Just Discovering Lossless Digital

2

Comments

  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 13,940
    afterburnt wrote: »
    You could compare a hybrid SACD no?

    A hybrid CD is just regular CD (for the CD portion) at 16/44. However, it might be mastered differently than the version on only a regular CD, so then there could be a difference in sound.

    Bud - Silicon Valley

    Lumin X1 file player
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on preamp, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • tonyb wrote: »
    machone wrote: »
    I have only ripped to WAV to date.
    When ripping cds how does the sound quality compare between WAV and FLAC?

    Depends....on if your system is revealing enough to discern those small differences. Wav files take up much more room than Flac or other lossless formats but if you have a nice big external hard drive it shouldn't be an issue.

    The reason Wav files take up more room is because they are uncompressed, unlike other lossless formats which are, and then uncompressed at playback. Some say it does make a difference in sound quality, some say not so much. I guess that comes down to your system.

    FLAC audio can be set to various levels of compression including zero compression. At FLAC level 8 the audio is not compressed.

    Lossless is lossless regardless of the format. If you hear a difference between different formats when comparing equal quality recordings then you have another deficiency in your system to address.

    I have been collecting FLAC audio for ten years now. FLAC isn't anything new. It's been around for 20 years. At this time I have over 15 TB of FLAC audio and am still growing. All of my audio files are on Western Digital Caviar Black SATA hard drives in an Addonics hot-swapable tower.
  • NightfallNightfall Posts: 9,422
    At this time I have over 15 TB of FLAC audio and am still growing.

    Wow, that's a small fortune in music $$$$

    Oh, wait... that's right. I meant

    Wow, that's several lifetimes in prison if you get caught with all that!
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
  • tophatjohnnytophatjohnny Posts: 3,120
    edited September 2016
    tonyb wrote: »
    machone wrote: »
    I have only ripped to WAV to date.
    When ripping cds how does the sound quality compare between WAV and FLAC?

    Depends....on if your system is revealing enough to discern those small differences. Wav files take up much more room than Flac or other lossless formats but if you have a nice big external hard drive it shouldn't be an issue.

    The reason Wav files take up more room is because they are uncompressed, unlike other lossless formats which are, and then uncompressed at playback. Some say it does make a difference in sound quality, some say not so much. I guess that comes down to your system.

    FLAC audio can be set to various levels of compression including zero compression. At FLAC level 8 the audio is not compressed.

    Lossless is lossless regardless of the format. If you hear a difference between different formats when comparing equal quality recordings then you have another deficiency in your system to address.

    I have been collecting FLAC audio for ten years now. FLAC isn't anything new. It's been around for 20 years. At this time I have over 15 TB of FLAC audio and am still growing. All of my audio files are on Western Digital Caviar Black SATA hard drives in an Addonics hot-swapable tower.

    "Lossless is lossless regardless of the format. If you hear a difference between different formats when comparing equal quality recordings then you have another deficiency in your system to address."

    Actually if you can't hear the difference you have a deficiency in your system! Whether you address it or not is your choice.

    And over 15TB worth of Audio = easily over 25 thousand albums, even at 16bit 441000Hz.......and I Thought I had a ton with 8500 albums??? My formula is working so good, I am now swapping my 2 WD Red 4TB's for 2
    Seagate 10TB IronWolf NAS SATA 6Gb/s drives and when the 10TB drive full, it should be a little over 20 thousand albums, artwork and all. Crazy hobby, but a lotta fun.. get down!!!
    "if it's not fun, it's not worth it & remember folks, "It's All About The Music"!!
    *****************************
  • erniejadeerniejade Posts: 5,433
    edited September 2016
    I can hear the difference. I can play a cd, running to a W4S dac2, and then listen to FLAC rip of the same cd running through Jriver to the same w4s dac2 I can pick the cd every time. I have upgraded my usb calbe and that helped bring it closer but the cd still sounds better. From what I have been reading, I might need to try something other then the laptop for my source.

    Although reading DarqueKnight threads, his dac and player setup is way above mine and he can also hear the difference unless I am reading his threads wrong.
    Den: Lumin D1,Wireworld Silver Eclipse RCA, KEF LS50 Wireless, Velodyne SPL1200, Technics 1200, Denon DL160, Jolida D9,

    Living Room:,T+A PA 1530R,Wireworld Silver Eclipse SC, Tyler Highland H2, High Fidelity Reveal RCA, Aries Mini, W4S recovery, LKS MH-da004,

    Have but haven't used in a while: LH Labs VI Dac, Cayin SCD50T, Grant Fidelity Tube Dac 11.
  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 13,940
    Sure he can. The rips are always better than the CD.
    Bud - Silicon Valley

    Lumin X1 file player
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on preamp, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • machonemachone Posts: 1,279
    BlueFox,
    Why do you think the rips are better that the CD?
    Mojo Audio Illuminati v3>>Quantum Byte w/LMS>>Rpi/PiCoreplayer>> Starlight 7 USB >> Mojo Audio Mystique v2 SE>>ModWright SWL 9.0 SE Signature>>Hafler DH-500 Amp+ (Musical Concepts Fully Modded)>>
    SRS 2.3TL (Fully Modded)...Velodyne Optimum 8 subwoofer
    1KVA Dreadnought

    Marantz SA 8005
    Pioneer PLX-1000 Turntable - Shure SC35C/N35X - V15III/VN35HE
    Yamaha TX-540 Tuner...Sony BDP-S570
    Sony PS4

    Separate subpanel with four dedicated 20 amp circuits.
    1. Amplification 2. Analog 3. Digital 4. Video

    "All THAT IS LOST FROM THE SOURCE IS LOST FOREVER"
  • mikeyb128mikeyb128 Posts: 2,887
    DSkip wrote: »
    machone wrote: »
    BlueFox,
    Why do you think the rips are better that the CD?

    No transport to add noise. It is all about noise reduction, hence why a laptop is normally not a good solution for a source.

    How about a lap top with a solid state drive?
    2 channel:
    Bryston 4B3, Bryston BDA3, Cary SLP05, Shanling CDT1000SE with parts conneXion level 2 mods, Nottingham analogue ace space 294, soundsmith Carmen MKii, Zu DL103 MKii, Ortofon MC 20 MKii, Dynavector XX2 MKii, Rogue Audio Ares, Core power technologies balanced power conditioner, Akiko Corelli power conditioner with Akiko Audio HQ power cable, Nordost heimdall 2, Frey 2, interconnects, speaker and power cables, Focal Electra 1028 BE 2, Auralic Aries Femto, Black diamond racing cones, ingress audio level 1 roller blocks, JL Audio E110 with Auralic subdude, Primacoustics room treatments.
    Theater:
    Focal Aria 926,905,CC900, SVS PB ultra x2. Pioneer Elite SC85, Oppo BDP93, Panamax M5400PM, Minix neox6, Nordost Blue heaven LS power cables.

  • txcoastal1txcoastal1 Posts: 11,546
    mikeyb128 wrote: »
    DSkip wrote: »
    machone wrote: »
    BlueFox,
    Why do you think the rips are better that the CD?

    No transport to add noise. It is all about noise reduction, hence why a laptop is normally not a good solution for a source.

    How about a lap top with a solid state drive?

    Would be an improvement but laptop power supplies is an inherent issue also
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
    Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
    Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC

    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
  • machonemachone Posts: 1,279
    I am all in when it comes to reducing any type of noise. That is the reason I go rid on my laptop and went all solid state, Fidelizer, IFI Purifier 2, linear power supply, etc. All of these made improvements.

    However, on my system I am not sure that rips sound better than CDs. Both are running through the Marantz SA8005 dac. But one thing that I am guilty of is using Windows Media Player to rip the CDs. Too busy/lazy to re-rip using Jriver.

    One other option with the SA8005 is to copy the wav file to a thumb drive and play via the usb port on the front panel.
    Mojo Audio Illuminati v3>>Quantum Byte w/LMS>>Rpi/PiCoreplayer>> Starlight 7 USB >> Mojo Audio Mystique v2 SE>>ModWright SWL 9.0 SE Signature>>Hafler DH-500 Amp+ (Musical Concepts Fully Modded)>>
    SRS 2.3TL (Fully Modded)...Velodyne Optimum 8 subwoofer
    1KVA Dreadnought

    Marantz SA 8005
    Pioneer PLX-1000 Turntable - Shure SC35C/N35X - V15III/VN35HE
    Yamaha TX-540 Tuner...Sony BDP-S570
    Sony PS4

    Separate subpanel with four dedicated 20 amp circuits.
    1. Amplification 2. Analog 3. Digital 4. Video

    "All THAT IS LOST FROM THE SOURCE IS LOST FOREVER"
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,148
    I don't believe Windows Media is bit perfect. Stop being lazy and do it the correct way :p
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • BlueFoxBlueFox Posts: 13,940
    machone wrote: »
    BlueFox,
    Why do you think the rips are better that the CD?

    I was referring to the previous post where the poster said DK hears a difference.

    One reason might be that while the ripped file is the same as the file on the CD disc, as others mentioned, you do get read jitter using a laser to read pits on a plastic disc.

    Personally, I find my file player with built in DAC to be much better than my CD player, which actually is not too bad.

    If you are running a file player into your CD player and using the CD player internal DAC then you need to take into account the cable used between the file player and DAC, along with the power supply cable on the file player. Those two cables can make or break the sound quality.

    Bud - Silicon Valley

    Lumin X1 file player
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on preamp, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
  • erniejadeerniejade Posts: 5,433
    I am hopping so skip. I am still waiting for the VI Tube Dac to be built. I was one of the early people who got on board with the pulse dac but opted for the upgraded Vi Tube.

    The final piece might be getting the laptop out of the picture.
    Den: Lumin D1,Wireworld Silver Eclipse RCA, KEF LS50 Wireless, Velodyne SPL1200, Technics 1200, Denon DL160, Jolida D9,

    Living Room:,T+A PA 1530R,Wireworld Silver Eclipse SC, Tyler Highland H2, High Fidelity Reveal RCA, Aries Mini, W4S recovery, LKS MH-da004,

    Have but haven't used in a while: LH Labs VI Dac, Cayin SCD50T, Grant Fidelity Tube Dac 11.
  • jeremymarcinkojeremymarcinko Posts: 3,683
    edited September 2016
    I stream JRiver via DNLA and use the optical out from a chromecast audio ($35) into the Musical Fidelity DAC. It sounds very good and is very inexpensive. I really do not think I would even consider connecting via usb at this point.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • lightman1lightman1 Posts: 10,745
    DSkip wrote: »
    but then again I've got a couple grand into my streamer and USB cable.
    mxandfq60nq6.gif

  • StantonZStantonZ Posts: 407
    A lot of these cables/connections issues are dispensed with if you put a FLASH drive in the USB slot of your AVR; I have pretty much moved from CD -> FLAC with my new AVR (although CDs on my LD player still sound pretty good).
    Yamaha RX-A2050 AVR (5.0.2)
    (4) Polk Monitor 10B's w/SoniCaps, Mills, and RDO-194 tweets (R/L F/R)
    (2) Polk Monitor 4's w/peerless tweets (Top Middle)
    Polk CS300 center channel
    Analog: B&O TX2 Turntable, Nakamichi Cassette Deck 1
    Digital: Pioneer CLD-99 Elite LD, Panasonic DMP-UB900 UHD Blu-Ray
    LG 65EF9500 4K OLED
  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 7,234
    edited October 2016

    FLAC audio can be set to various levels of compression including zero compression. At FLAC level 8 the audio is not compressed.

    Level 8 is still compressed. Below level 8 in the dBpoweramp drop down menu is Uncompressed, which is kind of an oxymoron. Uncompressed is a special compression mode which stores 16 bit audio in an uncompressed state. ;)

    To me, the important thing with flac using dBpoweramp is tick the 'Verify Written Audio' box after selecting flac level. Then, after encoding and compression is complete, the compressed audio will be read and compared to the source.



    http://www.audiostream.com/images/1125flac.jpgu3g85bxf11e6.png
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *

  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 7,234
    edited October 2016
    Oh, if you diy and build your own music server using Vortexbox 2.4 (Linux, PC must be 64 bit), it is designed from the ground up to be a bit perfect CD ripper, server, and player. IIRC V2.4 can handle up to 32/384. Sometimes I rip CD's with my server instead of dBpoweramp and just check/adjust tagging afterward.

    I use a Signature Sonore Music Server with Deux power supply. Vortexbox 2.4. You can use internal drives or point your server to an external hard drive array.

    http://wiki.vortexbox.org/installation_guide
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *

  • tonybtonyb Posts: 32,506
    I think you guys are going way over the OP's head here. lol

    Ya don't throw a kid who just got his license into a Ferrari, know what I'm sayin' ?
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • NightfallNightfall Posts: 9,422
    ENZOF3.jpg
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
  • SCompRacerSCompRacer Posts: 7,234
    tonyb wrote: »
    I think you guys are going way over the OP's head here. lol

    :smiley:

    Screen-Shot-2013-07-29-at-8.13.31-AM.png
    Make yourself necessary to someone. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ & Pro 11+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS* Twisted Pear Buffalo III Dual Mono ESS Sabre32 DAC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *

  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,673
    edited October 2016
    erniejade wrote: »
    Although reading DarqueKnight threads, his dac and player setup is way above mine and he can also hear the difference unless I am reading his threads wrong.

    You read them correctly. Other than when in my car or truck, I don't listen to CDs anymore. Everything is either a download or CD ripped to uncompressed FLAC using dBpoweramp. My SACDs were/are ripped to dsf files using a hacked Sony Playstation.

    The only time I buy something in CD or SACD disk format is if it isn't available in digital download format.

    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • machonemachone Posts: 1,279
    heiney9,

    I finally took the time and I am a believer.

    I have been re-ripping cds to wav files using Jriver and they are better than the same cds ripped to wav using Windows Media Player. I am hearing things in music previously unnoticed.

    The Marantz SA-8500 sounds better than ever. I know I keep saying this but I keep tweaking in the right direction.
    Mojo Audio Illuminati v3>>Quantum Byte w/LMS>>Rpi/PiCoreplayer>> Starlight 7 USB >> Mojo Audio Mystique v2 SE>>ModWright SWL 9.0 SE Signature>>Hafler DH-500 Amp+ (Musical Concepts Fully Modded)>>
    SRS 2.3TL (Fully Modded)...Velodyne Optimum 8 subwoofer
    1KVA Dreadnought

    Marantz SA 8005
    Pioneer PLX-1000 Turntable - Shure SC35C/N35X - V15III/VN35HE
    Yamaha TX-540 Tuner...Sony BDP-S570
    Sony PS4

    Separate subpanel with four dedicated 20 amp circuits.
    1. Amplification 2. Analog 3. Digital 4. Video

    "All THAT IS LOST FROM THE SOURCE IS LOST FOREVER"
  • erniejadeerniejade Posts: 5,433
    Wav for me was also the big changer as well.
    Den: Lumin D1,Wireworld Silver Eclipse RCA, KEF LS50 Wireless, Velodyne SPL1200, Technics 1200, Denon DL160, Jolida D9,

    Living Room:,T+A PA 1530R,Wireworld Silver Eclipse SC, Tyler Highland H2, High Fidelity Reveal RCA, Aries Mini, W4S recovery, LKS MH-da004,

    Have but haven't used in a while: LH Labs VI Dac, Cayin SCD50T, Grant Fidelity Tube Dac 11.
  • daddyjtdaddyjt Posts: 1,494
    All of the tech aside, can I just say that the thing I love about the FLAC format, is that I have access to my entire music collection without moving my a** off the couch to change discs.

    Priceless.
  • Okay I just did a 24/96 WAV versus FLAC comparo last night and while FLAC won in the bass,WAV won out everywhere else. The singers voice was more three dimensional and not as forward or had as much of a "biting" sound to it. Both files were downloaded from HDtracks and streamed to my Oppo from my backup hard drive over my wired network.
  • erniejadeerniejade Posts: 5,433
    When I did a comparison, I ripped them myself with dbpoweramp. I will agree uncompressed flac had a hair more bass but on my rig, it was a different kind of bass. Almost like bass where bass should not be and not as clean or airy sounding.
    I have changed to ripping to uncompressed wav.
    cd and lp are still king on my rig though... for now.
    Den: Lumin D1,Wireworld Silver Eclipse RCA, KEF LS50 Wireless, Velodyne SPL1200, Technics 1200, Denon DL160, Jolida D9,

    Living Room:,T+A PA 1530R,Wireworld Silver Eclipse SC, Tyler Highland H2, High Fidelity Reveal RCA, Aries Mini, W4S recovery, LKS MH-da004,

    Have but haven't used in a while: LH Labs VI Dac, Cayin SCD50T, Grant Fidelity Tube Dac 11.
  • @erniejade
    I tried to see if I could hear a difference between FLAC and WAV at CD quality 16bit/44.1khz
    I just couldn't.
    It was obvious at higher than CD quality 24bit/96khz though.
  • erniejadeerniejade Posts: 5,433
    I am on my mobile device, I cannot see if you have equipment listed in your signature. Anyone reading this, please do not take this as a slam on anyone's ears or equipment.

    On my w4s dac 2, using my laptop, intona usb filter, wireworld platinum usb cable ( thanks skip!) Jitterbug on the usb drive, Joule preamp, mcintosh mc402 amp, cayin scd50T, MIT digital cable, wireworld eclipse IC, acoustic zen double barrel speaker cables and psb imagine T speakers, the difference to me, my wife and a couple of people who were over ( non audiophile but love music) could pick out the cd, or rip every time. They could also pick out flac and wav every time. This was done by not telling them and askjng what sounds better 1 or 2.

    In the livingroom, same test but, pioneer sc27 receiver, polk rti12, using the receivers dac, going to the digital input on the receiver, we could not hear the difference between flac, wav, or the cd. It sounded good on any of the 3 choices.
    Den: Lumin D1,Wireworld Silver Eclipse RCA, KEF LS50 Wireless, Velodyne SPL1200, Technics 1200, Denon DL160, Jolida D9,

    Living Room:,T+A PA 1530R,Wireworld Silver Eclipse SC, Tyler Highland H2, High Fidelity Reveal RCA, Aries Mini, W4S recovery, LKS MH-da004,

    Have but haven't used in a while: LH Labs VI Dac, Cayin SCD50T, Grant Fidelity Tube Dac 11.
  • Yeah with that caliber of equipment I can see how and why you could hear the difference!
    :)
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