New Surge Protector

evhudsons wrote: »

... it would be nice to learn more about different options.

For over 100 years, facilities that can not have damage have earthed a 'whole house' protector. And waste no money on protectors adjacent to electronics. Essential to protection is a protector within feet of what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Earth ground.

Telcos suffer maybe 100 surges with each storm. Their protector is located as close as possible to the earthing system. And up to 50 meters distant from electronics. That separation is increases protection.

Telcos suffer about 100 surges per storm. How often is your entire town without phone service for four days while they replace their computers? Homeowners are concerned with maybe one surge every seven years. Informed homeowners spend about $1 per appliance for a similar and superior solution for everything.

These concepts were taught in elementary school science. Lightning seeks earth ground. So a 20,000 amp transient selects an electrically shortest connection via what is more conductive - a wooden church steeple. But wood is not very conductive. So 20,000 amps creates a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Church steeple destroyed.

Franklin installed a lightning rod. Many see the rod thinking that does protection. It doesn't. A rod only connects to what does protection - earth ground. 20,000 amps on a conductive wire to earth creates a near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage means near zero energy. Nothing destroyed.

Surge protection does same. A lightning strike to wires far down the street is a potentially destructive connection to earth via household appliances. Do 2 cm parts inside a protector adjacent to each appliance stop that surge? Of course not. For over 100 years, reliable facilities connected each wire short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth. Either directly. Or via a 'whole house' protector. Just like Franklin's lightning rods, the irrelevant surge always has a conductive path to earth. That surge does not create high voltages. Its energy dissipates harmlessly in earth. All appliances protected by only one earthed ?whole house? protector.

Any facility that can never suffer damage always uses that well proven solution. Any homeowner can purchase same for about $1 per protected appliance. More responsible companies provide them including Siemens, Intermatic, ABB, General Electric, Square D, Leviton, Keison, and Intermatic. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in both Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. This superior solution costs less money. Means even the dishwasher and bathroom GFCIs are protected. What most need protection during a surge? Smoke detectors.

This superior solution also costs tens or 100 times less money. Is mostly unknown to many educated by advertising and hearsay.

A telco employee could even get fired for installing those plug-in protectors. Telcos need protectors that actually connect to protection. Informed consumers obtain a similar and well proven solution for about $1 per appliance. Informed consumers also upgrade the only item that does all protection - single point earth ground.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground ... just like Franklin's lightning rod. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Always.

zingo wrote: »

It looks like plenty of current, suppression and filtering, plus voltage regulation in a no BS component.

The above post said why that Tripplite does virtually nothing useful. If it has some numbers that say otherwise, then post that number. I don't see any.

Posted was what every homeowner has needed since 1970. That costs about $1 per appliance. That does the many things that an expensive Tripplite does not even claim to do.

For example, did Tripplite forget to mention a wire that carries noise and surges around the Tripplite and into electronics? Why did they forget to discuss this?

Did they forget to mention that all electronics routinely adjusts those same voltage variations internally? Did they forget to mention that your incandescent bulbs can dim to 50% intensity. That is ideal perfect power for all electronics. Why did they forget to mention that? And how often is your AC voltage dropping that low? So the expensive Tripplite will cure what does not happen and what is already done inside all electronics. Why would you spend so much money to cure a strawman?

Defined previously were anomalies that must be averted. So that superior protection inside every appliance is not overwhelmed. Tripplite does not address those anomalies. Please read those posts before jumping to conclusions based only on appearance.

Glowrdr wrote: »

- but it's hard to follow anything with Westom chiming in about how everything is crap except for whole house solutions.

Only two types of protectors exist. Take a $4 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. And that is all plug-in protectors. Some may have more joules that others. But they are all similar.

The other is a 'whole house' type. That is the only solution found anywhere that damage cannot happen.

Why do you think other options exist? If your Monster is so different from an APC or Belkin, then where are the numbers?

You have two options. The power strip with ten cent protector parts. All have similar spec numbers. Or the 'whole house' protector that connects to the only item that does protection. Only other differences are in their numbers.

If I am wrong, then post manufacturer spec numbers that show my error. Not a rhetorical question. I keep asking everyone for hard facts. Some only post profanity and personal accuastions. If you think the Monster was better than the less expensive Belkin, then manufacturer numbers are posted to learn why. Then learn more from those numbers - what would answer your question.

Only two types of protectors exist. If you think otherwise, then post the numbers. Please stop making emotional complaints. Those don't result in the answer you seek.

Glowrdr wrote: »

I'm on here, to get the answers. If I had all the data, then obviously I would not need to post here. And the same arguement could be said about your posts. Coming on here and saying "There are only two types of protectors" over and over in the same thread means nothing either. Where are your numbers?

Provided with numbers were over 20 reasons why a protector adjacent to an appliance is ineffective protection. Or what the NIST called "useless". Since many only posted their feelings and personal attacks, then no questions were asked to learn from 100 years of well proven science.

I guess you are now asking to learn more. Plenty of facts were provided by each protector manufacturer. Either the specification lists each type of surge, with protection from that surge. Or it does not do that protection.

Well, the plug-in protector does protect from one type of surge that is typically not destructive. We can discuss engineering numbers behind those specs. Or I can continue discussing layman's principles that expose ineffective type protectors. For example, a protector adjacent to electronics can only do two things. Either is absorbs that energy. Or it blocks the current. Monster, Belkin, et al protectors claim to do neither. And for good reason. Destructive surges cannot be blocked and cannot be absorbed. So those protectors do near zero protection. And call it 100% protection in subjective advertising.

A surge is a current source. That means voltage increases as necessary to blow through to earth. Nothing stops that surge. A destructive surge is hundreds of thousands of joules. Read each protector's spec numbers. How does its hundreds of joules absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. It only protects from tiny (hundreds joules) surges that cannot damage appliances. Then it is called a surge protector. Then it sells a $4 power strip with ten cent protector parts for $25 or $150.

Professionals who study this stuff define what effective protectors do. From the NIST (US government research agency) is:
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What
> these protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge,
> but simply divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

The NIST then says:
> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if
> grounding is not done properly.

The NIST identifies that Tripplite is "useless". Dr Kenneth Schneider also says, in layman's terms, what is necessary to have protection:
> As previously mentioned, the connection to earth ground can not be over emphasized.

From his paper:
>Conceptually, lightning protection devices are switches to ground. Once a threatening
> surge is detected, a lightning protection device grounds the incoming signal connection
> point of the equipment being protected. Thus, redirecting the threatening surge on a
> path-of-least resistance (impedance) to ground where it is absorbed.
>Any lightning protection device must be composed of two "subsystems," a switch
> which is essentially some type of switching circuitry and a good ground connection
> -to allow dissipation of the surge energy. The switch, of course, dominates the design
> and the cost. Yet, the need for a good ground connection can not be emphasized
> enough. Computer equipment has been damaged by lightning, not because of the
> absence of a protection device, but because inadequate attention was paid to
> grounding the device properly.

Everything written by professionals for layman.

Do not ground an appliance. Ground a surge protector. For example, a protector without a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth is ineffective. What the NIST also calls "useless". That Tripplite and APC are perfect examples. And are equivalent. Obscenely expensive. Spec numbers confirm no protection from a typically destructive surge.

These concepts were originally taught in elementary school science. A 'whole house' protector does for appliances what a Ben Franklin lightning rod does for the house. Same solution. Protection is defined by where energy dissipates.

Advertising means the majority here did not even know that all phone lines already have a 'whole house' protector installed for free. A protector that has existed for longer than anyone here. And that is required both by code and Federal regulations. How many knew all phone lines already have a superior solution?

Well some will reply angry. Emotion when they did not even know about that telco 'installed for free' protector. Some will post lies about a $200 protector when best protection for all household appliances costs about $1 per appliance. A minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps so that even 20,000 amps lightning strikes cause no damage. Equivalent solutions can be installed even by renters - as noted earlier.

Others could learn how to have the best protection by asking further questions; by not attacking the messenger. A simple concept virtually unknown to most all homeowners. Protection is always defined by where energy dissipates. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. No earth ground defines a protector that the NIST calls "useless".

BWilberg266 also identified this problem:

as far as monster goes...they're all fakes (especially the ones bought in stores for $500) charging crazy amounts of money for their name. The amount of cash people drop on the Monster name instead of putting that money towards actual quality gear just drives me nuts.

Monster is only selling the same ineffective protector circuits sold by APC and Tripplite. Informed consumers purchase from more responsible manufacturers listed previously.

westom wrote: »

Posted was what every homeowner has needed since 1970. That costs about $1 per appliance. That does the many things that an expensive Tripplite does not even claim to do.

Maybe I missed it as your posting style is bizarre to say the least, but what exactly is this $1 per appliance protection you keep harping about? Show me detailed information, links would also be helpful.

F1nut wrote: »

Maybe I missed it as your posting style is bizarre to say the least, but what exactly is this $1 per appliance protection you keep harping about?

Go into any electrical supply house. Ask for their 'whole house' protector. Provided by companies any 'guy' would know for their quality and integrity including: GE, ABB, Siemens, Intermatic, Square D, Clipsal, Keison, and Leviton to name but a few. A Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes and Home Depot for "less than $50".

These well proven solutions always have a dedicated wire to make a low impedance ('less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground. And are rated for at least 50,000 amps. So that even direct lightning strikes (ie 20,000 amps) are earthed.

Walk into any Lowes and go touch it. Most people have not a clue what has been posted without first touching it. Because these well proven solutions are so new to almost everyone.

Good 'whole house protectors do not connect L-N, L-G, and N-G. Protection is only about a connection from each incoming wire short to single point earth ground.

Cable and satellite dish need no protector. A wire from each cable to earth does better protection. Telephone needs no protector. The telco installed one for free. But again, it is only as effective as the earth ground that only a homeowner provides and must maintain.

Multiple AC wires enter. One (neutral) must already connect short to earth. All others must make the same earth ground connection via the 'whole house' protector. If any wire enters without that short connection to earth, then a surge can be inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

'Whole house' protectors are the only solution always found in any high reliability facility. It has existed in every telephone switching center (CO) long before those centers contained transistors. But most will only be learning about this well proven solution for the first time. Most will never grasp something this new the first time. Therefore go to a store and touch one. Notice the always required wire that makes a dedicated connection to earth. Also view something even more important - ten foot copper clad ground rods.

zingo wrote: »

Thanks for the eariler help guys and I'm going to get the Tripp Lite LCR2400. If you have another reasonable alternative or you want to continue this conversation, please PM me. I give up and this thread is now all yours westom...

My browser hates the layout of the site for some reason, but for all intents and purposes what you bought will be fine zingo, as I mentioned earlier.

westcom, a whole house surge has a time and place. Those who live in a condo or apartment may not be able to add such a device. Those who live in houses may not want to. It's a great idea, but whole house surges still let large amounts of current through, meaning sensitive electronics can still be fried. Also, making generaliztions on brand and such is dangerous, as some of the whole house surges are different from what you claim (line to line, etc.).

F1nut wrote: »

Maybe I missed it as your posting style is bizarre to say the least, but what exactly is this $1 per appliance protection you keep harping about? Show me detailed information, links would also be helpful.

I still don't understand what I supposed to buy. His whole post talks about nothing and says to go into lowes and touch it. Touch what? A link was asked to be provided, if you can't provide a link to show what your talking about but telling people to walk into a store and touch it is a little hard to fathom.

cstmar01 wrote: »

I still don't understand what I supposed to buy.

Why is this so hard to fathom? Go to the store. Only say, "Cutler-Hammer whole house protector." Then watch a salesman put you in front of it. How can that be any simpler? Why do so many so fear something so new?

Or ask your electric company for their 'whole house' protector. How hard is that? Only when something so new creates fear.

tonyb apparently has something so new as to also create fear. But that is a plug-in solution.

Since a certain someone seems to have great difficulty conveying the subject matter, here are a few links that explain it clearly.

http://wholehousesurgeprotector.org/

Take note of the following;

First, no matter what model you buy, a point of service suppressor is simply not enough to protect your expensive electronics and appliances from some surges. In reality its best to have a whole house surge protector installed by a qualified electrician in conjunction with point of service suppressors connected to your more expensive equipment. This provides the extra assurance and peace of mind knowing that your home is safe. Installing a whole house surge protector yourself will usually lead to headaches and decreased peace of mind because you will constantly be wondering if you got everything correct.

Second, and conversely, a whole house surge protector alone will not provide an adequate "blanket coverage" for all of your equipment or appliances. If you are going to invest any significant amount of money at all, its best to make sure you are completely safe from devastating surges.

http://reviewsurgeprotector.com/whole-house-surge-protector.html



Take note of the following;

External surges have much more power behind them and can affect all devices in the entire home regardless of the point of entry. Because they are made to defend against larger surges, whole house surge protectors clamp at higher voltages (usually starting at 500 volts). The downside of this is that smaller surges will still get through, unless you have a second line of defense (point-of-use device) to protect you. With consideration to lightning, it is unlikely that any device will protect against a direct hit on a power line, even from several miles away.

As you can see a whole house protector is not the end all that someone has made it out to be. It's quite clear that secondary protection should be used for even greater peace of mind, but that in the event of a direct hit all bets are off. Obviously, the safest method for protecting your gear in a storm is still to unplug it. Something I think most of us already knew.

There's another part of the equation that a lot of whole house protectors will not address, which is noise in the line. This is where a good surge/power conditioner comes into play.

These come up on Audiogon from time to time, but act quickly as they sell in minutes. They go for around $200.00 used. It's a damn shame they stopped making them.

http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/detail/upc-200-power-conditioner?cat=power-classics

Be sure to click "continue reading."