The next step in the evolution of 2-channel?

halo
halo Posts: 5,616
Interesting article on Atmos enabled 2-channel setups. I immediately thought of SDA's when reading it, wondering if combining the two technologies would result in the final frontier for 2-channel enthusiasts.

avsforum.com/i-used-dolby-atmos-enabled-speakers-in-a-2-2-2-system-heres-what-happened/
Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10
«1

Comments

  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    I definitely believe that technology is the next step in audio for two channel. Not sure about the final part. :)
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,033
    edited July 2017
    ... But unlike silly stuff like cable risers and python-thick power cords, Atmos does something that directly relates to real-world listening...


    And there goes the reviewer's credibility imho.

    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,704
    edited July 2017
    ... But unlike silly stuff like cable risers and python-thick power cords, Atmos does something that directly relates to real-world listening...


    And there goes the reviewer's credibility imho.

    In addition......
    The AVR running the show was more affordable. I used a Denon X4300H AVR ($1499) for processing and amplification—including Audyssey room correction.

    An AVR for serious two channel....pffft....hack....pffft
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    agreed ^^^
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • AVR's just don't dont sound right for music.. they are not good for 2 channel in my opinion..


    over at AVS the general idea is everything sounds exactly the same, you could buy a 5 dollar integrated amp or a 50k dollar integrated amp and they would tell you they will sound exactly the same...... not a great place to go for audio advice, especially for 2 channel audio advice.. that is my opinion..

    Cambridge Azur 651A
    Polk LSi M703
    Sonos Connect




  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 4,981
    Not all AVR'S are created equal. To make such a blanket statement that serious 2 channel listening with an AVR isn't up to snuff is very disingenuous. Total hogwash.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,033
    Not all AVR'S are created equal. To make such a blanket statement that serious 2 channel listening with an AVR isn't up to snuff is very disingenuous. Total hogwash.

    I once thought as you do, padawan... having separate amplification, preferably mono amps, and preamp is preferable to an AVR, or even a two channel receiver. While there are some very capable AVR's out there, having components that are specifically designed for their task and not sharing power supplies to get the job done will be superior.

    I have had some very good AVR's in my journey and thought I had all I needed, until I added a simple two channel amp to drive my front speakers. My eyes were opened to all I had been missing, and no AVR has measured up since.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,616
    F1nut wrote: »
    An AVR for serious two channel....pffft....hack....pffft

    I think one might have difficulty setting up an Atmos enabled 2-channel (2.0.2, 2.1.2, or 2.2.2) without the use of an Atmos enabled AVR. Of course, one could use the preamp outputs on the AVR to feed the signal to a dedicated stereo/2-channel power amplifier as long as the AVR is so equipped.

    Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
    HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10
  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,124
    It actually might be fun if the artist had it recorded that way.

    At least maybe back in my stoopid days :)
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
  • Dennis Gardner
    Dennis Gardner Posts: 4,860
    Henninger is a hack. He runs the Audiophiles on a Budget Facebook page and uses it to push his reviews that he does on AVS. He was pushing Monoprice PA 15 inch speakers last year as the end all for budget 2 channel listening. Arrogance in abundance too.
    HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable

    2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable
  • mikeyb128
    mikeyb128 Posts: 2,885
    edited July 2017
    I can attest no AVR can perform to a similarly priced 2 channel pre, for 2 channel music. It's just not happening. I've gone through the upgrade home theater "wringer" with receivers and pre pros, and I've had some comparatively expensive units compared to 2 channel pre's. Not To say you can't get music out of them because you can, and I've had some nice sounding marantz pre/pros.
    2 channel:
    Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
    Theater:
    Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables.

  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,902
    Maybe consider the bigger differences are in what many consider "good music" to them. Everyone has their own acceptance of what dictates good sound. Some might say no receiver can compete with their boombox too....does that make it true ? Only to that person it does.

    My take....many receivers can sound darn good for 2 channel, no doubt...but, they are not on the same field with good dedicated 2 channel gear.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • motorhead43026
    motorhead43026 Posts: 3,892
    edited July 2017
    Dedicated 2 channel gear for music falls into the less is more category.
    2 channel: Anthem 225 Integrated amp; Parasound Ztuner; TechnicsTT SL1350; Vincent PHO-8 phono pre; Marantz CD6005 spinner; Polk SDA2BTL's; LAT International speaker cables, ZU Mission IC's and power cables all into a PS Audio Dectet Power center.

    Other; M10 series II, M7C's, Hafler XL600 amp, RB-980BX, Parasound HCA-1500 amp , P5 preamp, all in storage. All vintage Polk have had crossover rebuilds and tweeter upgrades.

    The best way to predict the future is to invent it.

    It is imperative that we recognize that an opinion is not a fact.

    Imagine making politics your entire personality.
  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
    edited July 2017
    Dedicated 2 channel gear for music falls into the less is more category.

    That's a big 10-4, at least from my 2017 perspective.

    Actually, even back in the olden days, I liked the tone control flexibility of my Yamaha CA-610II... but, with Monitor 7As, I never actually used them.

    I did, occasionally, use the Yamaha variable loudness, though, I will confess.

    Interestingly, for whatever reason (i.e., Fletcher-Munson effect notwithstanding), single-ended direct heated triode amplification on high-sensitivity loudspeakers reproduces very natural sound even at very low SPLs without loudness compensation. Fadeouts on the upstairs hifi are astonishing in their clarity all the way out to silence, as are acoustic guitar recordings wherein the recording engineer didn't fade out the track too quickly, and the resonance of the guitar's body can be heard decaying away to nothingness. The latter is just a wonderful thing to hear.
  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,616
    edited July 2017
    @mhardy6647, there are some Atmos enabled speakers that have the forward firing drivers as well as drivers on the top, all in one cabinet, like the Pioneer SP-EFS73, which would still technically qualify as a 2-channel set up.

    Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
    HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10
  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 4,981
    mikeyb128 wrote: »
    I can attest no AVR can perform to a similarly priced 2 channel pre, for 2 channel music. It's just not happening. I've gone through the upgrade home theater "wringer" with receivers and pre pros, and I've had some comparatively expensive units compared to 2 channel pre's. Not To say you can't get music out of them because you can, and I've had some nice sounding marantz pre/pros.

    Very interesting...any proof to back up your statement. Not to put you on the spot but with all things audio there simply isn't any proof. It's always nothing more than one's opinions based on their listening experience.

    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
  • deronb1
    deronb1 Posts: 5,021
    Ive owned good seperates and good AVRs A good, well designed AVR that uses good componets, certainly has its merits, when you consider cost difference, room correction and bass management.
  • mikeyb128
    mikeyb128 Posts: 2,885
    edited July 2017
    mikeyb128 wrote: »
    I can attest no AVR can perform to a similarly priced 2 channel pre, for 2 channel music. It's just not happening. I've gone through the upgrade home theater "wringer" with receivers and pre pros, and I've had some comparatively expensive units compared to 2 channel pre's. Not To say you can't get music out of them because you can, and I've had some nice sounding marantz pre/pros.

    Very interesting...any proof to back up your statement. Not to put you on the spot but with all things audio there simply isn't any proof. It's always nothing more than one's opinions based on their listening experience.

    You know I don't have proof. What kind of proof am I supposed to provide for you? REW sweeps I just so happened to save for every system I have had? As you already mentioned it is based on personal experieces, since you already know then why ask? I'm not the only one with this experience based opinion either, so maybe other members with more experience can pull up the "proof" you require to satisfy you're needs.

    That being said I have had good music performance from a theater based pre/pro (marantz) with separates. But I'm sorry, it's not as good as dedicated 2 channel pre.
    2 channel:
    Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
    Theater:
    Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables.

  • dannylightning
    dannylightning Posts: 233
    edited July 2017
    mikeyb128 wrote: »
    I can attest no AVR can perform to a similarly priced 2 channel pre, for 2 channel music. It's just not happening. I've gone through the upgrade home theater "wringer" with receivers and pre pros, and I've had some comparatively expensive units compared to 2 channel pre's. Not To say you can't get music out of them because you can, and I've had some nice sounding marantz pre/pros.

    Very interesting...any proof to back up your statement. Not to put you on the spot but with all things audio there simply isn't any proof. It's always nothing more than one's opinions based on their listening experience.

    its kind of like this.. with a AVR your paying for a receiver that amplifies several different speakers and decodes an bunch of digital files and all kinds of stuff like that.

    for example.. my amp has 2 separate class XD mono block amplifiers inside of it and big turiodal transformers, your paying for quality amplification for only 2 channels and not all the other stuff.

    here is a look inside of a denon AVR which is more expensive than my amp (first photo) and a look inside of my 2 channel amp ( second photo)

    9o7pbq2t1e4s.jpg
    x42b1du9m1vt.jpg
    Cambridge Azur 651A
    Polk LSi M703
    Sonos Connect




  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,616
    Hey folks,

    I wasn't trying to open up a debate about whether separate components are good, better, or best compared to an AVR or even a stereo receiver.

    I wanted to highlight the possibility of utilizing a new technology, specifically Dolby Atmos, to enhance a listener's experience in 2-channel. To me, this is probably a similar idea to Bob Carver's Sonic Holigraphy utilizing the hardware to enhance 2-channel listening. YMMV.
    Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
    HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,033
    There is no correlation to either Sonic Holography or SDA here. The format was developed specifically for film soundtrack applications and not two channel stereo. Even if you are using a front speaker that has the Atmos speakers as part of their design, like the DefTech, you are smearing the two channel source rather than reproducing it correctly.

    While I am sure some material may sound good this way, most will be distorted t the point of needing a few adult beverages to listen to in a critical fashion.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
  • mikeyb128
    mikeyb128 Posts: 2,885
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    9612442175_d4349ea751_b.jpgMarantz8B by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

    Now that's purrrdy!
    2 channel:
    Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
    Theater:
    Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables.

  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,124
    mikeyb128 wrote: »

    Now that's purrrdy!

    And fetch a purrrdy price

    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
  • rpf65
    rpf65 Posts: 2,127
    The issue isn't what is the best, it is buying what is best for the application.

    ATMOS is designed for movie sound tracks: period. It isn't designed for stereo reproduction. If anybody is inferring that somehow ATMOS will be a benefit to music reproduction,in its current form, that person should loose all credibility in any type of electronic, movie, and music reviewing circles.

    I can think of no musical instrument or vocals that I wish to hear coming from overhead.

    In the case that ATMOS enabled 2-channel is used in a small space, such as a small living room or bedroom, then it has potential. Then again, and 5 years ago I would never have said this, just get a sound bar.


  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 32,922
    edited July 2017
    ... and worth every penny.
    One of my top favorite storebought amplifiers. Elegantly engineered and built.

    On topic -- it can be argued that really well recorded and reproduced mono might be as good as it gets. Perhaps the best evocation of a point source is... a point source (i.e., a single point source).
  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,616
    I have a Marantz NR1403 pulling HT duty in our living room but it's only driving the center channel speaker. The pre outs for LF & RF go to the HT Bypass on the Cary & the B&K drivers the LF & RF speakers while watching TV & movies.

    When I'm listening to music, it's just the Cary, the B&K, the source, & the LF + RF.

    I don't use a sub with either the HT or the 2-channel because the living room in the apartment doesn't need it.
    Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
    HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10
  • mikeyb128
    mikeyb128 Posts: 2,885
    nbrowser wrote: »
    mikeyb128 wrote: »
    I can attest no AVR can perform to a similarly priced 2 channel pre, for 2 channel music. It's just not happening. I've gone through the upgrade home theater "wringer" with receivers and pre pros, and I've had some comparatively expensive units compared to 2 channel pre's. Not To say you can't get music out of them because you can, and I've had some nice sounding marantz pre/pros.

    I'd have to agree on Marantz making some fine sounding gear, while not on the level of the HT pre/pros my SR5010 AVR sure sounds a cut above the Onk it replaced...make that 10 cuts above. Just sounds smoother and more refined by my ears. I will state I am referring to 2.1 mode for music, no H/T modes enabled. The .1 is cause I like my bass though.

    The SR6008 in the bedroom has been told it's only got 2 speakers hooked up to it and it can't go any further than 2.1 mode itself. Works quite well as a stereo receiver. But then again we aren't talking tin can receivers here.

    Those marantz are beauties. When I had the marantz,sunfire, lsim 705, MIT shot gun, set up for home theater it did sound very good in direct pure. I could see a lot of people being satisfied with just that, and not wanting any better.
    2 channel:
    Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
    Theater:
    Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables.