Tube Amps vs SS Amps...
Toolfan66
Posts: 17,982
Just a quick review as I am not the greatest in doing so.
I spent the day listening to my Mono Tube amps and my Adcom GFA-5802,I switched between them twice. I know it's probably not a fair test between the two but my review is more on the clarity and lower end between em.
As great as the Adcom is the seperation and the width of the sound stage of the tube amps is nothing more then spetacular, The blacks are black and the detail is out of this world.
When I hooked back up the Adcom it seemed that I had more bass more umpft.
But what I did notice was that the bass wasn't as detailed as it was with the tubes. So when I hooked back up the tubes it was what I thought The Bass wasn't lacking it was more detailed and tighter.
I guess this is just one more step into the rabit hole but I would have a hard time listening to the Adcom in my 2 channel rig again.
I have been listening to these tube amps for a couple of weeks but today I really got a chance to sit and really play around and with having my AI-1 done,and the holidays being behind us, it was nice.
Like I said I don't think it's a fair comparision.maybe like comparing apples and oranges but fun non the less.
Back to the tubes and deeper in the hole I go.
Tubes do rule!!!
Larry.
I spent the day listening to my Mono Tube amps and my Adcom GFA-5802,I switched between them twice. I know it's probably not a fair test between the two but my review is more on the clarity and lower end between em.
As great as the Adcom is the seperation and the width of the sound stage of the tube amps is nothing more then spetacular, The blacks are black and the detail is out of this world.
When I hooked back up the Adcom it seemed that I had more bass more umpft.
But what I did notice was that the bass wasn't as detailed as it was with the tubes. So when I hooked back up the tubes it was what I thought The Bass wasn't lacking it was more detailed and tighter.
I guess this is just one more step into the rabit hole but I would have a hard time listening to the Adcom in my 2 channel rig again.
I have been listening to these tube amps for a couple of weeks but today I really got a chance to sit and really play around and with having my AI-1 done,and the holidays being behind us, it was nice.
Like I said I don't think it's a fair comparision.maybe like comparing apples and oranges but fun non the less.
Back to the tubes and deeper in the hole I go.
Tubes do rule!!!
Larry.
Post edited by Toolfan66 on
Comments
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Nice review
The thing I love about tubes is how forgiving they seem to be
I can hook up an mp3 player to my tube integrated and it realy is a lot of fun to listen too .Even crappy songs I have played from youtube still sound good to my ears -
I'm sure with a better SS amp you could get what you're looking for.
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Sshhh.....don't let the AVS "dementors" hear you!!
They will suck all the joy from your world with all this talk that amps can sound different.
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
I'm sure with a better SS amp you could get what you're looking for.
I have to agree there is so much to choose from.
Pass Labs and Krell just might do it but I don't know since I haven't even had my eyes on one let alone my ears.. -
Erik Tracy wrote: »Sshhh.....don't let the AVS "dementors" hear you!!
They will suck all the joy from your world with all this talk that amps can sound different.
They aren't comparing tubes to solid state when they say that. -
intangible wrote: »They aren't comparing tubes to solid state when they say that.
I just saw a thread where they did...well preamps.
I've seen multitudes of others that claim as long as amps are 'designed correctly' that they all sound the same.
Shhhhaaright.....
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
They may be right. The only problem is most of them aren't "designed correctly".Erik Tracy wrote: »I've seen multitudes of others that claim as long as amps are 'designed correctly' that they all sound the same.
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
The thing to bear in mind here is that (virtually) all loudspeakers present complex reactive loads to an amplifier as a function of frequency. Unless an amplifier has (identically) zero impedance (not to mention infinite, flat frequency response, zero phase shift, zero distortion of any sort including the profoundly nonlinear and complex kinds) the amp and speaker will interact and you may (or may not) hear a difference for any given speaker with different amps - even extremely "well designed" (not to mention well executed) examples.
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Looks like another one lost to an overdose of harmonic distortion and sent into an audible haze.:frown:TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »
Tubes do rule!!! -
mhardy6647 wrote: »The thing to bear in mind here is that (virtually) all loudspeakers present complex reactive loads to an amplifier as a function of frequency. Unless an amplifier has (identically) zero impedance (not to mention infinite, flat frequency response, zero phase shift, zero distortion of any sort including the profoundly nonlinear and complex kinds) the amp and speaker will interact and you may (or may not) hear a difference for any given speaker with different amps - even extremely "well designed" (not to mention well executed) examples.
Nicely said. -
Sorry, the intelligent ones don't do that.
The claim I have seen is that a properly functioning amp has an essentially flat frequency response, and the THD of a solid state amp is lower than the remainder of the system to the point that it is inconsequential; therefore, two properly functioning solid state amps of appropriate current/power for the driven speakers should be audibly indistinguishable. This seems logically sound.
I don't want to derail the thread, though. I'm quite jealous of your amps, TOOLFORLIFEFAN; I'm sure they sound fantastic. -
Looks like another one lost to an overdose of harminic distortion and sent into an audible haze.:frown:
:frown::redface: -
intangible wrote: »Sorry, the intelligent ones don't do that.
The claim I have seen is that a properly functioning amp has an essentially flat frequency response, and the THD of a solid state amp is lower than the remainder of the system to the point that it is inconsequential; therefore, two properly functioning solid state amps of appropriate current/power for the driven speakers should be audibly indistinguishable. This seems logically sound.
I don't want to derail the thread, though. I'm quite jealous of your amps, TOOLFORLIFEFAN; I'm sure they sound fantastic.
No worry about the derail,I like to read others input.. -
Hey Larry, just replace the word Adcom [in bold] with "SS" in the aforementioned and you just summed up 80% of why I love tube gear -vs- SS. Isn't it amazing that great ears hear alike, though they have never met?TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »I spent the day listening to my Mono Tube amps and my Adcom GFA-5802,I switched between them twice. I know it's probably not a fair test between the two but my review is more on the clarity and lower end between em.
As great as the Adcom is the separation and the width of the sound stage of the tube amps is nothing more then spectacular, The blacks are black and the detail is out of this world.
When I hooked back up the Adcom it seemed that I had more bass more umpft. But what I did notice was that the bass wasn't as detailed as it was with the tubes. So when I hooked back up the tubes it was what I thought The Bass wasn't lacking it was more detailed and tighter.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Hey Larry, just replace the word Adcom [in bold] with "SS" in the aforementioned and you just summed up 80% of why I love tube gear -vs- SS. Isn't it amazing that great ears hear alike, though they have never met?
I tell you everytime I think I find a happy place something better comes along,and along came TUBES!!! -
Welcome, my friend. Step right on in and enjoy.....~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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mhardy6647 wrote: »The thing to bear in mind here is that (virtually) all loudspeakers present complex reactive loads to an amplifier as a function of frequency. Unless an amplifier has (identically) zero impedance (not to mention infinite, flat frequency response, zero phase shift, zero distortion of any sort including the profoundly nonlinear and complex kinds) the amp and speaker will interact and you may (or may not) hear a difference for any given speaker with different amps - even extremely "well designed" (not to mention well executed) examples.
Alright, since the thread has already moved off the original topic, I'm curious about this. I'm not an electrical engineer, so I don't have the greatest grasp on all of this stuff; maybe you can help me understand this statement.
How does an amplifier "interact" with a speaker? Why would a speaker interact differently with two different amps? -
Synergy.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Yes, but it's not reality.intangible wrote: »The claim I have seen is that a properly functioning amp has an essentially flat frequency response, and the THD of a solid state amp is lower than the remainder of the system to the point that it is inconsequential; therefore, two properly functioning solid state amps of appropriate current/power for the driven speakers should be audibly indistinguishable. This seems logically sound.
Zobels everywhere will lessen the differences from amp to amp.mhardy6647 wrote: »The thing to bear in mind here is that (virtually) all loudspeakers present complex reactive loads to an amplifier as a function of frequency. Unless an amplifier has (identically) zero impedance (not to mention infinite, flat frequency response, zero phase shift, zero distortion of any sort including the profoundly nonlinear and complex kinds) the amp and speaker will interact and you may (or may not) hear a difference for any given speaker with different amps - even extremely "well designed" (not to mention well executed) examples."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
A couple of examples, Class A amps have no crossover distortion. Also, the output impedance of the amp also has an effect on how the speaker will sound.intangible wrote: »How does an amplifier "interact" with a speaker? Why would a speaker interact differently with two different amps?"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Yes, but it's not reality.
Zobels everywhere will lessen the differences from amp to amp.
Kind of a sledgehammer solution :-) but I say that as a fleapower kind of guy. If one has hundreds of watts burning a hole in one's pocket, Zobel away!
I am one just of those folks who just doesn't like a lot of passive components (chokes, capacitors, even resistors, as much as possible) between the source and the load. I realize it's something of a minority view!A couple of examples, Class A amps have no crossover distortion. Also, the output impedance of the amp also has an effect on how the speaker will sound.
For the record, while it is true that Class A amplifiers have no crossover distortion, the crossover distortion isn't a great example for "speaker interaction" - a push-pull amp will gladly display its crossover (notch) distortion into a purely resistive dummy load. "Ringing" on a square wave of an amp driving a reactive load (a real or simulated loudspeaker load) is probably a pretty good example.
I don't think that output impedance of an amp will have much consequence on waveform fidelity as long as the load is purely resistive (i.e., no capacitive or inductive component), such as a ribbon transducer. It certainly will with a traditional dynamic loudspeaker, or most electrostatics (e.g., my much beloved QUAD ESL-57s). -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »No worry about the derail,I like to read others input..
Hey, If you want a second opinion, send them to me for a few years and I will provide a nice review:biggrin:Pio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404 -
To vmaxer...While I do like the jovial part of your post, a review shouldn't take that long. 5 seconds is all it takes sometimes. Sometimes [when closely matched] it takes longer. When you are at DK's level, the same may apply but you can also provide more insightful observations and back it up with measurements.
To me, on the original topic....tubes -vs- SS? about a minute of full response audio is all I need until I have made my decision. So far in my audio journey? Tubes are the only thing to get me to achieve my goal. While it may not show on this post [my signature], I'm quite sure you will run across it at one point or two...~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Hey, If you want a second opinion, send them to me for a few years and I will provide a nice review:biggrin:
I will pass for now but your more then welcome to come over anytime
I would hate to see what it would take to ship these and cost to do so!!! I think these weigh about 100lbs each.. -
This link was fairly interesting; it appears to suggest that modern amplifiers output stages adjust to the varied low in real time, minimizing the influence of output impedance.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/audio/imped.html
I suppose I still don't understand why a speaker would assert a different influence on one amplifier than another. -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »I will pass for now but your more then welcome to come over anytime
I would hate to see what it would take to ship these and cost to do so!!! I think these weigh about 100lbs each..
Thanks, I think you know I was kiddin'. I would love to hear your system, I can't imagine how good it would sound. Maybe one day I will be able to get into tubes, (probably not at the level you are at), but better than what I have now.
If I am ever in your area, I will let you know. I don't travel much any more, but it looks like I may have to start again soon for work. I used to travel a lot, I am over it and prefer to be at home as much as I can now. Enjoy your system and thanks for all you do for us!!Pio Elete Pro 520
Panamax 5400-EX
Sunfire TGP 5
Micro Seiki DD-40 - Lyra-Dorian and Denon DL-160
PS Audio GCPH phono pre
Sunfire CG 200 X 5
Sunfire CG Sig 405 X 5
OPPO BDP-83 SE
SDA SRS 1.2TL Sonicaps and Mills
Ctr CS1000p
Sur - FX1000 x 4
SUB - SVS PB2-Plus
Workkout room:
Sony Bravia XBR- 32-Inch 1080p
Onkyo TX-DS898
GFA 555
Yamaha DVD-S1800BL/SACD
Ft - SDA 1C
Not being used:
RTi 38's -4
RT55i's - 2
RT25i's -2, using other 2 in shop
LSI 15's
CSi40
PSW 404 -
Again, synergy. As a good friend of the forum used to say......everything affects everything.intangible wrote: »I suppose I still don't understand why a speaker would assert a different influence on one amplifier than another.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
OK, without being so vague on that answer? Post another thread about that question please, as to not derail this thread.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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intangible wrote: »I suppose I still don't understand why a speaker would assert a different influence on one amplifier than another.
See if this helps any (it might not); I'll get back to you...
http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/imped.htm
Synergy is just a word; we're big boys and girls and can handle a little (just a little) of the actual nuts and bolts :-)
Download at least vol. 1 of Norman Crowhurst's great 1959 trilogy on "basic audio", available gratis on Pete Millett's wonderful www.tubebooks.org archive. Take a look at the chapters on "loudspeakers" and "impedance matching" and see if you get a flavor for what's going on. There's nothing fundamentally different between the tube amps of 1959 and the later solid state amps, except that transistors are devices with low output impedance and consequently (and for several reasons, including economics and weight!) impedance matching output transformers mostly fell out of fashion. Mostly... I do believe some of McIntosh's solid state amps still use Mac's well-known trifilar autoformers for output impedance matching.
http://www.tubebooks.org/Books/crowhurst_basic_1.pdf -
mhardy or any other that can answer this...sorry if this is considered hi-jacking but seems to fit the thread on tube aspects and info...as I have been reading trying to find out where to begin with tube equipment for a 2 chnl system I want to put together...it has been mentioned that tube amps match better with 89db or higher speakers especially horns...any explanations or is this some speculative preference
Thanks Ron2-channel: Modwright KWI-200 Integrated, Dynaudio C1-II Signatures
Desktop rig: LSi7, Polk 110sub, Dayens Ampino amp, W4S DAC/pre, Sonos, JRiver
Gear on standby: Melody 101 tube pre, Unison Research Simply Italy Integrated
Gone to new homes: (Matt Polk's)Threshold Stasis SA12e monoblocks, Pass XA30.5 amp, Usher MD2 speakers, Dynaudio C4 platinum speakers, Modwright LS100 (voltz), Simaudio 780D DAC
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