RTi12 lack alot of mid and high detail vs. RTi8

cnjvh
cnjvh Posts: 253
Hi all,

I currently use RTi12 fronts, CSi5 center, and RTi8 surrounds. This is all powered by a Denon 3805 AVR (all speakers small, crossover set to 80).

I've been increasingly unhappy with the front soundstage in that the sound never really seemed seamless and there was little mid/high end detail. Just for fun I swapped in the RTi8's in the front and heard everything I missed. Seamless front soundstage and much more defined mids and highs.

Next step was to connect an Rti8 to one channel and an RTi12 to the other to hear the difference which turned out to be significant. The RTi12 seemed muddy and undefined compared to the Rti8. This finding was universal across a variety of music and movie sources.

I've put my ear right next to the mid drivers and the tweeters and verified they are functioning (in that they are at least making some sound and not totally dead). I'm the original owner of these and they have been babied...RARELY listen louder than -15 or -20 so I can't imagine that they've been damaged.

So, what gives? I know the RTi12's require alot of power to drive them in the low end, but mid/high end detail when running them as small should be fine with a quality AVR, should it not?

Are the RTi8's just inherently more bright/detailed the the 12's? Could I have failing crossovers? Seems like they should be on par or better than the 8's.

Thanks!
No earth robot is going to tell ME which button to press!!

--Stuff--
Front: Polk Audio RTi12
Center: Polk Audio CSi5
Surrounds: Polk Audio RTi8 (x4)
Sub: SVS PB10-ISD (Dual)
AVR: Denon AVR-3805
Blu-Ray: Panasonic BD30
Display: Sony KDL-55NX720B
STB: Xfinity X1DVR
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Comments

  • rpf65
    rpf65 Posts: 2,127
    That AVR doesn't have any where near the power to do those 12's justice. Your experiencing the same thing I heard when I auditioned the RTI A5's, 7's, and 9's. The 5's sounded great powered by the upper mid-level AVR I demoed them on, may have been Denon, but can't really remember. As the woofers were added to the speakers, they became increasingly muddier. Simply not enough power.

    Even at low volumes, the AVR can only do what it can do. It just can't produce the current necessary to drive the woofers properly. Those woofers are probably using 2/3, or more, of the available power being sent to those speakers. Really should be talking about current, but power will suffice.

    You may try different EQ settings on your AVR, but my guess is you need an amp.
  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    If you want to hear what your speakers are capable of, then you need to invest in a separate amplifier. You are asking your Denon to do too much with not enough power.

    Get a 5 channel amp of at least 200wpc @ 8ohms and be prepared to be amazed at the difference.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,032
    The Denon avr3805 is a very weak receiver. This is when Denon really went down hill. I suggest getting rid of it and getting something else. Even with a external amp, you will have no dynamic range as the Denon is basically a dead sounding unit.
    I know all about the AVR3805 , I had one in my system for a very short time. I worked with it when it first came out and really was let down by its overall internal amps performance.
    There are so many much better receiver's out there that can easily power your system and sound wonderful. I can provide a list of what to look at if your interested.
    Running all your speakers in small will yield the best results when using a AVR, even powering the RTi12's, most higher end receivers will have no issues or run out of gas trying to push them. Most of the power is used when you start trying to drive low frequencies which is where you need more power.
    So really depending on your goals , I can help you build a system that would provide much better synergy.
    The suggestion to add an amp is always a good idea just not with your receiver as a preamp.

    So now lets talk about the Speakers themselves. I never heard the RTi8's outperform the RTi12's. I'm thinking you might have a damaged crossover and or your speaker's might be wired out of phase.
    So here is a little trouble shooting thing you can do with the 12's to see if the phase is right.
    Run your speaker wires backwards meaning go positive to negative and negative to positive. So just switch the leads coming from the receiver and re listen to them. If you get a much better sounding mid range , then my friend you have mis wired speakers or out of phase. This happens from time to time as I have found a few speakers over the years wired incorrectly.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • B Run
    B Run Posts: 1,888
    edited March 2015
    I went from the Rti8 to Rti12 and it was an absolute night and day improvement, something definitely is not right. Not to state the obvious but you do have the jumpers installed right? I literally demoed a pair of speakers and all I heard was bass, the guy had no jumpers and had never properly hooked them up.
  • cnjvh
    cnjvh Posts: 253
    Wow thank you all for all the helpful input...really appreciate it. Let me address you comments as best I can:

    Jumpers: In place. The mids and tweeters in both Rti12's are working at about the same capacity as far as I can tell. If the jumpers were not in place, they would not work at all. Also can visually see they are connected and the nuts are tight.

    Phase: Reversing the phase yields much worse results. Plus I get no phase errors when running auto setup so I believe they are phased correctly.

    Crossovers: If there is a bad crossover it would seem both Rti12's have failed or degraded in the same way as they seem to perform equally...just not at the level of the 8's. Or can they just degrade evenly over time?

    This seems to leave power as the problem. I had assumed that since I was running them as small it would not be an issue but it seems to not be the case. A new AVR is on the roadmap as I'm looking to upgrade to Atmos capability in the fall. So please do recommend so brands that could drive the 12's.

    A new amp and a new AVR would not be in the budget so Id rather just go for a premium AVR.

    Thanks again everyone...I appreciate your time with this.
    No earth robot is going to tell ME which button to press!!

    --Stuff--
    Front: Polk Audio RTi12
    Center: Polk Audio CSi5
    Surrounds: Polk Audio RTi8 (x4)
    Sub: SVS PB10-ISD (Dual)
    AVR: Denon AVR-3805
    Blu-Ray: Panasonic BD30
    Display: Sony KDL-55NX720B
    STB: Xfinity X1DVR
  • B Run
    B Run Posts: 1,888
    I drive mine with a Pioneer Elite SC-35 and am really happy with the results. Yeah it wouldn't hurt to have an external amp to really get them to shine but it handles them just fine for what I need and sounds great for HT.
  • txcoastal1
    txcoastal1 Posts: 13,124
    Stop take a breath
    1) The Denon has pre-outs which enables you to integrate an amp and keep the receiver....just get a 2 channel amp for the front RTi12's and take the load off the receiver

    2) There is not a AVreceiver out there that will do the system justice i.e. the Rti12's plus the surround speakers load.

    3) I don't see a dedicated sub woofer in your description so you would set the speakers to large without a crossover setting...and run your RTi12's or all speakers at full range

    You have a nice set up just needs to be tweeked
    2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
    Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
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    erat interfectorem cesar et **** dictatorem dicere a
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,711
    To add.......the woofers are not cut off razor sharp at 80Hz when set to small. It's a gradual roll off, so they still suck up power to a degree.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • Inspector 24
    Inspector 24 Posts: 1,308
    For amps look for Parasound, Adcom, Acurus, B&K, Emotiva and Parasound.

    Did I mention Parasound? There's a nice one for sale in the classifieds right now. ;)

    Whaver you get, go for at least 200wpc to maximize them. Anything over that is icing on the cake.
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  • cnjvh
    cnjvh Posts: 253
    txcoastal1 wrote: »
    Stop take a breath
    1) The Denon has pre-outs which enables you to integrate an amp and keep the receiver....just get a 2 channel amp for the front RTi12's and take the load off the receiver

    2) There is not a AVreceiver out there that will do the system justice i.e. the Rti12's plus the surround speakers load.

    3) I don't see a dedicated sub woofer in your description so you would set the speakers to large without a crossover setting...and run your RTi12's or all speakers at full range

    You have a nice set up just needs to be tweeked

    Sorry, I did omit the sub information. I run dual SVS PB10 subs so that why I run all speakers as small. The only reason I bought such large mains is I sometimes like to go to pure direct for two channel listening. Which clearly exacerbates the lack of power problem.

    The AVR is going to be replaced anyway because of the Atmos upgrade I want do do. A good plan might be to get the most robust one I can. If that doesnt solve the problem to my satisfaction, I can add the amp. In the mean time, EQ I suppose.
    No earth robot is going to tell ME which button to press!!

    --Stuff--
    Front: Polk Audio RTi12
    Center: Polk Audio CSi5
    Surrounds: Polk Audio RTi8 (x4)
    Sub: SVS PB10-ISD (Dual)
    AVR: Denon AVR-3805
    Blu-Ray: Panasonic BD30
    Display: Sony KDL-55NX720B
    STB: Xfinity X1DVR
  • cnjvh
    cnjvh Posts: 253
    F1nut wrote: »
    To add.......the woofers are not cut off razor sharp at 80Hz when set to small. It's a gradual roll off, so they still suck up power to a degree.

    Which would explain why running them as small is not solving the issue? There's still enough demand on the woofers to run the amp out of power?

    Just curious, if the RTi12's have a sensitivity of 90db (same as the 8's), why does power problem not apply to the 8's as well?

    No earth robot is going to tell ME which button to press!!

    --Stuff--
    Front: Polk Audio RTi12
    Center: Polk Audio CSi5
    Surrounds: Polk Audio RTi8 (x4)
    Sub: SVS PB10-ISD (Dual)
    AVR: Denon AVR-3805
    Blu-Ray: Panasonic BD30
    Display: Sony KDL-55NX720B
    STB: Xfinity X1DVR
  • Nightfall
    Nightfall Posts: 10,042
    Three more woofers, right? So six more total?
    afterburnt wrote: »
    They didn't speak a word of English, they were from South Carolina.

    Village Idiot of Club Polk
  • cnjvh
    cnjvh Posts: 253
    Yes, three more per speaker. But they all work together to create that 90db, don't they? Whether its 2 or 5?

    I was drunk during physics class....
    No earth robot is going to tell ME which button to press!!

    --Stuff--
    Front: Polk Audio RTi12
    Center: Polk Audio CSi5
    Surrounds: Polk Audio RTi8 (x4)
    Sub: SVS PB10-ISD (Dual)
    AVR: Denon AVR-3805
    Blu-Ray: Panasonic BD30
    Display: Sony KDL-55NX720B
    STB: Xfinity X1DVR
  • cnjvh
    cnjvh Posts: 253
    Ahh, I think I found my own answer. It seems sensitivity is measured using a small selection of midrange frequencies. If they measured sensitivity at 60hz or so the RTi12 would like come in a fair bit less sensitive since those woofers would be active.
    No earth robot is going to tell ME which button to press!!

    --Stuff--
    Front: Polk Audio RTi12
    Center: Polk Audio CSi5
    Surrounds: Polk Audio RTi8 (x4)
    Sub: SVS PB10-ISD (Dual)
    AVR: Denon AVR-3805
    Blu-Ray: Panasonic BD30
    Display: Sony KDL-55NX720B
    STB: Xfinity X1DVR
  • cascius
    cascius Posts: 175
    Here's something i noticed on my setup: i have a vsx1121k, a carver amp, and monitor 70s as fronts. I was not pleased with the 70s while playing music. Then I realized that my EQ settings were the culprit. Have you tried turning those off? With pioneer it's called Pure Direct mode.

    Might be worth a try, but i do agree that this avr is a bit weak to power those speakers.
    Another idea: disconnect all speakers but the 12s and see if it sounds better.
    Main System:
    Front: SDA 2ATLs
    Center: CS2
    Surround: M40s
    Sub: PSW505
    Receiver: Pioneer VSX-1121k
    Amp: Carver AV 705x
    TV: Samsung LN52A650
    Media Player: Chromecast/Boxee Box
    BD Player: Sony BDP-S470
    Consoles: Xbox360, Wii U
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,903
    For 2 channel listening, make sure you have them set to large, not small, no subs....so tell the receiver that unless it automatically cancels the subs out in pure direct 2 channel mode. Bring your speaker levels to 0 if not already. Even then that receiver is fairly weak to be driving them but you should be able to get some better sound than what your reporting.
    HT SYSTEM-
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  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,785
    edited March 2015
    There is many design differences between the RTi8 and RTi12 which would posit, significant differences in sound. The RTi 12 uses a D'appolito configuration which is done primarily make a loudspeaker less directional by blending the tweeter's output between two midrange drivers. Also the RTi 12 uses the "Cascade Tapered Array" crossover which prevents the cancelling of hz's as they combine with waves of other drivers. In addition the 12's tweeter and mid range drivers are in there own sealed enclosure whereas the 8's are not. I believe the 12's to be much more accurate speaker, as a result of the tech, and the 8's likely to be more bright. Depending on your room the 8's could very well sound better to you, as many times a bright speaker can sound better at lower volume levels because the details are exaggerated or more present, especially with sub par amplification . The RTi12 being the more accurate of the two has a very flat hz response and can sound, well flat at lower volumes. However, good amplification allows the natural dynamics of the music to be reproduced more closely to the way it was intended through the 12's at lower volumes. In general at louder levels, with quality amplification the 12's will most definitely outperform the 8s. There isn't anything really wrong with your 12's except for a lack of synergy with your other gear. The 8's being inherently more bright is providing a bandaid fix for the less than stellar performance of your AVR. I will also add that the RTi12's respond almost as much to a quality source, as they do to a good amp. I do not know what you are playing your music from, but if it a typical Bluray or dvd player, that may well be your problem. Try a quality cd player, with an analog out or flac through a decent streaming box, and you might notice the 12's coming alive.
    Good Luck.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • cnjvh
    cnjvh Posts: 253
    So many helpful posts...thx again everyone.

    Regarding Pure Direct mode, yes my AVR completely bypasses all bass management and in fact turns off all extraneous circuitry (such as the front panel) while in this mode so the 12's will definitely be running as large.

    Based on the number of responses suggesting more power, I have accepted that this will need to happen in one form or another to get the most out of these speakers.

    However, I question whether it will solve all my concerns. Having been mulling this problem over in my head, I arrived at a theory which pretty much matches what jeremymarcinko posted above. The 8's and 12's are just too different.

    To clarify some of the terms in my initial complaints, I used the word "detail" to describe an increased presence of mid/treble frequencies (which expose subtle things like raindrops in a rainstorm scene of very light cymbal brushes or taps in music - more detail).

    I used the word "soundstage" to describe the seamless matching of sound between the center channel and the mains. To be clear, the 12's image very nicely. In 2 channel mode, you would swear sounds that are centered in the mix are coming from the center channel even though it's not even active. Things are placed very nicely, it's just that the center channel is a beacon of sound in the front, overwhelming the 12's, even after setting levels with an SPL meter.

    So going by my use of those terms, the 12's can never have the "detail" of the 8's or present a good "soundstage" with the CSi5, and here's my theory as to why.

    It seems to me that each watt an RTi8 or CSi5 receives is divided between two midrange drivers and a tweeter. 100% of the power is going to speakers that are more suited to creating mid/high end tones (I know it may not divide exactly this way and it's oversimplifying how the power is distributed but the theory is the same).

    Each watt the Rti12 receives is divided across 6 drivers, only 3 of which are suited for creating mid/high end detail. So the mid/high range drivers are only getting 50% of the power as opposed to 100% in the 8's or CSi5's.

    Looking at just the tweeter, the tweeter in an Rti8 or CSi5 receives 33% of the power. the tweeter in an RTi12 receives only 16.66% of the power. Again, I may have a complete misunderstanding of how the power gets divided but the theory seems sound.

    Taken from this perspective, they can never have the detail (as I describe it) or create a seamless soundstage when run along side with the 8's and the CSi5 (no matter how much power they are given) even though they have the same sensitivity and tweeters (which would lead you to think they are a timbre match).

    So, even though (as jeremymarcinko stated above), they are likely more accurate the the other speakers and - as you all have stated, they will not reach their potential without more power - they just are not a good match with driver arrays in the rest of my system. So this problem may not be entirely solvable.

    So, what to do? I'll will add more power in one way or another and re-evaluate at that time. But until I can do that (and if some level of the problem persists after doing that) I think my only option will be to add some EQ (for movies only to equalize the soundstage a bit). For 2 channel I will continue to use whatever form of direct mode is available to me with the understanding that what I'm hearing is actually the more accurate representation of the music even though the 12's don't sound like the 8's).

    What do you think? Plausible or Busted?
    No earth robot is going to tell ME which button to press!!

    --Stuff--
    Front: Polk Audio RTi12
    Center: Polk Audio CSi5
    Surrounds: Polk Audio RTi8 (x4)
    Sub: SVS PB10-ISD (Dual)
    AVR: Denon AVR-3805
    Blu-Ray: Panasonic BD30
    Display: Sony KDL-55NX720B
    STB: Xfinity X1DVR
  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,785
    I always use an auto EQ for movies to create a seamless sound stage, but never for music which is always two channel for me anyways.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,903
    If the center channel is too in your face, adjust the center channel levels in your menu. Why is a center channel even in the mix for 2 channel though ? Tell me you adjusted the settings manually and didn't just rely on the auto calibration. Sounds to me like something is amiss in your settings.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
  • cnjvh
    cnjvh Posts: 253
    The center channel is not in the mix for 2 channel - 2 channel listening is done in pure direct mode. The imbalance I'm referring to is in 7.1 mode for movies. The levels were set by running auto setup and then adjusting manually with an SPL meter after the fact. The overall levels are not the complaint, its a matter noticeable tonality differences across the front sound stage.

    After I noticed the problem in 7.1 mode, I tried an Rti8 and an Rti12 together in 2 channel mode and noticed the pronounced difference between the two. Which lead to my original post.

    Sorry if I didn't state my process/issues clearly...I'd noticed and tried a bunch of things over the course of a few days and it was difficult to summarize.
    No earth robot is going to tell ME which button to press!!

    --Stuff--
    Front: Polk Audio RTi12
    Center: Polk Audio CSi5
    Surrounds: Polk Audio RTi8 (x4)
    Sub: SVS PB10-ISD (Dual)
    AVR: Denon AVR-3805
    Blu-Ray: Panasonic BD30
    Display: Sony KDL-55NX720B
    STB: Xfinity X1DVR
  • Polkie2009
    Polkie2009 Posts: 3,834
    Thanks for adding the much needed info that you also__ manually set levels with a SPL meter. Gotta agree with others here that you should try a separate power amp (get a good used brand mentioned above for around $300-$400) for the mains, those 12's need to be fed, let those mains breath. Also, recheck the distances the auto eq set to the different speakers, not necessarily to help fix your problem with the front soundstage tonality , but just good to know it's in the ballpark. Sometimes the auto eq has some funky settings,just saying.
  • jeremymarcinko
    jeremymarcinko Posts: 3,785
    I find it odd, because I use the lesser CSi3 as a center, RTi6's as surrounds with my 12's, and after running the auto eq (YPAO) the transition of audio around the room is very natural. I will add that surround mixes are supposed to sound a bit different from each channel and are designed that way. As a vehicle drives past the front stage the tone and level should change somewhat as it transitions to the center speaker and past, just as it would naturally. You should probable use audysseyEq when watching movies if you are not already. How is your center positioned? Beneath the screen, aimed right at you? Be sure there isn't any part of the stand in front of the center for sound to reflect off of, it should be at least flush with the edge.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • scotvl
    scotvl Posts: 88
    edited March 2015
    You need more power to let the 12s do their thing. Try this, hook the avr to only the upper binding post of the Rti12s and run them like this with the sub in 2 channel pure direct mode (you might have to turn on the extra bass setting). Listen to a few familiar songs and see if the mids and highs have come alive and compare them to your Rti8s to see the difference. If you like what you hear in the mid range then an amp should solve your problems, if not then you should sell the 12s and still get an amp to really let those 8s sing on their own.
    I was running my A9s off of my Pioneer sc-1227 avr only and they sounded great compared to what I had before but hearing what everyone said about the Rtia9s and Rti12s needing power to fully come alive I decided to add an amp that I could afford. I bought a crown X2000 and run the 3 woofers off of it and the mids and tweeter off of my avr (I know passive Bi amping is a no no but it sounds great to me).
    Now that the Avr is supplying 125w to the uppers and the woofer are getting 330w to themselves (minus whatever the crossovers are eating up due to bi amping) they have a much richer sound with thick luscious mid range and deep punchy bass even at lower volumes. If you could afford it Inspector 24s Parasound would make those 12s sound even better than my Frankenstein setup, either way those 6 extra drivers need a lot more power.
  • cnjvh
    cnjvh Posts: 253
    I find it odd, because I use the lesser CSi3 as a center, RTi6's as surrounds with my 12's, and after running the auto eq (YPAO) the transition of audio around the room is very natural. I will add that surround mixes are supposed to sound a bit different from each channel and are designed that way. As a vehicle drives past the front stage the tone and level should change somewhat as it transitions to the center speaker and past, just as it would naturally. You should probable use audysseyEq when watching movies if you are not already. How is your center positioned? Beneath the screen, aimed right at you? Be sure there isn't any part of the stand in front of the center for sound to reflect off of, it should be at least flush with the edge.

    Center is above the TV, sitting on the bridge between the two towers of the entertainment unit. It is as close to the front edge as safely possible and I use the built in kickstand to angle it down towards the listening position. Center sounds great actually. Just a noticeable difference in detail between it and the 12's (which I think we've nearly sorted out with this discussion).
    No earth robot is going to tell ME which button to press!!

    --Stuff--
    Front: Polk Audio RTi12
    Center: Polk Audio CSi5
    Surrounds: Polk Audio RTi8 (x4)
    Sub: SVS PB10-ISD (Dual)
    AVR: Denon AVR-3805
    Blu-Ray: Panasonic BD30
    Display: Sony KDL-55NX720B
    STB: Xfinity X1DVR
  • cnjvh
    cnjvh Posts: 253
    scotvl wrote: »
    You need more power to let the 12s do their thing. Try this, hook the avr to only the upper binding post of the Rti12s and run them like this with the sub in 2 channel pure direct mode (you might have to turn on the extra bass setting). Listen to a few familiar songs and see if the mids and highs have come alive and compare them to your Rti8s to see the difference. If you like what you hear in the mid range then an amp should solve your problems, if not then you should sell the 12s and still get an amp to really let those 8s sing on their own..

    Great idea to try. Which speakers in the 12's are connected to the top post? Just the mids and tweeter I presume? And I think I read it's crossed over at 120?

    No earth robot is going to tell ME which button to press!!

    --Stuff--
    Front: Polk Audio RTi12
    Center: Polk Audio CSi5
    Surrounds: Polk Audio RTi8 (x4)
    Sub: SVS PB10-ISD (Dual)
    AVR: Denon AVR-3805
    Blu-Ray: Panasonic BD30
    Display: Sony KDL-55NX720B
    STB: Xfinity X1DVR
  • trav0810
    trav0810 Posts: 1,056
    I ran a pair of RTi12 fronts and RTi8 rears off of a Yamaha receiver and was not impressed, once I added an amp for the fronts, it was a whole new creature. Those 12's actually need some juice to come alive, but with the right power, they will open up.
    The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits.” -Albert Einstein

    Sony Playstation 3 for CD and Streaming
    Thorens TD320
    Modified Carver C-1
    Carver TFM 42 and 45 Amplifiers
    Polk RTA15TL Speakers w/Decato mods
    White Lightning Moonshine DIY Speaker Cables and Interconnects
  • cnjvh
    cnjvh Posts: 253
    Completed the experiment with an Rti8 on one channel and just the top connector to an RTi12 on the other. The difference is still there but the amount of difference varies all based on the type of music. I had about an hour to throw some different styles at it. With some old R and B and smooth jazz there is virtually no difference between the two in the mid/high end and the sound was balanced. With hard rock (where the predominant instrument is an aggressive mid range tone) it is pronounced and the RTi8 overwhelmed the 12. There is a small window of frequencies in play here. I find I like the 12's better for some styles and the 8's for others.

    What I think I've learned:

    There's nothing wrong with my gear

    My assumption that the speakers should match in sound because they are of the same series and have the same tweeter was false.

    My assumption that running the 12's as small would mean I wouldn't need me power was false.

    I need to withhold final final judgement on the situation until I can try the 12's with proper power.

    Thanks alot for all of your help and input everyone. You've all really helped me think through this problem and decide how to proceed.
    No earth robot is going to tell ME which button to press!!

    --Stuff--
    Front: Polk Audio RTi12
    Center: Polk Audio CSi5
    Surrounds: Polk Audio RTi8 (x4)
    Sub: SVS PB10-ISD (Dual)
    AVR: Denon AVR-3805
    Blu-Ray: Panasonic BD30
    Display: Sony KDL-55NX720B
    STB: Xfinity X1DVR
  • trj
    trj Posts: 320
    Try giving everything your receiver has got to one rti12:
    disconnect all other channels and run a single rti12 and check if there is any change(good change) in sound. If there is then you have power problem, if not then your speaker is likely faulty.
    Sony BDP-S6500 | Raspberry Pi 2 | XBOX One S | Wii --> Yamaha RX-V667 --> Adcom 5006 bridged to 175 watts for front LCR -- >Front: Polk Audio RTi8s | Center: CSi5 | Side Surrounds: RTi4s | Rear surrounds: FXiA4s | Cheap 12" sub woofer|Samsung UN60KU6300
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,032
    I suggest you take a strong look at the new Pioneer Elite models if you want to go Atmos and don't want to add a separate amp which I don't think you need if you go with an Elite AVR.
    Personally I currently own a SC-68 which I had for a few years now and it's a total beast. It powers my system well beyond what I need it to do as far as dynamics and sheer output volume. The New D3 amps are an improvement over the older SC models . They don't seem to ever run out of gas or lose composure.
    The SC-89 is what I'm thinking of upgrading to as it has the new new Sabre DAC's built in and not to mention I use the Built in USB DAC which is still to me one of the most incredible features I've seen on any AVR or preamp for that matter.
    Amos does come to play in the SC-85 SC-87 so take a look there as well if the $3000.00 price point isn't in your budget. For what you get with the SC-89 , the price is not un fair at all.
    I'm still not convinced that something might be wrong with your RTi12's. They might have bad Crossovers or at least damaged. It wouldn't be a bad idea to get a fresh set from Polk and replace them to see if anything changes in the way they sound.
    I have seen speakers both of them get damaged many times. Usually follows blown Tweeters and drivers. This usually happens due to under powering. Most will want to crank up the volume only to destroy their speakers due to distortion and lack of Dampening factor and power.

    Good luck with your issue.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.