Just received new RTi10's - First Impressions

okay, pulled a little experiment this morning. don't laugh



this is a Realistic STA-84 that I swiped from my Dad back in the early 90's. turned out he swiped it from my uncle at some point. anyway, rated at 25w/channel. and guess what? - the RTi10s sound better from this than from that Pioneer I'm currently using. getting much fuller range out of the speakers at just vol level 3. whew. I was kinda concerned a little yesterday, but everyone's posts were a bit reassuring and informative, so thanks for that. I still need to press on with Tony's suggestions and see about resetting the receiver levels and dropping the sub out of the mix, but I think I'm going to head up to Best Buy this morning and check out some receivers.

HTguru1982 wrote: »

I used to own the RTi10's and loved them. I first ran them off a $1,000 Yamaha RX-V2600, and they sang beautifully. No hint of brightness and a very full mid range. Then my financial situation changed and had to downgrade to a $300 Harman Kardon AVR-135. While maybe not as powerful as the Yamaha(40 watts per channel vs 130), the the Harman drove the RTi10's just fine. I would describe its sound as warm and relaxed. And since I had to get rid of my sub, I ran the speakers large with no sub, and was very surprised at the amount of bass they put out. You're definitely going in the right direction with the RTi10's.

this is good info. I looked up that Yamaha and it looks like it put out some nice power like you said.
I bet that HK did sound good at 40w/ch if I'm liking what I'm hearing at 25w/ch. definitely seeing a lot more movement in the woofers with this setup. I like how they list their ratings. I read that it's all true power, so their ratings seem lower than everyone else's.

tonyb wrote: »

Once you start moving up the chain of speakers, you have to start paying attention to the rest of the chain. What cables are you using, what subwoofer ? A small sub won't cut it with the 10's and neither will Home depot cabling or similar.

Yes, you need some power to make them shine. What your hearing at higher volumes is the receiver running out of gas so turn it down unless you want to fork out for new tweeters.

As an experiment, take the subwoofer out of the mix for a moment. Go in your receivers menu and set them to large and make sure the speaker levels are at 0 or near there. Set subwoofer to "no", or none. Play a cd and see how it sounds.

I might add that placement is going to be more critical too. They need some room to breath so a good 1 foot off a back wall and 2 feet off a side wall should be a starting point. If you still don't like the sound, then one of 2 things is happening. Either they aren't the speakers for you, or they may have been defective or damaged.

wait, 22ga speaker wire isn't good?
kidding, I'm running 16ga. what do you guys recommend for cables?
I presume you're meaning all the interconnects, too, and not just the speaker wire?

re: the placement - yes, good point. after getting them moving a bit more this morning I'm noticing a lot of resonance in my space, so I think this is prob where my room setup and placement is going to come into play a bit. I have a couple of different ideas here.


I still don't really understand how some of these receivers can be rated with higher output and sound so weak. I've been reading intensely for about 3 weeks, but still don't have a solid understanding of how power ratings work or better, how to interpret. it's somewhat misleading, but maybe I'm missing something simple. the only thing that gives me any relatively solid sense of power capability is when I see something like "135w/ch all channels driven" which I only see in the higher end lineup in the standard brands. most of the time it's listed as 1ch or 2ch driven, but I don't really know what that means in terms of capability to move a set of speakers.

when I see a receiver with a 135w/ch rating, how does this compare to an amplifier with a 200wpc rating? it's not really relative, is it? or is it?

Is there any common consensus as to which receivers can provide the warmer sound or is this mostly a function of power output and properly driving the speakers?


guys thanks a lot. I was kinda sweatin' it last night. I've been planning all along for a receiver and/or amp, so it wasn't unexpected, I was just hoping they weren't going to be screaming even with power. but yeah, they were at at least 2/3 max vol

I picked up a receiver yesterday, but my selection may have been a bit premature. Will report more on this later after I've had some time to play with it some. There are some things I'm enjoying and others leaving me with questions. I've been doing quite a bit of research lately, so it wasn't exactly an impulsive decision, just not sure this is quiiiiiiiite the right direction just yet. It does seem significantly better than the previous VSX-521-K, which is no surprise, however still assessing.

So I played around a bit yesterday with this Front-to-Small configuration, and I have a better understanding now of how to properly use a sub to complement a set of floor speakers. I didn't realize that's how this worked - setting fronts to small activates an attached sub, so that was a good read; thanks for that. I read the part you mentioned about multiple sources of low bass. I can say that it muddied things up a bit when I had it set to Plus instead of On w/fronts set to Small.

this statement about crossovers I don't quite understand - what does it mean to be "flat to xx Hz"?
***So, with an 80-Hz crossover point, your speaker should be flat to 40 Hz. Lots of speakers can do this. Only a few speakers are flat to 30 Hz (even though manufacturers’ specs will try to tell you otherwise, there really are only a few, at least within a reasonable price range), and even fewer speakers are flat to 20 Hz (and below) at the levels a home theater will be asking for.***

pearsall001 wrote: »

If you're running the mains as Large & using the Plus setting on the sub then you're getting what is called double bass. That's the last thing you want because now you have bass nodes fighting each other causing a lot of cancellation & a very sloppy sound. Read this article & give it a shot, I think you'll find the end results to your liking. But still those puppies will kick things up a notch with an external amp. http://www.ecoustics.com/articles/set-speakers-small-receiver-setup/

Yes, bright side, even with 135w/ch and Tone adjustments... I wish HT were my only concern.

danz1906 wrote: »

The RTi/RTia series are on the Bright side,but they are Great on HT!

MADGSF wrote: »

I did the Polk RTiA5 demo way back in the day, on my same system, for a few weeks and they are a little less bright but still bright to me. Not sure about the Monitor line as I have never heard them. The LSi series, either the old or current products, are my favorite Polk speakers that I have actually heard for music. I have permanent ringing in my ears so I am very sensitive to this and unless the system is fronted by tubes I am a ring tweeter guy.

good info. I need to poke around to see if I can get these auditioned somehow.

F1nut wrote: »

At what volume level? What is your source? What are your cables?

Basically across the range, and it's worse at higher levels, obviously.

I'm only using the basic RCA interconnect for CD, and optical for TV and Squeezebox. Those are my only sources for now. I've been doing pretty much all of my testing using the Squeezebox Touch (optical). perhaps it's all this digital that's contributing to the crispy to a degree.

For speaker wire, nothing fancy - just some 14awg or 16awg monsterish stuff. I say 14 or 16 because I'm not really sure what it is exactly; it's old stuff I've had for a while. it looks thicker than 16, but has a thin blue wire running through it and isn't very stiff. it's prob just 16. short runs, less than 12ft.

For receivers and amps, I've used:
- an old Realistic STA-84, rated at 25wpc and known to have produced warm sound in the past (better than the 521)
- a baby Pioneer VSX-521-k AVR rated at 80wpc, but not all that powerful; okay when S.RTV is on and tone adjusted down; still too bright for extended listening
- a new Pioneer SC-75 class D at 135wpc; a bit better than the 521, but mostly just cleaner; doesn't do anything for the mids/highs
- a B&K EX-442 amplifier rated at 200wpc

so far, the B&K out of the SC-75 produced the best result. pretty clean delivery up through about -5db. This was an experiment to see whether an amplifier could lend a little warmth to the setup, and whether that route would get me this sound quality that has eluded me so far with this project. it cleaned things up to be sure, but didn't contribute much to the mid-range didn't do anything profoundly noticeable for the top end to where I could say, okay, this is a comfortable setup. forget listening to rock or anything heavy. this is ear damage territory for me. literally. my ears feel pressured and ring after these test sessions. I've never experienced this before, or at least not to this degree on my older systems. classical seems to perform the best and most comfortably. I'm very new to this technology, so I don't really know what is contributing to this effect. I imagine some of it has to do with the source and its controls, and some just due to speaker design, though I guess it's probably every piece of the system weighing in.

oh - also, environment! I'm renovating a little, so the space is exposed concrete flooring here and there, large open room, about 35x25, furniture and rugs here and there, nothing on the walls. even so, the Monitor 10's I picked up with that B&K amp are not as bright. I've actually been running the four speakers together, all up front, and comparing to two. as a side note they don't blend seamlessly, which I didn't expect, but this is probably why they recommend timbre matching in speakers on the front sound stage, yeah?

nbrowser wrote: »

Depends on what's being used to power them as I've personally found. There's something to be said about synergy with gear, the wrong combination and it sounds horrible, the right combination and things start to sound good. When my A7's were directly connected to a HK receiver, little bass, very bright overly detailed a little too forward, added a amp made by Parasound, they tamed down, the bass went up quite a bit and overall, the sound quality improved vastly. Just my experience. YMMV.

this is excellent information, and pretty much what I'm experiencing.

F1nut wrote: »

One of the biggest challenges in home audio/HT is finding the right combo and that rarely just happens. It's a step by step process, it takes work and patience. You state that your room isn't completed, so you should really wait until all that is in place before passing judgement on anything you're hearing now. I also noted that your speakers and AVR are brand new. You need to give them time to break in.

That said, it all starts with the source. You didn't mention the brand/model of CDP, but if it's some cheaper piece, well you're going to need to upgrade that. Cheap CDP's sound like crap, period. Cables are very important and what you're using is part of the problem. Squeezebox I know very little about except that I don't want one.

hahahahahaa! ah man, I LOVE this place!
old Sony 5 disc carousel - CDP-CE245. let the flogging begin!
and. I'm not even using optical with it; cheap RCA wire.

I think I asked the question earlier this week in nbrowser's thread about the Pioneer SC-1227 when we got to talking about a Marantz CDP on sale up his way - I was sincerely asking what I was missing with that CD player that he was looking to spend so much on. I clearly had (have) no idea that every single piece matters! really I had no idea that a CD player could make such a difference.

alright. I'm gonna try to chill.

I think I have 2 similar threads going right now; they've sort of ended up in the same place. along the lines of the gear, I spoke with one of the guys at Best Buy this eve after stopping by to check out a few things, and he's putting me on to the Marantz 6008, so I'm gonna give this a shot to see whether it makes a difference.

okay, so I haven't abandoned this post and it's now time for an update.

I spent some more time playing around this past weekend, and was at Best Buy Friday, Saturday & Sunday. those dudes know me a little now. annnnnd might be tired of talking to me, hehe. seriously though, good crew there. patient.

Anyway, so it was recommended that I return the SC-75 in favor of the Marantz SR7007, which I was told should produce a warmer sound with AB class amplification vs D class. long story short, not any significant difference. a couple of side notes - as with anything, both AVR's have their strong points. Marantz has more x-over control, for one, but the rest of the ergos didn't really suit me. I've grown partial to the Pioneer, but didn't much care for its amber display. I found both units to be cumbersomely over-complicated, and frankly, I only went with them for the power ratings. I just wanna listen to music, mostly. I'll handle my own networking and streaming, too, though I wonder whether you can view/control that stuff with OSD... anyway...

So, long story short, I think between the two I've pretty much ruled out that power delivery is not my problem. or at least, not the only problem. the SQ was definitely cleaner at volume, but the music was still lacking body. and it was still screaming. I returned both units and spoke with the guys some more. I needed a break.

Feeling pretty fed up and frustrated last night, I pulled out the rest of the gear I bought from a guy off Craigslist here locally - a set of B&K stuff. when I originally checked it out at his place, one of the channels from the preamp wasn't outputting. he made me a deal, and I brought the set home anyway. so I hook everything up last night, and guess what. both channels were playing! interesting thing is - the RTi10's are cah-RANKing now. noticeably better. I tried running this same amplifier through both of those AVR's I was working with and it did NOT sound like this. that rich full sound I've been after is more readily apparent with this old setup. I couldn't get over it. I was tweaking and listening to different stuff for at least 2 hours after I got it set up. I literally can't believe the difference. thing is now, I have no idea how a preamp can make so much difference. this is the only piece that's different in the setup - music through Squeezebox Touch connected over RCA > preamp > amp > RTi10's. fairly full sound, very nice mids and lows, a little bright up top, but not like it was, AND, so much more tunability with the preamp. I'm able to make finer adjustments to get the sound I want. I was immediately missing having a remote, though, hehe.

so. these speakers ARE capable of outputting acceptable quality music for me, however, I do still think that something in the LSi lineup might be a better fit and am exploring the LSiM703. not sure what I'm going to do at this point. the RTi10's have really grown on me, and I'm beginning to enjoy having them. kinda wondering whether I'm going to be one of you guys with the two separate rigs, one for music, one for home theater. I'm kicking around some ideas, considering getting something a little easier to push with an AVR for home theater, like RTi8's and picking up the CSi5 center, or just switching over entirely to LSi.

I need to start researching modern preamps that will still provide the full, rich sound I knew I was missing. I swear, everyone I've been talking to thought I was crazy, but I knew it was there!

I've got a modest AVR picked out for the HT side (SC-1222-k), just need to wait for it to go on sale again.

here are a couple of photos of the B&K stuff
- TS-108 Tuner
- MC-101 Sonata Preamp
- EX-442 Amplifier (200w/ch x 2)

man, *I* covet your amp, haha
I think that was on the third tablet of Commandments that Moses dropped on Mt. Sinai.
"thou shalt not run RTi speakers without proper amplification, but thou shalt covet thy neighbor's Parasound HCA1200II. this is ok."
it was a tall tablet.