SDA IC cable can make or break soundstage
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gmcman
Posts: 1,759
Granted this has been discussed, but I wanted to post my findings on using an inferior cable.
Been gone this weekend, let some tubes burn in for a while, came back and realized that these freshly modded 2.3TL's with just over 300 hours of continuous burn in, plus a recently aquired tube preamp, have zero soundstage....well, nothing past the speakers and little depth so I knew something else was amiss.
Only thing different from the 2B's was the IC cable I've been using after DarqueKnight's thread on the Monster Z2R Reference speaker cable.
Excluding the internal resistance of the meter, the Monster cable IC has .15 ohms on my DMM through the banana connector. In comparison, the RCA cable that I was using that came with the speakers measures a whopping .87 ohms.
I haven't been using the Monster Z2 because I still need to add the binding posts to the 2.3's. I added a short length of copper wire and pushed it into the pin connector on the 2.3's for a test and the soundstage is back and more defined than the 2B's.
With the 4" of added wire in each end the ohms went to .27 but still a vast improvement of the other cable.
Just a testament than any cable with a rca pin may not provide the soundstage you're looking for.
Been gone this weekend, let some tubes burn in for a while, came back and realized that these freshly modded 2.3TL's with just over 300 hours of continuous burn in, plus a recently aquired tube preamp, have zero soundstage....well, nothing past the speakers and little depth so I knew something else was amiss.
Only thing different from the 2B's was the IC cable I've been using after DarqueKnight's thread on the Monster Z2R Reference speaker cable.
Excluding the internal resistance of the meter, the Monster cable IC has .15 ohms on my DMM through the banana connector. In comparison, the RCA cable that I was using that came with the speakers measures a whopping .87 ohms.
I haven't been using the Monster Z2 because I still need to add the binding posts to the 2.3's. I added a short length of copper wire and pushed it into the pin connector on the 2.3's for a test and the soundstage is back and more defined than the 2B's.
With the 4" of added wire in each end the ohms went to .27 but still a vast improvement of the other cable.
Just a testament than any cable with a rca pin may not provide the soundstage you're looking for.
Comments
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Maybe the cable or ends were defective, when pushed at certain angles.
For there to be "no soundstage beyond speakers" you are essentially saying there is no connection between them.
For there to be a vast improvement, sounds more like a connection issue or intermittent wire issue.
A fraction of an ohm more resistance, will not make the SDA effect totally vanish. -
Going from Radio Shack/Home Depot speaker wire to MIT EXp-2 speaker wire made my soundstage bigger. There was nothing defective about any of the cable nor was there a connection issue.afterburnt wrote: »They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.
Village Idiot of Club Polk -
Maybe the cable or ends were defective, when pushed at certain angles.
Or maybe different cables have different electrical noise characteristics and noisier cables mask the signal content that conveys spatial properties.
The noise characteristics of different SDA interconnect cables are measurable and audible:
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2044661#Comment_2044661For there to be "no soundstage beyond speakers" you are essentially saying there is no connection between them.
No, he was saying that there was no imaging beyond the outside boundaries of the speakers. Imaging beyond the outside boundaries of the speakers is one of the primary stereophonic performance characteristics of SDA loudspeakers.For there to be a vast improvement, sounds more like a connection issue or intermittent wire issue.
It's more of an issue with you not fully understanding stereophonic performance characteristics and the differences between conventional and SDA loudspeakers.A fraction of an ohm more resistance, will not make the SDA effect totally vanish.
Please cite the scientific basis for this.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
I would add, on the 4th and 5th generation, the difference signal passed back and forth across a single conductor. The 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, generation passed the full signal, on separate conductors.Home Theater/2 Channel:
Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
dhsspeakerservice.com/ -
A fraction of an ohm more resistance, will not make the SDA effect totally vanish.
I understand what you're saying, however this wasn't a fraction, but this was a factor of more than 5 times the resistance. While tenths of an ohm don't seem like alot, in speakers it's quite a bit.
When I was listening to very familiar music, my focus was on the speakers, not that immense wall of sound that I was used to where the speakers kinda disappear as a focal point.
There was a difference with the IC cable connected and disconnected, but when connected there wasn't a whole lot going on in terms of the SDA function. -
While tenths of an ohm don't seem like alot, in speakers it's quite a bit.
One very good example of this is the small amount of added resistance when a tweeter protection poly switch trips:DarqueKnight wrote: »
Data sheets for the RUE090 and RXE series polyswitches are attached below.
The RXE050 (RDE050A) has a resistance range of 0.50 to 0.77 ohm, with a post trip resistance 1.17 ohm.
The RUE090 (RDE090A) has a resistance range of 0.07 to 0.12 ohm, with a post trip resistance 0.22 ohm.
The RUE090 (RDE090A) has a resistance range of 0.25 to 0.40 ohm, with a post trip resistance 0.60 ohm.
The current replacement polyswitch, the RXE135, has a resistance range of 0.12 to 0.19 ohm, with a post trip resistance 0.30 ohm.
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/73796/sda-polyswitches-are-nasty/p1
Removing the polyswitch and replacing it with a jumper, or replacing the polyswitch with a 0.1 ohm, 0.2 ohm, or 0.5 ohm resistor, all have audibly different results.
In the study below, I did listening and measurement comparisons with replacing the polyswitches in a pair of SDA SRS 1.2TLs with a 0.15 ohm resistor and a jumper wire:
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/128258/resistor-replacement-for-the-sda-srs-1-2tl-polyswitchProud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »
Removing the polyswitch and replacing it with a jumper, or replacing the polyswitch with a 0.1 ohm, 0.2 ohm, or 0.5 ohm resistor, all have audibly different results.
The other day I removed the .5 Ohm Mills from the 2.3TL just to see how the speaker would react. Playing "Rumors" CD, I believe it was "Never Going Back"... while (what sounds like) the guitar pick.. is easily audible, what I did hear with the jumper in place of the .5 Mills was the contact the pick made on the string. Perhaps that's audible on other systems, but on mine the difference was noticeable, however with the jumper the highs were just a tad bright so I need to find that compromise. I want to try the .5 Duelund CAST now but that's not the cheapest alternative....but that's the hobby I suppose.
For the IC cable, here's what I was working with, I had to re-measure for the pic but similar results.
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DarqueKnight wrote: »Maybe the cable or ends were defective, when pushed at certain angles.
Or maybe different cables have different electrical noise characteristics and noisier cables mask the signal content that conveys spatial properties.
The noise characteristics of different SDA interconnect cables are measurable and audible:
http://forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/comment/2044661#Comment_2044661For there to be "no soundstage beyond speakers" you are essentially saying there is no connection between them.
No, he was saying that there was no imaging beyond the outside boundaries of the speakers. Imaging beyond the outside boundaries of the speakers is one of the primary stereophonic performance characteristics of SDA loudspeakers.For there to be a vast improvement, sounds more like a connection issue or intermittent wire issue.
It's more of an issue with you not fully understanding stereophonic performance characteristics and the differences between conventional and SDA loudspeakers.A fraction of an ohm more resistance, will not make the SDA effect totally vanish.
Please cite the scientific basis for this.
I have a set of these speakers.........I TRULY DO know how they work. Imagine that!
Yes I am certain you might be completely correct about every scenario you mention.
But I sense your post was made to simply come off as condescending. I get it, you love to argue..................Hey it is the internet, and that is what some like to do.
I realize on a few other audio forums, you were ridiculed, and schooled about your "Knowledge", so just relax, and try to come off as less condesceding. It is not an appealing characteristic.
We are all just giving ideas and opinions.
Please do not argue with me. It accomplishes nothing in the end.
You seem okay in real life, oddly your personality does not carry over online.
Meant as a compliment!
Post edited by K_M on -
A fraction of an ohm more resistance, will not make the SDA effect totally vanish.
I understand what you're saying, however this wasn't a fraction, but this was a factor of more than 5 times the resistance. While tenths of an ohm don't seem like alot, in speakers it's quite a bit.
When I was listening to very familiar music, my focus was on the speakers, not that immense wall of sound that I was used to where the speakers kinda disappear as a focal point.
There was a difference with the IC cable connected and disconnected, but when connected there wasn't a whole lot going on in terms of the SDA function.
Gotcha, from your original post, sounded as if you were saying the SDA effect totally vanished, and reappeared when you switched to another cable, leading me to believe you were describing more of a connection or intermittent issue, that created "Zero soundstage"
Either way, glad you got it fixed! -
I'll take @DarqueKnight 's and @F1nut 's advice, counsel and technical knowledge everyday of the week, and twice on Sunday.Home Theater/2 Channel:
Front: SDA-2ATL forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/143984/my-2as-finally-finished-almost/p1
Center: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/150760/my-center-channel-project/p1
Surrounds & Rears: Custom Built forum.polkaudio.com/discussion/151647/my-surround-project/p1
Sonicaps, Mills, RDO-194s-198s, Dynamat, Hurricane Nuts, Blackhole5
Pioneer Elite VSX-72TXV, Carver PM-600, SVS PB2-Plus Subwoofer
dhsspeakerservice.com/ -
I have a set of these speakers.........I TRULY DO know how they work. Imagine that!
I have a car and a truck, and I know how to drive both of them, but I don't truly understand all the technical details of internal combustion engines, drive trains, etc. Owning something does not equate to truly knowing how it works.Yes I am certain you might be completely correct about every scenario you mention. But I sense your post was made to simply come off as condescending. I get it, you love to argue..................Hey it is the internet, and that is what some like to do.
You take it as condescension because you cannot technically support your argument. This is a common response (personal attacks) from people who like to throw rocks and then feel cornered when asked to scientifically justify their views.I realize on a few other audio forums, you were ridiculed, and schooled about your "Knowledge", so just relax, and try to come off as less condesceding. It is not an appealing characteristic.
I wasn't aware that ridicule equated to being wrong. If you do a casual review of scientific history, most scientific pioneers were widely ridiculed when they challenged conventional "thought". As always, I am willing to accept correction on points where I am technically wrong, hence my asking you to cite the scientific basis for your views.
I don't recall incidents of being "schooled about my knowledge". Can you provide links to such incidents? I do recall a fellow on AVS begging me to recant my publications because "it made him and his friends look like fools". Perhaps, similar to the case with F1nut, you are confusing me with someone else.We are all just giving ideas and opinions.
Please do not argue with me. It accomplishes nothing in the end.
So, you want to be free to give your ideas and opinions, but when asked to provide a rational, scientific basis for them, you want to hurl accusations of "arguing", and "condescension"?You seem okay in real life, oddly your personality does not carry over online.
Meant as a compliment!
Thanks for the "compliment".
As many on this forum who have interacted with me in real life will attest, my online personality is the same as my "real world" personality.
I don't recall meeting you in real life. When/where did this occur? I recall conversing with you in PMs about some issues you were having on the forum, and that you were leaving forever.Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
DarqueKnight wrote: »
Removing the polyswitch and replacing it with a jumper, or replacing the polyswitch with a 0.1 ohm, 0.2 ohm, or 0.5 ohm resistor, all have audibly different results.
The other day I removed the .5 Ohm Mills from the 2.3TL just to see how the speaker would react. Playing "Rumors" CD, I believe it was "Never Going Back"... while (what sounds like) the guitar pick.. is easily audible, what I did hear with the jumper in place of the .5 Mills was the contact the pick made on the string. Perhaps that's audible on other systems, but on mine the difference was noticeable, however with the jumper the highs were just a tad bright so I need to find that compromise. I want to try the .5 Duelund CAST now but that's not the cheapest alternative....but that's the hobby I suppose.
For the IC cable, here's what I was working with, I had to re-measure for the pic but similar results.
I think that are noticeable differences on different ohms values, you will find yourself hardly pressed to distinguish a diference from a .5ohm mills and a .5ohms duelund.
The same goes to wire, on short runs it doesn't matter how expensive it is, I always favor a quality professional studio brand and stay away of exotic stuff...
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What's half an ohm between 'Ohmies y'all?Just a dude doing dude-ly things
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You can hear a .5 ohm difference in resistors that replace the poly switches because they effect the tweeters.
I'm skeptical that changing the interconnect cable resistance by .5 ohm could be heard since it only effects the mid-woofers. If that was the case it seems like the length of the IC would make a difference in the sound and we would all be striving to get the IC cable the perfect length.- SDA 2BTL · Sonicaps · Mills resistors · RDO-198s · New gaskets · H-nuts · Erse inductors · BH5 · Dynamat
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You can hear a .5 ohm difference in resistors that replace the poly switches because they effect the tweeters.
AbsolutelyI'm skeptical that changing the interconnect cable resistance by .5 ohm could be heard since it only effects the mid-woofers. If that was the case it seems like the length of the IC would make a difference in the sound and we would all be striving to get the IC cable the perfect length.
That's a valid point. Could be the nature of the cable and not solely the resistance.
