702's| Marantz AV7704 | Sunfire TGA-7401 | Oppo UDP 203 | Sony PS4 Pro| Directv Genie HD DVR | Samsung 75" Q8 QLED | SVS PB13 Ultra | MIT EXP 2's (Fronts & Center)
ManCave: Parasound Halo A21 | Parsound Halo A52+ | Marantz AV7002 AV PrePro | Usher Dancer Mini-x DMD's | Usher BE-616 Center | SVS Ultra Surrounds | SVS SB4000 Sub | SVS SB2000 Sub | Oppo UDP 203 | MIT Shotgun S3's | PSAudio Stellar GCD | Music Hall MMF 5.3se TT w/ Soundsmith Carmen | Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ | Lumin U1 Mini | HP Elite Slice PC | ROON'd for life | Samsung 50" SUHD TV | Sony PS4
Patio | Polk Atrium 8's | Yamaha R-N303BL |
Office |Cocktail Audio X14 | KEF LS50 | Peactree Nova 125SE |
Bedroom | Focal 905's | Chromecast Audio |
Garage | Polk Monitor 5B's
Closet Yamaha M80 | 2 Polk MP3K subs| Yaqin MC100B with Shuguang Treasures KT 88's & CV181Z's | Tesla E83CC's | Marantz 2252B | Marantz 2385 | Bluesound Node |Polk SDA SRS 2.3 |
It's a pretty bad thing, as it is sucking up large amounts of your amplifier's power and contributing to substantial heating of the woofers' voice coils.
Steep rolloff infrasonic filter may help -- may even cure.
Cause is physical coupling (through the air or through surfaces) but the magnitude of the problem can be exacerbated by, shall we say, unfortunate juxtaposition of tonearm mass and cartridge/stylus compliance.
Put a rekkid on the tt (with the tt turned off, but with the amp and phono preamp on, volume to zero).
Cue down the stylus onto the rekkid.
Slowly and carefully turn up the volume.
If you have feedback issues, you'll find out.
HT:Polk LSiM 706 LSiM 705's VR3 LSiM 703's LSiM 702's| Marantz AV7704 | Sunfire TGA-7401 | Oppo UDP 203 | Sony PS4 Pro| Directv Genie HD DVR | Samsung 75" Q8 QLED | SVS PB13 Ultra | MIT EXP 2's (Fronts & Center)
ManCave: Parasound Halo A21 | Parsound Halo A52+ | Marantz AV7002 AV PrePro | Usher Dancer Mini-x DMD's | Usher BE-616 Center | SVS Ultra Surrounds | SVS SB4000 Sub | SVS SB2000 Sub | Oppo UDP 203 | MIT Shotgun S3's | PSAudio Stellar GCD | Music Hall MMF 5.3se TT w/ Soundsmith Carmen | Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ | Lumin U1 Mini | HP Elite Slice PC | ROON'd for life | Samsung 50" SUHD TV | Sony PS4
Patio | Polk Atrium 8's | Yamaha R-N303BL |
Office |Cocktail Audio X14 | KEF LS50 | Peactree Nova 125SE |
Bedroom | Focal 905's | Chromecast Audio |
Garage | Polk Monitor 5B's
Closet Yamaha M80 | 2 Polk MP3K subs| Yaqin MC100B with Shuguang Treasures KT 88's & CV181Z's | Tesla E83CC's | Marantz 2252B | Marantz 2385 | Bluesound Node |Polk SDA SRS 2.3 |
To remedy this, I moved the turntable but then with it being on the right wall, in direct line of the right speaker, by using a 1" thick granite table top, spiking the table, the "woofer pumping" I believe its referred to went away.
I have since moved the turntable next to my right speaker again but still on the same table with granite top, no issues.
Vinyl: Fluance RT82 * Nagaoka MP-110 * Bottlehead Reduction + Integration Upgrade * KAB RF1
Vinyl II: Audio Technica AT-LP120X USB * AT120EB * ART DJ Pre II * Acrylic Turntable Mat
Video: Hisense 55H8F * Panasonic DMP-UB200 * ROKU Premiere * Z-line Designs Elektra
Man, hard to believe that was 6 years ago.
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/130654/sda-2b-distortion#latest
Dan... well, now I feel sorta like an idiot! I'm fairly sure the phono pre is still set correctly to an MM cart, but I completely forgot it had a built-in subsonic filter. D'Oh! I think it was/is set to 'off'. So, that seems to be the easiest thing to check later tonight.
Mikey - thanks for the link... good info! Also, IIRC, the record was playing with the dustcover up/open.
Doc H - for the 'inelegant/traumatic' testing... I'll give it a shot. I'm assuming do this with the TT unplugged (since just moving the tone-arm over the record powers it up), and spin the record manually or just sit the stylus on the record while it's not spinning?
Victor - Ironically, I was spinning a Pink Floyd album as well (but it was the Wall). The record is fairly decent, but could use a good cleaning.
Gmcman - I was wondering if proximity of the speakers to the TT on the glass shelf of the rack was the issue. I can try better isolating and moving the speakers further away.
That's very similar to what mine are doing. Mine seem a lot worse though... I'll see if I can get a video tonight and post it.
Yes, forgot that little point. It won't work if there were some sort of muting circuit that requires the tt to be energized, but I think on a component like the MCS, that's pretty unlikely. Shoulda mentioned that, sorry.
You want the stylus in contact with a record but you want the record not spinning.
You're essentially eliminating playing the record as a variable. I.e., any warp or offcenter pressing effects or drivetrain rumble are not a factor, only the physical coupling of whatever's going on in the room and the cartridge/stylus/arm/record system is being tested.
Good scientific method
EDIT: You could actually not even use a record, but just put the stylus on the platter mat... but 1) this weirds some folks out to do
So, last question... spin the platter manually?
Generally speaking, yes, distance is your friend -- but the coupling can be through the air so moving things may or may not cure the problem, although it may ameliorate the problem.
Guess I should clarify. This was at Axpona, got a little sidetracked on the phone.
When I first had this issue, the 5-shelf Bell'O stand was directly next to the right speaker, the TT was on one of the glass shelves.
When I added the wooden stand I also found a 1" thick granite square coincidentally the same size as the table. I placed this stand along the right wall about 3' from the speaker directly in-line with the right speaker's first reflection point.
Once I found a sturdy stand, the issue stopped. Could have been the fact I moved the TT but I have since moved the rig to the long wall and the TT is back alongside my right speaker...no issues at all.
The Technics 1200 has a decent set of vibration absorbing feet which may help my case. Not the greatest but I assume they are somewhat effective.
I would try a good, solid stand and if you have a lid installed, try removing it if possible. I believe a closed lid may work better than a lid that's open when playing....experiment
https://www.amazon.com/DiversiTech-MP2-V-Anti-Vibration-Pack/dp/B01KAFG8EG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1532608630&sr=8-1&keywords=vibration+pads+2x2
All TV's sound enhanced by Polk Magnfi Mini's.
Other; S60'S, M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage. All speakers have had crossover rebuilds, resulting in a small fortune invested in Sonicaps, and tweeter upgrades.
Political memes posted as fact and accepted as fact, are sign language of the ignorant, for the ignorant
tonyb said " but even socialists can do a good thing here and there
Social media makes dumb people dumber and smart people dumb then dumber.
I know folks who can afford the best imaginable -- everything -- who use 'em.
The same pads are also sold with slightly different cosmetics and under a different name as audiophile accessories for higher prices, if one has misgivings about using a high-value product.
All TV's sound enhanced by Polk Magnfi Mini's.
Other; S60'S, M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage. All speakers have had crossover rebuilds, resulting in a small fortune invested in Sonicaps, and tweeter upgrades.
Political memes posted as fact and accepted as fact, are sign language of the ignorant, for the ignorant
tonyb said " but even socialists can do a good thing here and there
Social media makes dumb people dumber and smart people dumb then dumber.
KEF Q150s, NAD 1155 preamp and 4155 tuner courtesy of DaddyJT, NAD C352 playing power amp, BJC Belden cables, Technics SL3200, Marantz CD6004 courtesy of Clipdat, Salamander Archetype rack, Millenium Falcon
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Hey @mhardy6647 Here is one I'm surprised YOU havent done, given your access to these....
My dad (as a organic chemist) has access to stoppers for beakers and the like.... guess who snagged quite a few over the past few years to use as isolators...
^This guy^
@scubalab while waiting for those other ones to come in, I've heard of folks using hockey pucks before as isolation..... never tried it myself, but bet you can snag some of those locally super easy.
It would be interesting to see a non biased graph comparing stock feet to stillpoints, pads, and spikes.
Good point -- I haven't.
I do use hockey pucks -- mostly because I once found a box full of them on the swap pile at the ol' Harvard, MA town dump, quite a few years ago now.