Digital or DTS?

stott281stott281 Posts: 18
edited March 2002 in Technical/Setup
I have a set of Polm RM6000's and a Yamaha Receiver. Everything sounds great but I am not sure about one thing. My receiver automatically detects the type of input that is coming in and sets itself up accordingly. A lot of DVD's I watch give me a choice of DOlby Digital or DTS 5.1. I have tried both and cannot really tell the difference nor do I know what the difference really is. Is one better than the other? I can really tell the difference between Pro Logic and Digital, but not between Digital and DTS. Any info is appreciated. Thanks!
Post edited by stott281 on

Comments

  • schumachschumach Posts: 199
    edited March 2002
    Check out this link.

    http://www.audiolinks.nl/

    Greg
    Fronts: Polk RT1000p
    Center: Polk CS400i
    Rears: Polk F/X300i
    Receiver: HK AVR500
    DVD: HK DVD50
    TV: Sony 36" Wega

    Greg
  • lax01lax01 Posts: 496
    edited March 2002
    Alright basic knowledge:

    Dolby Digital 5.1 is a digital surround format with up to 7 discrete channels of information. This is probably what most DVDs come with. Dolby Digital EX (which your receiver cannot decode) is the "new" Dolby format which is an extension of Dolby Digital 5.1 but with one extra channel matrixed to two speakers in the rear. Usually mid to high a/v receivers and digital processors carry this format.

    DTS 5.1 is another digital surround format with up to 7 discrete channels of information. Many new DVDs are coming out with this format now. Up until now, mostly special DVDs had dts, but it is becoming more mainstream now. DTS-ES is dts answer to Dolby EX. It is 6.1, where there is a rear center channel (the extra 1).

    Dolby Pro Logic has 2 discrete channels of information which is matrixed to form 4 matrixed channels. Resulting is simulated surround sound. TV shows, and old LD and DVDs have this.

    Need anymore information?
    J B
  • stott281stott281 Posts: 18
    edited March 2002
    Thanks for the info. Any opinions on which is better or is it just left up to personal preference?
  • ChrisDuranoChrisDurano Posts: 372
    edited March 2002
    I believe its all preference. I personally can't tell any difference either. I do like the beginning of the movies with DTS though....with the piano....it impresses you're guests. But if anyone can clearly show me a difference between the two based on a movie....please let me know.
    Home Speakers polkaudio RTi70's (bi-wired), CSi30, FX3000i, PSW250

    Car speakers polkaudio EX 369, DB 650
  • juice21juice21 Posts: 1,866
    edited March 2002
    Originally posted by stott281
    Thanks for the info. Any opinions on which is better or is it just left up to personal preference?

    like anything in this hobby, it's personal preference...
    ...the fOrce is strong with this one.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,317
    edited March 2002
    Dts and Dolby Digital......good.
    Bith sound really good.But hear is the difference.
    Dts the rears seem to play about 2 to 3 db louder.The sub about 3 to 4 db louder.The front's and center don't seem any different.I have played with this since DtS first came out.I used to own a Yamaha rxv992 which didn't have Dts,but then I got a Pioneer Elite vsx26tx,and then I went crazy buying everything that came out with DTS.I own hundred's of DvD's most are in dolby digital,alot with DTs, and some that does both.I have tested and Tested(I do that because there's something wrong with me)and I personally like Dolby Digital over DTS.I just don't like boosted up rears and sub.Dolby Digital to me seems more nature on my system then DTs does.
    I got the Pioneer Elite vsx26tx out and bought the Denon avr3801 ,I wanted to get into the 6.1/7.1(if you count both mono surround backs)and It's not that great,only a couple of movies are in 6.1.I wish more movies were in6.1 so I could start testing the hell out of that,but there's onlt a couple and I own them all except chicken run.
    Dan
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • lax01lax01 Posts: 496
    edited March 2002
    It is all personal preference. I perfer dts in most situations though.
    J B
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,492
    edited March 2002
    The main difference between DTS and DD is that DTS uses less compression in the signal, which provides more dynamic range and can provide more detail. So actually, since the DTS signal is less compressed, you are hearing a soundtrack that is closer to the original studio recording. As to whether you'll hear a significant difference, it depends on your equipment (and your hearing).

    I prefer DTS.:D
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
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  • TheGrayGhostTheGrayGhost Posts: 196
    edited March 2002
    ”Dolby Digital 5.1 is a digital surround format with up to 7 discrete channels of information.”

    This is an incorrect statement. Only DTS ES (Extended Surround) provides for a discrete rear center channel.

    From Dolby Labs;

    “With respect to soundtracks, such as those on movies and DVDs, 5.1 means that the soundtracks are recorded with five main channels: left, center, right, left surround, and right surround, plus a low-frequency effects (LFE) bass channel (called a ".1" channel because it covers only a fraction of the frequency range of the main channels).

    Some movie soundtracks use a variation on 5.1 called Dolby Digital Surround EX, which has now migrated via DVDs to home theater. This format matrix encodes a third surround channel onto the left and right surround channels of 5.1 soundtracks, and may be decoded or not at the cinema’s or home listener’s option due to their inherent compatibility. Because the extra surround information is carried on the left and right surround channels, Dolby Digital Surround EX encoded soundtracks are still regarded as 5.1 soundtracks.”

    From DTS Online;

    “DTS-ES represents the world’s first 6.1-channel Discrete Surround format, expanding upon 5.1 surround, by adding a dedicated center surround channel. A new DTS-ES receiver will be required, to experience a discrete 6.1-channel mix. At the same time, all DTS-ES discs will be fully compatible with 6.1 Matrix decoders, and 5.1 Digital Surround.”
    Best Regards, Cliff
  • lax01lax01 Posts: 496
    edited March 2002
    Up to 7 channels: I was under the impression that the 6 channel (one left, right, center, right surround, left surround, rear surround) in Dolby EX was matrixed into two stereo pairs insteads of one discrete rear center channel like in DTS-ES 6.1. This made it so that the stereo image sounded like it came from behind you and not from in front of you, which has be known to happen with DTS-ES.

    raife1: DTS also uses a different kind of compression. Dolby Digital uses loseless compression and Dolby adds their own specifications like DialNorm (dialog normalization). While DTS doesn't use these at all.
    J B
  • TheGrayGhostTheGrayGhost Posts: 196
    edited March 2002
    ”I was under the impression that the 6 channel (one left, right, center, right surround, left surround, rear surround) in Dolby EX was matrixed into two stereo pairs insteads of one discrete rear center channel like in DTS-ES 6.1.”

    Nope, the rear center channel for DD is matrixed in the L/R surrounds in the same manner as the older DTS 5.1 ES was. For example T2 is DTS 5.1 ES and Gladiator is DTS 6.1 ES.

    ”Dolby Digital uses loseless compression”

    Wrong again. From the Dolby Labs FAQ;

    “Dolby Digital and DTS are similar in that they are both digital lossy audio coding technologies, which means they use “perceptual” data reduction techniques that are based on the characteristics of human hearing to mask the process, thereby preserving high fidelity sound. This is necessary in order to fit the typical 5.1-channel bitstream into a given storage space or transmission bandwidth.”

    Perhaps you’re thinking of MLP that Dolby Labs has licensed for audio compression of DVD-Audio.
    Best Regards, Cliff
  • hamzahshhamzahsh Posts: 439
    edited March 2002
    "Comon guys stop this Dolby Digital vs. DTS war", both sound formats are great and both have pros and cons. I personally love Dolby Digital over DTS but I also like DTS. There are many reasons 'cause I've watched many movies in theaters and at home on dvds and most of them were in Dolby Digital and the best thing I love about it the .LFE channel which is always powerful and chest pounding. I'm a bass lover and it always blow my mind. Whereas, DTS has a weaker .LFE not as powerful as Dolby Digital.

    DTS sounds like a CD sound where Dolby Digital is more like a movie sound delivers enough detail uses a dialogue normalization feature which keeps the center channel at low decibals. The reason is 'cause special effects are meant for loudness and that's why whenever the action comes the sound gets louder so you can differenciate between them. DTS doesn't use this feature at all and drive all channels at same number of decibels. DTS is +6 db louder than Dolby. Dolby recommends to add +3 db in surround channels to all consumer products and cut -3 db from theatre products to hear surround channels completely.

    I'm not making up this information. I read several articles both at Dolby and DTS website and there were both against of each other like PEPSI vs. COCA-COLA. I have added +3 db in surround channels and it does make a hell of a difference and sounds way better. Try it and you'll hear a difference.

    Last month, I watched LOTR: FOTR in theater and it was presented in Dolby Digital Surround EX and the sound was just breathtaking and chest pounding. The subwoofer really shook the theater and I was all the way up sitting in the last row feeling the vibrations under my seat. I said WOW! in my heart and I love Dolby.

    Dolby is a movie standard and old as 30 years. It is everywhere all around the world. Theaters, DVDs & LDs, HDTV & Satellite Broadcasts, Game Consoles, Home Theaters, Car Audio, PC sound cards, Headphones etc,.

    Dolby's technology is very advanced!



    :D
    Panasonic TH-50PX80U Plasma HDTV
    Polk Audio RT800i (fronts)
    Polk Audio CS400i (center)
    Polk Audio F/X1000 (side surrounds)
    Polk Audio RTi6 (back surrrounds)
    Velodyne CHT-15 (subwoofer)
    Yamaha RX-V1400 (Pre/Pro)
    NAD C272 (2-ch Amp)
    Adcom GFA-7605 (5-ch Amp)
    Toshiba SD-3109 (DVD/CD player)
    Malata DVP-580 (Multi-region DVD player)
  • hamzahshhamzahsh Posts: 439
    edited March 2002
    I'm agree with lax01. Dolby Digital Surround EX is a 6.1 soundtrack but it is encoded in 5.1 channels where center surround channel is encoded in L/R channels. Dolby did this because of compatibility issues because many theaters around the world still not fully equipped with Dolby Digital Surround EX processor which uses THX-EX ultra 2 processing. To solve this matter Dolby decided for backward compatibility method of using 5.1 channel mixing so the center surround channel can extract through L/R surround channels.

    On the other hand if the theater is fully equipped with new processor then the center surround channel can be extract through back surround speakers in discreate form. This process is known as THX-EX ULTRA 2 processing. Those who own THX Ultra 2 certified A/V receivers can take advantage of Dolby Digital Surround EX soundtrack in discreate form. Star Wars: Phantom Menace and up movies center surround channels can be extracted in decreate form using 2 back surround speakers.

    DTS has two versions DTS-ES 6.1 discreate and DTS-ES matrix but Dolby has only one which is DOLBY DIGITAL SURROUND EX! which has a backward compatibility.

    Dolby is amazing and the king of the movie sound!
    They really think.
    Panasonic TH-50PX80U Plasma HDTV
    Polk Audio RT800i (fronts)
    Polk Audio CS400i (center)
    Polk Audio F/X1000 (side surrounds)
    Polk Audio RTi6 (back surrrounds)
    Velodyne CHT-15 (subwoofer)
    Yamaha RX-V1400 (Pre/Pro)
    NAD C272 (2-ch Amp)
    Adcom GFA-7605 (5-ch Amp)
    Toshiba SD-3109 (DVD/CD player)
    Malata DVP-580 (Multi-region DVD player)
  • TheGrayGhostTheGrayGhost Posts: 196
    edited March 2002
    ”"Comon guys stop this Dolby Digital vs. DTS war",”

    LOL, that is really funny considering everything you posted after.
    Best Regards, Cliff
  • ntculenuffntculenuff Posts: 1,155
    edited March 2002
    no matter what, they both are a hell of a lot better than dolby pro logic !!!!!
    Speakers:
    Definitive BP7001sc mains
    Definitive C/L/R 3000 center
    Polk RT800i's rears
    Definitive supercube I Sub
    Audio:
    Onkyo TX-NR3010
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    OPPO BDP-103 CD, SACD, DVD-A
    Video:
    Panasonic TC-P65ZT60
    OPPO BDP-103 Bluray
    Directv x's 2
  • lax01lax01 Posts: 496
    edited March 2002
    TheGrayGhost, I was thinking that same thing just after reading his posts. If anything, we weren't have a war, we were merely discussing how the 2 formats are different. And whoever told you that Dolby Digital has a stronger LFE than dts was seriously mistaken. And, btw, DialNorm is a very beneficial thing when used correctly. When it is not, the end product sounds absolutely horrible.
    J B
  • hamzahshhamzahsh Posts: 439
    edited March 2002
    Yes, TheGaryGhost it is funny 'cause not just my post says but there are articles which is about these 2 formats says, Dolby Digital vs. DTS. The funniest thing I found that there is a forum for it. I like DTS but I love Dolby Digital.

    lax01 Dolby Digital has stronger .LFE 'cause I have watched movies both in DD and DTS. DD has a better punch. Dolby's .LFE is always powerful. DTS bass is not as deep. No way!
    Panasonic TH-50PX80U Plasma HDTV
    Polk Audio RT800i (fronts)
    Polk Audio CS400i (center)
    Polk Audio F/X1000 (side surrounds)
    Polk Audio RTi6 (back surrrounds)
    Velodyne CHT-15 (subwoofer)
    Yamaha RX-V1400 (Pre/Pro)
    NAD C272 (2-ch Amp)
    Adcom GFA-7605 (5-ch Amp)
    Toshiba SD-3109 (DVD/CD player)
    Malata DVP-580 (Multi-region DVD player)
  • TheGrayGhostTheGrayGhost Posts: 196
    edited March 2002
    ”lax01 Dolby Digital has stronger .LFE 'cause I have watched movies both in DD and DTS. DD has a better punch. Dolby's .LFE is always powerful. DTS bass is not as deep. No way!”

    That is only because you don’t understand the specification for both decoder systems.

    The Dolby Digital (AC-3) specification requires the decoder to boost the LFE channel by +10dBFS to make the otherwise weak AC-3 LFE overdrive the sub to a level of 115dB-SPL for the loudest LFE recorded sound while all other channels peak at 105dB-SPL.

    DTS decoding balances the output of all channels including the LFE to be consistent with normal settings for stereo w/subwoofer and multi-channel DVD-Audio.
    Best Regards, Cliff
  • danger boydanger boy Posts: 15,888
    edited March 2002
    I like DTS, and it sounds better on my system than DD. Not that DD is bad or sounds crummy. both sound good. but DTS has a better and deeper sound field i think. Is DTS better than DD. nope!
    I just wish ALL DVD's gave you the option of DTS or DD.
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
  • IntegraIntegra Posts: 14
    edited March 2002
    DTS=Less Compression=Better Quality. End of Disscussion!:D
  • lax01lax01 Posts: 496
    edited March 2002
    Integra, that isn't entirely true. Just because a certain DVD has a higher bitrate doesn't mean it will ultimately sound better. Have you ever watched The Matrix? Have you ever seen Heat? Have you ever seen Blade? Those have awesome Dolby Digital soundtracks which IMHO, sound better than some of the recent release of dts DVDs (ala the Muskeeter). So just because one has a higer bitrate doesn't mean that the sound quality will be better.;)
    J B
  • hamzahshhamzahsh Posts: 439
    edited March 2002
    Yep, I'm agree with lax01.

    Have you ever watched "The Fugitive" and "Assasins". These are of the best Dolby Digital 5.1 dvds.
    Panasonic TH-50PX80U Plasma HDTV
    Polk Audio RT800i (fronts)
    Polk Audio CS400i (center)
    Polk Audio F/X1000 (side surrounds)
    Polk Audio RTi6 (back surrrounds)
    Velodyne CHT-15 (subwoofer)
    Yamaha RX-V1400 (Pre/Pro)
    NAD C272 (2-ch Amp)
    Adcom GFA-7605 (5-ch Amp)
    Toshiba SD-3109 (DVD/CD player)
    Malata DVP-580 (Multi-region DVD player)
  • mhetmanmhetman Posts: 25
    edited March 2002
    With all this talk of discrete and matrix back channel info, does anyone know how DTS-ES 6.1 gets the discrete 6th channel sound. In the matrix systems, the info for the center back channel is mixed in both L and R rear channels. It maybe mixed in an out of phase manner allowing easier separation to derive the center channel. However, the disadvantage of this is some of the rear channel sound still remains in the L and R rear channels hence the difference in channel separation maybe small like 3-6db. A discrete system like that done using frequency modulation would have maybe 15-30 db difference in separation, hence a center channel would be truly discrete. How is DTS 6.1 ES able to claim this back channel as discrete? What method do they use to develope this back channel that allows a great enough separation to provide a totally different sound in the rear center channel from the two real side channels? Or is this all just hipe?

    I have a 6.1 system setup and although I enjoy the added rear back channels, I haven't yet heard a source that provides me convincing discrete rear channel audio. This includes discrete DTS 6.1 ES sources such as Bones, The Haunting, Gladiator, Evil Dead and Se7en. I also have the music CD of "Globe Sessions" by Cheryl Crow which is also DTS 6.1 ES. None of the above DVD's or CD's demonstrate to me a truly discrete rear center channel sound. I understand this could be intentional and the reason I can not hear it. Perhaps there is a demo disk that will demonstrate the discreteness of DTS 6.1 ES....
  • scottvampscottvamp Posts: 3,297
    edited March 2002
    mhetman,
    How is DTS 6.1 ES able to claim this back channel as discrete?
    Because it IS a discrete channel layed from the DVD's that incorporate it. Just as 5.1 is. Do I notice this with the movies you mentioned?
    YES
    But it is still a fairly new format and DVD "company's" have really not gone out of there way to utilize it. It takes $ and extra effort to just apeal to a small 6.1 crowd. It is like you say not very noticeable as a discret channel but I think in time it will get better.
    Personally I could never go back to 5.1 again. I listen to every movie in 6.1 even if it is only matixed. And as for as db diffences, that is easily fixed to your personal pref. but adjusting your recievers settings. My audio essentail setup disc clearly shows the separation in the rear channel. The popular knife throw in Gladitor also demonstrates a short timespane from rear to sides to frontstage. My setup is absolutly seemless in that scene.:cool:
    PS3 and HD Front Projection, life is good. Too bad Blu-Ray and the PS3 are already obsolete.....:rolleyes:
  • johnnyamerikajohnnyamerika Posts: 382
    edited March 2002
    ehhh.....this is only the 18,000th time this topic has come up...

    :)

    I had the oppotunity to visit the GDC (game developers conference) last week and met with both Dolby and DTS at their respective booths. The DTS guys were warm and receptive, gave me T-shirts, demo disks, and talked about business opportunities. The DD guys were nice too. I was, as always, very impressed by live DTS sound.

    By the by, I asked DTS about the rumors they were lowering their compressions, that's not true. Things may have been getting confused, since they are licensing alot of their lower compression scheme (as you know, they have 2), plus they have a NEW compression scheme for video games, which runs real-time at about 300kb a second. Yay for DTS fans!
  • mhetmanmhetman Posts: 25
    edited March 2002
    Originally posted by scottvamp
    mhetman,
    The popular knife throw in Gladitor also demonstrates a short timespane from rear to sides to frontstage. My setup is absolutly seemless in that scene.:cool:

    Where is that knife scene you are referring to? I would like to check it out...I found the sword throwing scene at 40:35 in the movie. Only through careful replay was I able to confirm it was coming from the rear speaker, to the sides and finally to the front. This is a very small special effect which could easily be overlooked. What I am looking for is more continuous sounds coming from the rear channel as well as side surrounds. "Bones" comes much closer to this and does yield lots of back channel effects.

    Thanks...

    Matt
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