A Historical Overview of Stereophonic Blind Testing

124

Comments

  • bikezappabikezappa Posts: 2,515
    edited July 2012
    BlueFox wrote: »

    Or

    Empty barrels make the most noise.

    Music is the best, Zappa
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,671
    edited July 2012
    Teachable Moment Definition: A teachable moment is an unplanned opportunity that arises in the classroom where a teacher has an ideal chance to offer insight to his or her students.


    Hi Arnold,

    I am thrilled to see that you have been engaging in some tutorial work. Continuing in that mode, I hope you will appreciate the honor I offer you to teach us more about blind testing of stereophonic audio systems.

    The picture below shows three pairs of loudspeakers in my home theater room:

    1. Two pairs of the same model bookshelf speaker, except that one pair has crossover modifications.
    2. One large pair of floor standing speakers.

    Please talk us through the procedures for a proper blind test using the ABX comparator for test scenarios 1 and 2:

    Scenario 1: Compare the unmodified bookshelf speakers to the modified bookshelf speakers.

    Scenario 2: Compare the modified bookshelf speakers to the large floor standing speakers.

    Scenario 3: Assuming an ABX Comparator is not available, what would be the proper blind test procedure for comparing the unmodified bookshelf speakers to the modified bookshelf speakers?

    Scenario 4: Assuming an ABX Comparator is not available, what would be the proper blind test procedure for comparing the modified bookshelf speakers to the large floor standing speakers?

    Thanks for your time.

    CRSEval-Setup-s.jpg
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,671
    edited July 2012
    bikezappa wrote: »
    Or

    Empty barrels make the most noise.

    Music is the best, Zappa

    Hi BZ,

    You don't see anything of value coming from our discussion? I thought the "teachable moment" opportunity above could provide some valuable insights.

    P.S. - I hope you don't consider me an "empty barrel".
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • arnyarny Posts: 37
    edited July 2012

    The picture below shows three pairs of loudspeakers in my home theater room:

    I've already pointed out some of the difficulties involved with doing DBTs involving speakers. They are well known.

    Please convince me that you are not trying to show that since DBTs of certain components can be very difficult, DBTs should never be done. That would be consistent with your previous published work in the area.
  • RutgarRutgar Posts: 16
    edited July 2012
    As I indicated on AVS, I stay away from picking on other people's personal gear and set ups. But I must confess DK, that I find the glass coffee table confusing, and believe it is a sound killer.
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,671
    edited July 2012
    headrott wrote: »
    Raife, I don't know that the fellows at the AVS forum know there are these two options. Perhaps the reason for this post?

    The fellows at AVS are talking about me? Really? Why?

    The purpose for that post was to share my evening's plans. That's just something that friends do.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,148
    edited July 2012
    Arny, I'll assume by your inability to answer very direct question(s) that successful, repeatable DBT's can't be administered. If they could, then you would have a very specific set of guidelines that are applicable across the board. "Pointing out some difficulties" and "they are all well known" is a complete cop-out. You came here to try and educate us, well in the guise of educating, except you have failed to even start the lesson. Of course we all know you aren't here to teach but to taunt. Your motives are completely transparent.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,671
    edited July 2012
    Rutgar wrote: »
    As I indicated on AVS, I stay away from picking on other people's personal gear and set ups. But I must confess DK, that I find the glass coffee table confusing, and believe it is a sound killer.

    Nope, the sound is rich, vibrant and very much alive in those rooms. Perhaps the large area rugs under the tables, among other things, help a bit.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,148
    edited July 2012
    Another AVS member comes out of the woodwork to stir the pot. It's nice to see you guys are branching out a bit, get out of the compound once in awhile.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,671
    edited July 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Of course we all know you aren't here to teach but to taunt. Your motives are completely transparent.

    Now, now, we can't read minds.
    arny wrote: »
    Please convince me that you are not trying to show that since DBTs of certain components can be very difficult, DBTs should never be done.

    I would never extrapolate and generalize DBT like that. I Promise.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,148
    edited July 2012
    Rutgar wrote: »
    As I indicated on AVS, I stay away from picking on other people's personal gear and set ups. But I must confess DK, that I find the glass coffee table confusing, and believe it is a sound killer.

    I have a glass coffee table as well and have moved it in and out of position, noticing no difference. Of course I have my room set-up properly. Glass can be an issue, but each individual situation and room are different. You can't make a blanket generalization that in all cases it's a "sound killer".

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,148
    edited July 2012
    Now, now, we can't read minds.

    I am basing my observation based solely on his actions and his written word in this thread. Before he showed up here I had no idea of Arnold Kreuger and I still don't, so I have no preconceived notions of him or his apparent interaction outside of this thread.

    Perhaps he could change my impressions of him by answering the questions and engaging and providing some ideas that might reinforce his opinions.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • arnyarny Posts: 37
    edited July 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Arny, I'll assume by your inability to answer very direct question(s) that successful, repeatable DBT's can't be administered. If they could, then you would have a very specific set of guidelines that are applicable across the board. "Pointing out some difficulties" and "they are all well known" is a complete cop-out. You came here to try and educate us, well in the guise of educating, except you have failed to even start the lesson. Of course we all know you aren't here to teach but to taunt. Your motives are completely transparent.

    Thank you so very much for your vigorous efforts towards making my previous post numbered 102 appear to be prescient. ;-)
  • RutgarRutgar Posts: 16
    edited July 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Another AVS member comes out of the woodwork to stir the pot. It's nice to see you guys are branching out a bit, get out of the compound once in awhile.

    H9

    Evidently, AVS isn't the only place with jerks. The coffee table question is a perfectly legitimate question. And I wasn't 'stirring any pots'. Glass coffee tables can often play havoc on sound in a room, and I was curious if DK had tried listening without it. BTW, I am member of many audio forums, including this one since 08. I just simply don't post here because I don't own Polk Speakers.
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,148
    edited July 2012
    Arny, So again you aren't willing to answer any specific questions or provide insightful support for your opinions because you are afraid of the rebuttal? If it's a foregone conclusion about the outcome, then why are you still engaging people in this thread?

    I honestly don't understand why you have vigorously stated a position, but are unwilling to provide support for that opinion because of fear of rebuttal? Are we to just take you are your vague word?

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,148
    edited July 2012
    Rutgar wrote: »
    Evidently, AVS isn't the only place with jerks. The coffee table question is a perfectly legitimate question. And I wasn't 'stirring any pots'. Glass coffee tables can often play havoc on sound in a room, and I was curious if DK had tried listening without it. BTW, I am member of many audio forums, including this one since 08. I just simply don't post here because I don't own Polk Speakers.

    My apologies, it just seemed out of left field being as this discussion had nothing to do with glass coffee tables. But I understand on an internet BB, many ideas get discussed and many can be related but out of context.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • RutgarRutgar Posts: 16
    edited July 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    I have a glass coffee table as well and have moved it in and out of position, noticing no difference. Of course I have my room set-up properly. Glass can be an issue, but each individual situation and room are different. You can't make a blanket generalization that in all cases it's a "sound killer".

    I didn't make a blanket statement, I used the word 'believe. If noticed no difference, then great. But even in the first part of your post, You mentioned that glass can be an issue.
  • RutgarRutgar Posts: 16
    edited July 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    My apologies, it just seemed out of left field being as this discussion had nothing to do with glass coffee tables. But I understand on an internet BB, many ideas get discussed and many can be related but out of context.

    H9

    Okay, I understand. And I apologize if I got defensive. The reason I brought it up, was because of the photo just posted. I will admit, it is a cool looking coffee table.

    Edit: I also like your Sig, BTW.
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,148
    edited July 2012
    deleted post, time to move on.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • arnyarny Posts: 37
    edited July 2012
    Now, now, we can't read minds.



    I would never extrapolate and generalize DBT like that. I Promise.

    Since you did a very similar thing in the OP, I have a hard time taking the above very seriously. Your subsequent posts reinforce my concerns.
  • arnyarny Posts: 37
    edited July 2012
    Joe08867 wrote: »
    My favorite line from the Stereophile debate.
    Don't get me wrong. Tests are important. The more accurate the tests, the better they can provide a sense of what is going on mechanically and electronically. But tests can neither adequately describe nor convey everything we hear, sense and feel. Nothing can replace the experience of comparing the sound of equipment with live performance. Whatever your musical tastes may be, you'd be wise to thoroughly indulge in the real thing before placing your bets on equipment that may test better than it sounds.

    So you are a great fan of excluded middle statements? ;-)

    I'd bet you still don't recognize it, even after I point it out...
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,148
    edited July 2012
    arny wrote: »
    Since you did a very similar thing in the OP, I have a hard time taking the above very seriously. Your subsequent posts reinforce my concerns.

    Again, I have to ask why do you continue to engage people in this thread if you have such grave concerns about not being taken seriously? Perhaps this isn't the right venue to discuss your opinions on what to you is a very serious subject matter. Of course your initial post really had nothing to do with discussing your point of view on the subject at hand but more to voice your concerns about your reputation and how it might have be misrepresented by DK to your friends at another audio forum.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • arnyarny Posts: 37
    edited July 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Again, I have to ask why do you continue to engage people in this thread if you have such grave concerns about not being taken seriously?

    Since I am also concerned about your welfare, please do not quit your day job for a career in mind reading. ;-)

    I'm not concerned at all about being taken seriously. I am concerned about wasting time with insincere questions.

    BTW, in case nobody ever told you, taunts don't count as sincere offers of discussion topics. ;-)
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,148
    edited July 2012
    arny wrote: »
    I am concerned about wasting time with insincere questions.

    Who is mind reading now? Continue to preach without saying anything then.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • arnyarny Posts: 37
    edited July 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Who is mind reading now?

    I am unaware of any general rule stating that one must read minds to recognize taunts and other insincere talk.

    Could you please provide an authoritative reference for that claim, along with an exact quote?
  • cnhcnh Posts: 13,310
    edited July 2012
    I suspect this thread won't last much longer before it gets shut down. And it will not be the first time someone from AVS has rolled over to this forum to educate everyone and then been banned!

    Why this back and forth is even necessary is beyond me! Time for the opponents to go back to their neutral corners and wait for the judges' decision. lol

    What is the "motivation" for all this? To WIN an argument, to seem the "better", to "prove" to us like some Fundamentalist, that we're all going to spend eternity in hell because we can't and haven't accepted the "truth" and its "prophet"?

    The mature individual knows when to STOP and WALK away! The child, not so much.

    Don't believe me? Take a look at the political thread that got itself closed. Surprise, surprise...!

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
  • heiney9heiney9 Posts: 24,148
    edited July 2012
    cnh wrote: »
    I suspect this thread won't last much longer before it gets shut down.
    cnh

    That is the goal, so let's not let it go that route. Let's stay on topic. Although I have tried to engage Arny on this topic, which he feels strongly enough about to revive the thread and offer a hint of an opposing view, but he won't engage further for fear of wasting time because of the insincerity of his audience.

    I am sorry to say since he feels I'm not worth his time, then he is not worth mine any longer.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • arnyarny Posts: 37
    edited July 2012
    cnh wrote: »
    I suspect this thread won't last much longer before it gets shut down.

    That could be. Apparently there is no real interest in discussing audio testing methodologies, OP notwithstanding.
    And it will not be the first time someone from AVS has rolled over to this forum to educate everyone and then been banned!

    There you go. I'm interested in a sincere exchange of ideas and then I'm repeatedly accused of wanting to educate people.
    Why this back and forth is even necessary is beyond me!

    The basics of "back and forth" is that it takes at least two to keep it going.
    Time for the opponents to go back to their neutral corners and wait for the judges' decision. lol

    So you can only conceive of an exchange of ideas as a contest?
    What is the "motivation" for all this?

    Exchanging ideas, not taunts or insults.

    To WIN an argument, to seem the "better", to "prove" to us like some Fundamentalist, that we're all going to spend eternity in hell because we can't and haven't accepted the "truth" and its "prophet"?


    There you go again, all about some sort of contest.
    The mature individual knows when to STOP and WALK away! The child, not so much.

    Which relates to your presence here how? ;-)
  • arnyarny Posts: 37
    edited July 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    That is the goal, so let's not let it go that route. Let's stay on topic. Although I have tried to engage Arny on this topic, which he feels strongly enough about to revive the thread and offer a hint of an opposing view, but he won't engage further for fear of wasting time because of the insincerity of his audience.

    Please summarize your posts by post number and explain how they relate to a serious discussion of audio listening test methodologies. I hope that if you do this, you will see a pattern...
  • DarqueKnightDarqueKnight Posts: 6,671
    edited July 2012
    arny wrote: »
    Since you did a very similar thing in the OP, I have a hard time taking the above very seriously. Your subsequent posts reinforce my concerns.

    OK Arnold. I thought that you would welcome the opportunity to teach.

    Regardless of what you think I would do with the information, the value of valid information is not diminished by someone taking that information and making a sweeping generalization. For example, it would be appropriate for a dog trainer offering a course on training pit bulls to discuss examples of violent incidents that might occur as a result of improper training. It would be irresponsible for the trainer to omit such information. The trainer should not be afraid or paranoid that someone might take examples of violent pit bull incidents and use them to characterize all pit bulls as vicious psychopathic animals. Anyone with a serious interest in acquiring a pit bull would do their due diligence and learn the truth about these sweet, loyal and courageous animals.

    I offered a number of questions in post #77. Will you be addressing those questions sometime today or in the near future? I am particularly interested in how you determined that a lot of naive people are being influenced by my writings. Furthermore, I would like to get some idea of how many people constitutes "a lot". A rough estimate is fine.

    Thanks.
    "So hot it burns Mice!"~DK
    "Polk SDA-SRSs are hopelessly out of date both sonically and technologically... I see no value whatsoever in older SDA speakers."~Audio Asylum Member
    "Knowledge, without understanding, is a path to failure."~DK
    "Those who irrationally rail against something or someone that is no threat to them, actually desire (or desire to be like) the thing or person they are railing against."~DK
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