Room size for SDA1c
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Oldfatdogs
Posts: 1,874
I have been thinking about the SDA1c for a while,my room is 13by13 is this big enough for the 1c?And is the Belles one have the guts to properly drive them.I don't want to get the cart before the horse.The amp is hooked up to the NAD T743 for now, until I find a nice two channel pre.What do you guys think?
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k484/Oldfatdogs/carvings/Belles/img001.jpg
It does not say if its common ground on the amp.Thanks for your input Dan
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k484/Oldfatdogs/carvings/Belles/img001.jpg
It does not say if its common ground on the amp.Thanks for your input Dan
Post edited by Oldfatdogs on
Comments
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13x13 is fine. make sure you have them flat against the wall by design. my room is around the same size and they sound great. most amps are common grounded, if it doesn't say any thing, that it's. only a few rare true mono-block aren't common grounded and there should be a big warning telling you that.
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13x13 is fine. make sure you have them flat against the wall by design. my room is around the same size and they sound great. most amps are common grounded, if it doesn't say any thing, that it's. only a few rare true mono-block aren't common grounded and there should be a big warning telling you that.
Uhhhh. 13x13 though not optimum will suffice. As for the flat against the wall thing...BS. 12 to 14 inches OUT from the wall MINIMUM and three feet from the side walls. There are numerous threads on placement here so search away. There are also room calculators online that will help you make adjustments to ceiling height and movement of walls if that is in the agenda. Mono blocks aren't rare, in fact they are quite common. Just check the ground posts for continuity and you'll be fine.Too much **** to list.... -
yes, flat against the wall is bad for most speakers. But for SDA 1Cs, the manual says that and straight up (no toe in nor out). Given his room's size, isn't 3ft from side wall too much?
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Most folks find that 6 to 8 inches from the back wall (basically flat against the wall) works for them. SDA's produce better bass closer to the back wall, but too close and the bass gets boomy. The distance between making it or breaking it can be as little as half an inch. The bass falls off dramatically the further out from the back wall they get.
I think most folks would find 12 to 14 inches too far out, but there may be some room anomalies where that distance may work. Remember, every room is different.
Most folks find that 6 to 8 feet apart works best. Using that as a guide, the minimum wall length works out to be 15 feet. With a 13 foot wall, you'll have to play a bit with the distance between the cabinets and the distance from the side walls to find the best balance.And is the Belles one have the guts to properly drive them.
At 30 peak amps it's a bit light, but it will drive them. There's no way to tell from the specs if it is common ground, but I'd bet it is. You can confirm that by checking for continuity between the negative outputs with a VOM. Turn the amp off and unplug it before testing just to be safe.only a few rare true mono-block aren't common grounded and there should be a big warning telling you that.Mono blocks aren't rare, in fact they are quite common. Just check the ground posts for continuity and you'll be fine.
The Belles One is not a mono block, but mono blocks, by their very nature, are not common ground. Not to mention that depending on the serial numbers of the 1C's, they may or may not be able to use the AI-1 and therefore, may or may not be able to be driven with mono blocks.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Since there's no standardized testing to determine "peak amps"; it would be hard to know from that what the amps are truly capable of in terms of whether they'll drive a moderately-low impedance like a pair of 1Cs.At 30 peak amps it's a bit light, but it will drive them.
I find that any time an amplifier manufacture starts quoting some crazy ampere specification, they won't tell you the test protocol because the spec is meaningless--a product of a non-musically-related laboratory experiment. -
Uhhhh. 13x13 though not optimum will suffice. As for the flat against the wall thing...BS. 12 to 14 inches OUT from the wall MINIMUM and three feet from the side walls. There are numerous threads on placement here so search away. There are also room calculators online that will help you make adjustments to ceiling height and movement of walls if that is in the agenda. Mono blocks aren't rare, in fact they are quite common. Just check the ground posts for continuity and you'll be fine.
This post should be deleted since just about every piece of advice is wrong. Room calculators don't work for SDA's because of their inherent nature, they aren't like a traditional speaker. Best to follow the speaker manufacturer's recommendation. The rarity of mono blocks or lack thereof has nothing to do if they will work with certain SDA's. By their very nature every single mono block is non-common ground so you have two choices. 1) IF you have late enough serial number 1C's you can build/buy an AI-1 interphase cable which allows all non-common ground amps to be run with SDA's (mono or not) 2) some mono block amps can safely have the negative speaker terminals tied together to make the connection common ground. For number 2 ALWAYS check with the amp manufacturer."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Thanks for all your input,do you think Id be better off with SDA2s?I don't want to drive 4 hours for something that's not going to work in my room.I really like the sound of the Belles amp, so not looking to upgrade again.It might be best to do is wait for a nice set of SDA2s.What do you guys with experience think?
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13 x 13 (x 8???) will be terrible for standing waves. Aside from that, it won't be any worse for the 1C than it will be for the SDA 2s; and from a certain perspective, any speaker you want to put in the room except maybe corner horns.
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13 x 13 (x 8???) will be terrible for standing waves. Aside from that, it won't be any worse for the 1C than it will be for the SDA 2s; and from a certain perspective, any speaker you want to put in the room except maybe corner horns.
Absolutely right. That is why I suggest a room calculator. If for no other reason for the education of room sizes that can, regardless of what Brock thinks (funny how he picks and chooses the science vs. the ears on effects he chooses to reference), have a serious effect on any sound wave independent of its source.Most folks find that 6 to 8 inches from the back wall (basically flat against the wall) works for them. SDA's produce better bass closer to the back wall, but too close and the bass gets boomy. The distance between making it or breaking it can be as little as half an inch. The bass falls off dramatically the further out from the back wall they get.
I think most folks would find 12 to 14 inches too far out, but there may be some room anomalies where that distance may work. Remember, every room is different.
I found with my room size and placement that the farther from the sidewall one gets, in respect to the distance between, bringing them out into the room another 8 inches created a smoother more controllable sound. I measured mine for reference and they are 15.75 inches from the back wall, 4'6 from the sides and 6'9 center to center. Funny thing, I open the curtain to a pain glass window and it throws it's "voice" down the hall about 5 feet. I also run a sub so that may have an equal effect on how much bass I am willing to spare from the 1C, however, I find the richer stereo sound with the sub filter on the pre at 60 hertz, box tuned at 30 and the variable open full 180 degrees out of phase. I also find complimentary surround better when the surrounds are wired out of phase as well.yes, flat against the wall is bad for most speakers. But for SDA 1Cs, the manual says that and straight up (no toe in nor out). Given his room's size, isn't 3ft from side wall too much?
I have the manual as well but do not forget that the room dimensions he is working with is not what the manual suggests for room size or shape either. If you change one dimension (suggested room size) you might also consider changing another. My suggestions are based on (not as much as others, but more than some) a few hours of moving things around and trying different distances. I would suggest he tries the 6-8 inch. But I would also suggest bringing them into the room some. Finding the balance between side wall reflections and SDA effect might not be as simple as 6 to 8 inches.Too much **** to list.... -
This post should be deleted since just about every piece of advice is wrong.
I couldn't agree more! As should the associated account due to its owners inability to comprehend what he reads and the high percentage of arguments he causes due to such inattention.Room calculators don't work for SDA's because of their inherent nature, they aren't like a traditional speaker.
I dont give a fat rats patootie and a rolling doughnut whether it's SDA, Belles Canto or a jackhammer! Sound waves will react the same in any given room dimension regardless of source. Don't confuse what I just said for "Sound the same".Best to follow the speaker manufacturer's recommendation. The rarity of mono blocks or lack thereof has nothing to do if they will work with certain SDA's.
Definitely best to follow the manufacturers recommendations when setting up in the recommended size listening space. However, If it's not possible to listen in the suggested size room...do what ever sounds good. Don't tell me your SDA's aren't (weren't) 10"s from the back wall Brock. OH NO! Do you realize what you have done? You have tried something new and gone against the recommended settings. Don't let that info get out. People might consider you a rebel. A goer against the grain. Or worse yet...an audiophile with creative tendencies.By their very nature every single mono block is non-common ground so you have two choices.
Ding Ding Ding! Congrats Brock. On point with another statement of the critically obvious. However, there are sets of monoblocks in the same chassis that are NOT common ground. Best to check with a multimeter in just a few seconds than to risk some phone jockey going home and reading the correct specs in a journal thinking to himself "Gee I hope that guy didnt fry $3k worth of speakers on my bad advise".1) IF you have late enough serial number 1C's you can build/buy an AI-1 interphase cable which allows all non-common ground amps to be run with SDA's (mono or not) 2) some mono block amps can safely have the negative speaker terminals tied together to make the connection common ground. For number 2 ALWAYS check with the amp manufacturer.
Though he first half of this statement is true you have again shown your inability to comprehend. I see F1 touched it already but for concerns on monoblock amps. (i.e. stereo monoblock amps) Check the neg- posts for continuity. Or the OP could, as you suggest...sit on the phone for a few hours waiting for someone to say, "The spec sheet say yes but you better check it with a multimeter, just to be safe."Too much **** to list.... -
Dan, obviously you have already received some very good info. On your room, you need to try it. My room is 15x26 and is far from perfect.
Ceiling slopes 12' to 8' on the narrow side of room (15') , the side my 1Cs are on.
Right speaker has door opening 3' from speaker.
73" Mits hdcrtrp between speakers and have speakers 2" in front of tv which makes back of speakers 27" from back wall.
I sit 20' from speakers.
Even with all those problems I love how my 1Cs sound and they are staying put.
Give it a try. I do have 3' side walls and 6' or so distance between them. I have placed acoustic panels best I can do as well.Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs -
I thank everyone for the input,I'm going to think on this one.My living room and family room are separated by a wall I guess I could knock out that wall and double the space.Ive been thinking about doing that for years anyway.Hell I need another project anyway.:rolleyes:
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Dan, obviously you have already received some very good info. On your room, you need to try it. My room is 15x26 and is far from perfect.
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Even with all those problems I love how my 1Cs sound and they are staying put.
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+1 ^^^ Most people are dealing with rooms that aren't "perfect". Sometimes you just have to do what you can, place them where they sound best, and enjoy the music. Don't get me wrong though, that doesn't mean you should try to run a set of 1.2's in a closet!
Acoustic treatment can go a LONG way towards correcting bad room dimensions also. Room nulls and modes can all but be eliminated with enough corner bass traps and wall traps. Of course, for you married guys, the WAF comes heavily into play here...
Give it a shot. If it doesn't work out, you can flip the 1C's for probably no money lost. -
It seems the group is a bit argumentative today. Some good advice and some not so good advice so far.
Mono blocks that can be strapped should be ok. Stereo amps that are Monoblock inside may be ok as long as they can be strapped. Just cause there in the same chassis does not mean they are SDA friendly.
Room calculators suck with SDA's. The crosstalk makes them wrong everytime. Trust me i have tried and always have issues.
I would shoot for about 2ft from the side walls and about 6-8" from the back wall. That should give you a sweet spot about 9ft away.
Don't toe them in at all. It messes up the SDA effect.
If you are getting boomy sound I would suggest a tapestry or drapery on the wall the speakers are facing. And possibly bass traps in the corners.
Have fun. -
I will also add to the above there are non-common ground amps that are neither dual mono (in the same chassis) nor individual mono blocks. And IMO, 2 feet from the side walls is too close, I'd say 3 feet minmum if you can swing it."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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Room calculators suck with SDA's. The crosstalk makes them wrong everytime. Trust me i have tried and always have issues.
Have fun.
Just a quick one here Joe...
From the Polk Audio manual for Sda 1c,2B, CRS+. I know most of us have a copy but just to clarify. ( ^%$# Adobe! It wont convert to MSO.doc for me so.)
"The decision on where to place the speakers is a matter of personal preference as well as acoustics. The unique design of the SDA's makes them unusually free of room dependent acoustic effects. However, careful attention to set-up instructions and placement suggestions is essential to the correct functioning of the SDA."
I find it alarming that room acoustics are such an effect when it says right here in the manual it is free from the effects of room acoustics. In light of this info I must bolster my position by saying a properly set acoustic room couldn't hurt. (dimention's wise that is) I completely concur as far as getting the set the OP mentioned and trying them.
I guess I peed in a few Wheaties by parting the "sacred set" but trust me y'all...the weren't made of gold. That said....if you don't like the set you acquire, OldFatDogs,and they are Black Vinyl finish, I will happily, given they are a minimum of 8/10 condish (and reasonably close location), take them off your hands.Too much **** to list.... -
No speakers are "unusually free of room dependent acoustic effects."
Notice the "However" after that statement. -
I hear ya bro...quote from the manual. My only concern is that the OP not miss out on an opportunity to own a set of the most amazing speakers ever built. Whether his current location provides optimal dimensional characteristics or not, owning such a set is something that not all can say they have done. Heck! Some haven't even heard them.Conradicles wrote: »No speakers are "unusually free of room dependent acoustic effects."
Notice the "However" after that statement.Too much **** to list.... -
Just a quick one here Joe...
From the Polk Audio manual for Sda 1c,2B, CRS+. I know most of us have a copy but just to clarify. ( ^%$# Adobe! It wont convert to MSO.doc for me so.)
"The decision on where to place the speakers is a matter of personal preference as well as acoustics. The unique design of the SDA's makes them unusually free of room dependent acoustic effects. However, careful attention to set-up instructions and placement suggestions is essential to the correct functioning of the SDA."
I find it alarming that room acoustics are such an effect when it says right here in the manual it is free from the effects of room acoustics. In light of this info I must bolster my position by saying a properly set acoustic room couldn't hurt. (dimention's wise that is) I completely concur as far as getting the set the OP mentioned and trying them.
I guess I peed in a few Wheaties by parting the "sacred set" but trust me y'all...the weren't made of gold. That said....if you don't like the set you acquire, OldFatDogs,and they are Black Vinyl finish, I will happily, given they are a minimum of 8/10 condish (and reasonably close location), take them off your hands.
I will add, there is no speaker in existence where room acoustics do not play a roll in how they sound. How much treatment is another story, and yes SDA's are quite forgiving in that respect. That being said I suggested room treatments because the size of the room makes me think it will be a bit boomy or have some standing wave issues for just about any speaker. I have used square rooms before and they always needed acoustic treatments.
And as a side note, you actually sound like the person that is mad at the world. I hold no ill will toward you about what you did to your speakers. It would be beneath me to treat you any different. I didn't quote your post earlier and call you out. You did that to me. And I would be upset if I were wrong, but I have owned SDA's for the past 20yrs and understand there strengths and weaknesses. So my suggestions are still quite valid. -
I love it when people with little to no experience with said SDA's start telling new owners this and that about set-up, etc. It's quite comical actually, as if they have any clue from actually owning an listening to SDA's for an extended period of time. Let's see for me including selling them when new, setting them up when new and working with owners, to owning them..........it's been about 23 years of experience with various SDA's in various places with various gear, etc. Sure there were some gaps in there......but maybe I know from experience.
SDA's are a little different and while you don't need a science degree to figure them out, some very minor tweaks here and there that are counterintuitive to a conventional speaker really go a long way in improving the experience.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I will also add that my current living room is probably a tad too small for the 1C's and I need room treatments. I say "too small" because when I really get on the volume it's obvious the lack of room treatments and smallness of the room is impacting the sound. At normal to above normal volume they sound fantastic, but when you want to shake the foundation the roon interactions cause some issues.
I hope to tighten things up with some well placed treatments so I can listen at foundation cracking volume occasionally when the mood strikes. That in no way means I want to get rid of them or think they are too large for the room, becasue 95% of the time when listening at even above normal levels they sound fantastic.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I will add, there is no speaker in existence where room acoustics do not play a roll in how they sound. How much treatment is another story, and yes SDA's are quite forgiving in that respect. That being said I suggested room treatments because the size of the room makes me think it will be a bit boomy or have some standing wave issues for just about any speaker. I have used square rooms before and they always needed acoustic treatments.
And as a side note, you actually sound like the person that is mad at the world. I hold no ill will toward you about what you did to your speakers. It would be beneath me to treat you any different. I didn't quote your post earlier and call you out. You did that to me. And I would be upset if I were wrong, but I have owned SDA's for the past 20yrs and understand there strengths and weaknesses. So my suggestions are still quite valid.
I am not mad at any one or anything Joe, nor I am calling you out. If I came across that way I apologize as it was not my intention. I in no way intended to discount your view or suggestions. I did have a few drinks last night so my wording may have been a bit off. I was trying to make a joke as it were about how easy it is to read the same text and come up with totally different interpretations. I feel the reality of things with audio has been and always will be ..you gotta try it.Too much **** to list.... -
I love it when people with little to no experience with said SDA's start telling new owners this and that about set-up, etc. It's quite comical actually, as if they have any clue from actually owning an listening to SDA's for an extended period of time. Let's see for me including selling them when new, setting them up when new and working with owners, to owning them..........it's been about 23 years of experience with various SDA's in various places with various gear, etc. Sure there were some gaps in there......but maybe I know from experience.
SDA's are a little different and while you don't need a science degree to figure them out, some very minor tweaks here and there that are counterintuitive to a conventional speaker really go a long way in improving the experience.
H9
It is not your knowledge that is in question most of the time Brock but thanks for another round of "Resume' time with H9". It is your holeish arrogance and seemingly uncontrollable tendency to belittle people that regard less of hours or years of experience can, and do, bring experiences that the set in stone by the book folk can't, or choose not to, divulge. Why is it when ever you get involved with thread it turns to argument? Almost everytime?Too much **** to list.... -
I am not mad at any one or anything Joe, nor I am calling you out. If I came across that way I apologize as it was not my intention. I in no way intended to discount your view or suggestions. I did have a few drinks last night so my wording may have been a bit off. I was trying to make a joke as it were about how easy it is to read the same text and come up with totally different interpretations. I feel the reality of things with audio has been and always will be ..you gotta try it.
No problem, hope I didn't sound like an arse either? -
Right 1C, your posts are never combative in nature as you are so well versed in prose that no one ever mistakes your intentions or the ideas you are trying to convey. Oh wait, that did happen as you seemingly called out Joe, but then backtracked when you were called out. Written word on a BB is never better than face to face. Intrepret things however you want, just beware your intrepretation probably doesn't always align with the intention of the writer and that's on you.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
We finally see eye to eye on something. But just think. if when we do meet face to face it will be more like eye to belly button ahaha. All aside, at least when someone reacts to my post in a manner that I wasn't expecting I have no problem stepping back and making sure my intentions are made clear.Right 1C, your posts are never combative in nature as you are so well versed in prose that no one ever mistakes your intentions or the ideas you are trying to convey. Oh wait, that did happen as you seemingly called out Joe, but then backtracked when you were called out. Written word on a BB is never better than face to face. Intrepret things however you want, just beware your intrepretation probably doesn't always align with the intention of the writer and that's on you.
H9
Honeslty, Heiney, I like arguing pointless crap with you because your pool of resources in that area appears to be endless but man I am just to tired for any more of this this week. I need some Rand R at the water. Have a good weekend all.
To the OP...go buy the effin speaks! They are amazing in any situation.
1cToo much **** to list.... -
SDA1C P.M. sent to seller.You guys crack me up,very passionate about what you believe.I have been wanting a set of these since I signed up to the forums.It will be a good road trip for my son and I.I'm not getting any flack about buying the speakers its the trip to S.F. without the wife that im getting the flack about.:cheesygrin:
Anyway that's where things are at now.Whats the best way to travel with these in the back of a truck? On blankets
on backs down?Thanks again I will keep you updated when I know more. -
We finally see eye to eye on something. But just think. if when we do meet face to face it will be more like eye to belly button ahaha.
Why would that be... are you planning to be on your knees when you meet him?:cheesygrin:The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Oldfatdogs wrote: »SDA1C P.M. sent to seller.You guys crack me up,very passionate about what you believe.I have been wanting a set of these since I signed up to the forums.It will be a good road trip for my son and I.I'm not getting any flack about buying the speakers its the trip to S.F. without the wife that im getting the flack about.:cheesygrin:
Anyway that's where things are at now.Whats the best way to travel with these in the back of a truck? On blankets
on backs down?Thanks again I will keep you updated when I know more.
Congrats and good on you involving your son. I lay them on their back in my Expedition. You could place pillows or whatever under them if you can secure everything.
Congrats, you are in for a treat.Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
