Will power make that big of a difference? Do i need more?

jarodjarod Posts: 21
edited November 2012 in Speakers
HEY GUYS I HAVE TSI 300 AND 400 TOWERS UP FRONT.ONLY THE 400'S RUN WHEN ON 5.1. I ALSO HAVE CSI10 AND A 10" SUB. HAD SOME SURROUNDS BUT FIXING TO GO TSI 100 OR 200 FOR THOSE TO KEEP EVERYTHING IN LIKE KIND. I HAVE A PIONEER VSX 821 AT 80 WATTS RMS SO THEY SAY. MY PROBLEM IS THAT WHEN WE WATCH A MOVIE I HAVE TO REALLY CRANK THE VOLUME TO GET THE EFFECT THAT I WANT AND ITS TOO LOUD FOR MY WIFE. I AM THINKING ABOUT A MARANTZ 5007 OR DENON 2313 BUT WONDER IF MY SPEAKERS WILL REALLY BENEFIT FROM THIS. THESE ARE EXPENSIVE RECIEVERS AND I WANTED SOME OTHER OPINIONS ON THIS MATTER. ANY FEEDBACK WOULD BE GREAT. THANKS :question:
Post edited by jarod on
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Comments

  • goofyGAguygoofyGAguy Posts: 577
    edited October 2012
    jarod wrote: »
    ANY FEEDBACK WOULD BE GREAT.

    Fwd28mp_Caps_Lock__1126390f.jpg
    My humble setup...

    ...is no more. :cry:
  • dudeinaroomdudeinaroom Posts: 3,625
    edited October 2012
    Well before we can point you in the right direction, we need to know what the problem is. Is there not enough bass? Are voices hard to hear? Is it something else? There is no need to yell, we can hear or should I say see your typing just fine. LOL.
    TV speakers
  • cnhcnh Posts: 13,310
    edited October 2012
    goofyGAguy wrote: »
    Fwd28mp_Caps_Lock__1126390f.jpg

    Now that's funny! But to be honest. Using CAPS and thinking that means SHOUTING on the internet is just a "social" convention that must be "learned"; there is NOTHING about caps alone that means "anything". You have to be instructed in a "culture of internet etiquette" to realize you're TYPING TOO LOUDLY. And even as I type that I can't help but chuckle or laugh (how can one type too loudly?).

    OK, don't use caps, but only because it's a "convention" of arbitrarily agreed upon politeness to NOT call any attention to yourself!

    Now on to other issues that do not involve "cultural relativity"!

    The problem with your post is you say two contradictory things.

    One, you don't have enough power!

    Two, your wife's ears say you do!

    So which is it?

    cnh
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  • Geoff4rfcGeoff4rfc Posts: 1,776
    edited October 2012
    I always struggled with the "do I really need more power" question. The answer is.......YES

    I would imagine having the TSi500 and feeding it tons of power would do the trick. I noticed the like speaker M70 responded quite well to LOTS of power.

    One of your main problems however (in my opinion), is probably not a power issue, but a speaker issue, namely your center. I bet, just bet that if you upgraded to the CS20, your vocal dynamics would greatly improve the "effect" your talking about.

    The center upgrade would be a relatively inexpensive one compared to what you're considering. I would start there and then see what you've got.
    When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman

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  • jarodjarod Posts: 21
    edited October 2012
    thanks for checking out my thread man and thank you for worrying about my POWER issue more than my typing in all CAPS issue. i thought maybe if i added more power to the mix it would take less volume to get an equally fuller and pleasing sound. Maybe the TSI's just aren't going to do what i thought they were either. any way i thought i would give them a fair shake with more power before going another route. do you really think going to the CSI20 would be that big of a deal?
  • Geoff4rfcGeoff4rfc Posts: 1,776
    edited October 2012
    Don't get me wrong on the power issue, I'm not that familiar with your TSi's 300 and 400 which are equivalent to the Monitor 50 and 60, I had the M70's, when I fed them lots of power, they came to life, I would imagine yours would do the same.

    On the bigger center, oh heck yes!! I actually demoed them side by side and the 20 ba-lew the 10 away, made it sound like it was straining to try and keep up. I had the CS2 with my monitors feeding them 200wpc and they sounded very good both musically and theatrically.

    I'd go bigger center first and then add your amp or do both at the same time.
    When I was young, I was Superman but now that old age has gotten the best of me I'm only Batman

    HT
    Source: Oppo 103 - Display: Samsung QLED 65F
    Pre/Processor: Marantz 8802A - Amplification: Emotiva XPA-DR3, XPA-2 x 2

    2CH
    Emotiva: ERC 3 connected via XLR's

    Speakers
    PolkAudio Mains: LSiM707, C-706, SS: 702F/X, RS: RTiA9


    EXPERIENCE: next to nothing, but I sure enjoy audio and video MY OPINION OF THIS HOBBY: I may not be a smart man, but I know what quicksand is
  • jarodjarod Posts: 21
    edited October 2012
    k thanks for the advice. i think i will check around for a CSI20 and see what i can find. i am also going to look into a reciever. the one i have now doesn't have pre outs for an amp so even if i wanted to go with an amp i couldn't. i will also eventually go to the RTI series so i will need a powerful reciever anyway. when i do the center and more power i will let you know how it went. thanks man.
  • erniejadeerniejade Posts: 5,009
    edited October 2012
    If you are having a small issue with you wanting it louder or think it needs to be louder and your wife doesn't, is some of this caused by you needing to turn it up during quiet parts and when a loud part comes on its too loud for her? Does your receiver have a night mode? it will help even out the soft and loud to keep it at one volume. This way when she's not home take it off that mode to have it true to its form and when she is home or watching, put it on to keep the peace.
    Den: Lumin D1,Wireworld Silver Eclipse, KEF LS50 Wireless, Velodyne SPL1200, Technics 1200, Denon DL160, Jolida D9,

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  • EndersShadowEndersShadow Posts: 16,831
    edited October 2012
    erniejade wrote: »
    If you are having a small issue with you wanting it louder or think it needs to be louder and your wife doesn't, is some of this caused by you needing to turn it up during quiet parts and when a loud part comes on its too loud for her? Does your receiver have a night mode? it will help even out the soft and loud to keep it at one volume. This way when she's not home take it off that mode to have it true to its form and when she is home or watching, put it on to keep the peace.

    Yup, as Ernie mentions my Integra has a Night mode which I turn on high when playing video games while my wife is asleep. Allows me to keep the same volume, but the bass is MUCH less so it doesnt wake her
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • gfonggfong Posts: 1,077
    edited October 2012
    I thnk the issue could be in this sentence! :)

    "REALLY CRANK THE VOLUME TO GET THE EFFECT THAT I WANT AND ITS TOO LOUD FOR MY WIFE."


    Til you get rid of the wife, I would not add more power!
  • trav0810trav0810 Posts: 1,058
    edited October 2012
    Yup, as Ernie mentions my Integra has a Night mode which I turn on high when playing video games while my wife is asleep. Allows me to keep the same volume, but the bass is MUCH less so it doesnt wake her

    that is a really nice feature
    The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits.” -Albert Einstein

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  • gp4jesusgp4jesus Posts: 1,233
    edited October 2012
    Maybe your wife's ears are more sensitive to distortion. Perhaps your LCR are more reactive than your AVR can handle, the issue separates for same could solve.
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  • jarodjarod Posts: 21
    edited October 2012
    for sure man!!!
  • jarodjarod Posts: 21
    edited October 2012
    well i have a lower end pioneer vsx-821-k and although not bad for the money it does not have those kind of features. so no one thinks you get a "fuller sound" at lower volume with more power then. i think i will go with geof4 above and try the bigger center channel and i want to upgrade my reciever also so i will be looking into one of those also. i think i need to just go ahead and move a set of towers to the garage and get a jammin 2 channel set-up going.:razz:
  • SugarmillManSugarmillMan Posts: 175
    edited October 2012
    If you are having distortion issues, maybe you do need a better receiver or one with preouts so you can purchase a small amp. THAT WILL KEEP YOUR WIFE FROM YELLING AT YOU.
    Fronts:B&W 804 Diamonds, Center: B&W HTM2 Diamond, Surrounds: PolkAudio LSi F/X (4)
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  • SpiffyfastSpiffyfast Posts: 35
    edited November 2012
    I'd look for a receiver with a "midnight" mode, works wonders
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  • spongersponger Posts: 325
    edited November 2012
    jarod wrote: »
    a powerful reciever

    Lemme know when you find one. I'm not sure there is such a thing.
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  • BugstyvyBugstyvy Posts: 113
    edited November 2012
    power is overated
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  • ken brydsonken brydson Posts: 7,523
    edited November 2012
    Bugstyvy wrote: »
    power is overated

    I wouldn't call that "participation". Only 60 more crap posts to reach your goal...:rolleyes:
    HT/Main- Panny 50" G10 Plasma, Pioneer SC-1222k AVR, Panny DMP-BD60 BDP, Polk LS90 mains, CS350LS center, LS/fx side surrounds, LS50 surround backs, SVS 25-31PC+ sub, Harmony One

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  • EndersShadowEndersShadow Posts: 16,831
    edited November 2012
    I wouldn't call that "participation". Only 60 more crap posts to reach your goal...:rolleyes:

    Agreed ken, however just cause he can see the items doesn't mean we will sell to him :smile: just look at gigabyte and his Mac amp he is trying to sell. He pulled the same crap.

    @ bug: Actually contribute or you won't like us at all cause we won't buy or sell from you.
    "....not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." William Bruce Cameron, Informal Sociology: A Casual Introduction to Sociological Thinking (1963)
  • nikoniknikonik Posts: 118
    edited November 2012
    goofyGAguy wrote: »
    Fwd28mp_Caps_Lock__1126390f.jpg
    I like it!!! Thanks for the laugh and I like to have reserve power when needed. For the most part, I use minimal powere but then again, I only like to turn the knob a little and have it come alive wo having to turn the knob to 3 oclock. Get some power!
  • jeremymarcinkojeremymarcinko Posts: 3,484
    edited November 2012
    I would go with the Cs2 as well, make sure you calibrate all your speaker levels to a common db I like 70 db for all channels some prefer a 2 to 4 db increase on the center. More power can boost sound quality through the transients however my meters rarely read more than 30 watts per channel during loud scenes explosions trains door knock etc. Typical dialog never over 3w. this is listening at -10db under reference which is plenty loud. In my opinion 100w per channel is sufficient to play at reference levels given a good power supply and low Thd% think 0.09% or lower 20hz-20khz 2 channels driven. Its important not to look at marketing numbers of thd% at 1khz. Also further noise floor is becoming an issue with the heavy processing of HD video signals and 3d 4k is creating low freq. noise in alot of the new Hdmi recievers. Especially with wi-fi and networking ypao audyssey smart features all draw off the same power supply and introduce some level of interference . Some manufacturers are listing the noise floor % in the spec but I am unsure as of yet what is acceptable. I would think 0.0.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,766
    edited November 2012
    jarod wrote: »
    well i have a lower end pioneer vsx-821-k and although not bad for the money it does not have those kind of features. so no one thinks you get a "fuller sound" at lower volume with more power then. i think i will go with geof4 above and try the bigger center channel and i want to upgrade my reciever also so i will be looking into one of those also. i think i need to just go ahead and move a set of towers to the garage and get a jammin 2 channel set-up going.:razz:

    Happy Thanksgiving! Do you have all of your individual channel levels maxed out? Try that and see. Also, you can play with xover settings to get that desired "fullness" you are looking for.
  • jeremymarcinkojeremymarcinko Posts: 3,484
    edited November 2012
    deronb1 wrote: »
    Do you have all of your individual channel levels maxed out? Try that and see.

    Maxing all levels will do the same as turning up the volume 6db's usually. You need a spl meter. to calibrate all channels. Room conditions size,speakers furniture rugs curtains walls all reflect or absorb sound. As well as the distance from your listening position from each individual speaker. The system needs to be properly calibrated not maxed out. Maxing them all out could cause the mains drown out the center or the surrounds louder than the mains depending on their location distance line of sight etc. Also even though your mains are large and can certainly handle the low hz. crossing over every channel at 80hz will make the surround experience more seamless, and take a huge load off of your receivers power supply allowing it of produce clearer more accurate sound.
    BTW your tsi 300 would make great surrounds, same as the monitor50's im using.

    there are free spl meter apps for your smart phone if you have one. Not near as accurate as the real thing but good enough to set your levels from pink noise.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,766
    edited November 2012
    Maxing all levels will do the same as turning up the volume 6db's usually. You need a spl meter. to calibrate all channels. Room conditions size,speakers furniture rugs curtains walls all reflect or absorb sound. As well as the distance from your listening position from each individual speaker. The system needs to be properly calibrated not maxed out. Maxing them all out could cause the mains drown out the center or the surrounds louder than the mains depending on their location distance line of sight etc. Also even though your mains are large and can certainly handle the low hz. crossing over every channel at 80hz will make the surround experience more seamless, and take a huge load off of your receivers power supply allowing it of produce clearer more accurate sound.
    BTW your tsi 300 would make great surrounds, same as the monitor50's im using.

    there are free spl meter apps for your smart phone if you have one. Not near as accurate as the real thing but good enough to set your levels from pink noise.

    When I run MCACC on my Pio, it always sets the speakers way too low. Really have to crank the volume to get desired sound. It's terrible, and although there are different variables involved in the auto calibration, maxing out the levels sounds best IMHO. One can always start from max and tweak down if need be. An SPL meter is fine, but sort of a waste of time with HT. Each movie is going to sound different.
  • thsmiththsmith Posts: 6,092
    edited November 2012
    What size is your room ?

    How far back from the mains and center do you sit ?
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  • jeremymarcinkojeremymarcinko Posts: 3,484
    edited November 2012
    deronb1 wrote: »
    An SPL meter is fine, but sort of a waste of time with HT.

    Calibration is essential if you want to experience the soundtrack the way it was recorded. I agree Mcacc and Audyssey Ypao usually does turn down the levels especially of the subwoofer. It is calibrating to 80db when at reference. When using a relative gain scale 0db is considered reference level. I typically listen at -15db to -20db. I think most people would agree listening at 0db is to loud. By maxing out all of your levels you are only changing what the volume level shows you on your display. When listening at reference level your receiver will show you -6db to -12db instead of 0db depending how much your receiver allows to turn up any given channel. All you are doing by maxing everything out is seeing an inaccurate representation on your display of how close to reference you are listening.
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • RamZetRamZet Posts: 776
    edited November 2012
    What ever the speaker is rated at, double it.

    A underpowered speaker can sound bad. I took a pair of B&W CM5s home from work. I pumped 100w into each speaker and I thought they sounded like trash ( I was so upset because I really wanted a pair ) So I pumped each speaker up to 200w each and they sounded a millions times better. It was a night and day difference in sound.
    B&W
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  • jeremymarcinkojeremymarcinko Posts: 3,484
    edited November 2012
    RamZet wrote: »
    What ever the speaker is rated at, double it.

    A underpowered speaker can sound bad. I took a pair of B&W CM5s home from work. I pumped 100w into each speaker and I thought they sounded like trash ( I was so upset because I really wanted a pair ) So I pumped each speaker up to 200w each and they sounded a millions times better. It was a night and day difference in sound.

    How did you know how much power you were pumping to them?
    Oh, Listen here mister. We got no way of understandin' this world. But we got as much sense of this bird flyin in the sky. Now there is a lot that bird don't know, but it don't change the fact that the world is happening to him all the same. What I am tryin to say is, is that the course of your life, well its changing, and you don't even see it- Forest Bondurant
  • deronb1deronb1 Posts: 4,766
    edited November 2012
    Calibration is essential if you want to experience the soundtrack the way it was recorded. I agree Mcacc and Audyssey Ypao usually does turn down the levels especially of the subwoofer. It is calibrating to 80db when at reference. When using a relative gain scale 0db is considered reference level. I typically listen at -15db to -20db. I think most people would agree listening at 0db is to loud. By maxing out all of your levels you are only changing what the volume level shows you on your display. When listening at reference level your receiver will show you -6db to -12db instead of 0db depending how much your receiver allows to turn up any given channel. All you are doing by maxing everything out is seeing an inaccurate representation on your display of how close to reference you are listening.

    I NEVER turn my AVR up that high. I don't have to because I have my channels maxed out. I rarely put it past -30db because it gets uncomfortably loud. Isn't my amp running more efficiently this way?
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